[NeedKarma]

(Please don't make me leave the skin I'm on to fiddle around with the one you're on.)

That's what I'm doing now. It very much depends on which skin the user is using. But it should be a blue "Quote User" button at the bottom of every post. I swithched to the LightV2 for this, not sure how to get to the Go skin to see what that looks like.

[HeadStrongBoy]

Quoting HeadStrongBoy:

Quoting Wondergirl:
"Do you see a Quote button at the bottom of your screen?"

I think I've finally found the "quote" button. Under the body of the original question is a "Manage" button. A sub-heading under Manage is "Quote and Answer." The problem remains that I don't know how to select the particular post that I wish to answer. It should be post specific. Try it now. (Please don't make me leave the skin I'm on to fiddle around with the one you're on.)

Is this it ?

[Wondergirl]

That's what I'm doing now. It very much depends on which skin the user is using. But it should be a blue "Quote User" button at the bottom of every post. I swithched to the LightV2 for this, not sure how to get to the Go skin to see what that looks like.

*sigh* Okay. I'll trudge over to GO to work on this.

[NeedKarma]

Is this it ?

Bingo!

<golf clap>

[HeadStrongBoy]

No Yes Is this helpful? Wondergirl 12900 Reputation
Jobs & Parenting Expert, Spring is coming... isn't it?? Quoting HeadStrongBoy:

I know that the explanation you've offered is the one accepted by mainstrean christianity. But the fact remains that it's WRONG. You and Mr. Camping have willy-nilly decided to go against hundreds of years of study and thought that have been put into this by some of the greatest minds that have ever existed?

So many interesting posts to reply to. So little time.

Thanks for the effort of showing me the buttons.

[Wondergirl]

Bingo!

This method of quoting on GO seems very labor intensive.

[NeedKarma]

This method of quoting on GO seems very labor intensive.

Well you know I agree with you there!

[Wondergirl]

*shudder* Sorry it took me so long to get back. I had to take a quick shower to get the GO globules off.

[HeadStrongBoy]

Quoting wondergirl:

You and Mr. Camping have willy-nilly decided to go against hundreds of years of study and thought that have been put into this by some of the greatest minds that have ever existed?

It isn't that Mr. Camping and many other of his followers are any smarter or any better people than the scholars you've mentioned. But there is a very important concept you should be aware of. It's called "progressive revelation." The words of the Bible, in the original languages, have remained unchanged for centuries but God has in these last days revealed much new understanding from those very same words. The books of Daniel and Revelation tell of a book that was "sealed up till the time of the end." That book is the Bible itself. God has in our time opened up, removed the seals so to speak, and those who are selected are able to understand much that has heretofore been misunderstood. The result is a gospel that sounds entirely foreign to those who are not accustomed to it.

[NeedKarma]

... those who are selected ...

How are these people selected?

[Wondergirl]

God has in these last days revealed much new understanding

To Mr. Camping.

those who are selected are able to understand much that has heretofore been misunderstood.

Mr. Camping again.

It isn't that Mr. Camping and many other of his followers are any smarter or any better people

They must be if he/they have this inside information.

The result is a gospel that sounds entirely foreign to those who are not accustomed to it.

You got that right!

[HeadStrongBoy]

NeedKarma 7629 Reputation
Über Member, I have a mustache and a pipe! Quoting HeadStrongBoy:

... those who are selected... How are these people selected?

Let me preface my answer by saying that knowledge of salvation is not the same thing as salvation itself. That could be subject of another discussion, because I recall dwashbur's emphatic denial of the preceding fact.

OK. How are they selected ? Poor choice of words on my part. I apologize. Being in a company of people such as we are, very proud, I should not want to give the impression that any kind of a spiritual elite has been created.

The simplest answer I can think of comes directly from the Bible. And I quote. "...God resisteth the proud but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6) In practice that translates into an attitude toward the Bible as the very words of God Himself. NOT the words of mere persons "inspired" by God.

[dwashbur]

Quoting dwashbur:
"But is this predestination just arbitrary? No. It's based on the fact that God knows who is going to come to him and who isn't. Humans have a choice: accept or reject. God knows what the choice will be, but we are still free and responsible to make that choice. It's hard to reconcile in the mind, because God is truly sovereign and we are truly responsible for our choice to accept or reject."

I know that the explanation you've offered is the one accepted by mainstrean christianity. But the fact remains that it's WRONG. One of the main points of confusion is that the concept of personal responsibility for living a moral life has become somehow entangled with God's total and complete autonomy when it comes to determining who has and who will become saved. The distinction needs to be made, and it needs to be maintained that no matter how morally or imorally a person may choose to live, that choice has nothing to do with how or why God chose the individuals that He chose to be saved.

I know there's more to be said, but that's my big point for now. If you want to find scriptural support or refutation for that point, we can do that next.

I couldn't care less what "mainstream christianity" says about anything. It's what I read in the Bible. But the fact is, it's not wrong, it's what the Bible actually teaches. I don't care how you or Mr. Camping or anybody else tries to get around it, this is what the Bible says: he who believes will be saved, whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, anyone who comes to me will not be cast out, and all the rest. I said nothing at all about "personal responsibility for living a moral life"; that's you twisting my words again. I only spoke of personal responsibility for receiving the salvation that God offers. That's it. Please don't read extra stuff into what I write. We are talking about this one and only area of responsibility, so stick to the subject, please.

In another post, it becomes clear that both Mr. Camping and you have thoroughly misunderstood the theological concept of Progressive Revelation. It refers only to the Bible, and the progress of God's revelation to humankind from Genesis to Revelation. The two of you have also really munged the statement in Daniel, because it refers only to what was given specifically to Daniel himself (look at it in context and without Mr. Camping muddying up the waters). And the "time of the end" refers to the time after Jesus' resurrection, not any specific point in the so-called Church Age.

Ever since Jesus rose, various people have popped up claiming to have some special revelation, and there are those who follow them. They may be sincere, but they're sincerely wrong. The Bible is the only reliable guide we have, and we are responsible to interpret it correctly. You are not doing so because you are following somebody who claims to have some of that special revelation. He doesn't. You don't. I don't. That's why we all need each other, because we're all equal in the Lord's eyes.

Hopefully on May 22 you'll realize this, and if you're ready to return to the fold, we'll be here to help you find your way.

[graceyj20]

]FIrst, I'd like to congratulate the original poster for not simply accepting things he/she is told but rather resolving why it is or is not accurate with gods word. This is something we all must do.

Ephesians 4:24 tell us we "should put on the new personality which was created according to God's will in true righteousness and loyalty" (NWT). What is this new personality? Ephesians 4:20-5:24 outlines this very well.

Romans 5:12 tells us that we are all sinful as we inherited it by birth. Many men (King David, Moses, Job, Saul/Paul) and women (Rahab of the city of Jericho) who were sinners (some even engaged at one time in gross sin) were yet declared righteous in the bible.

How could God consider them righteous? Romans 4:8 (NWT) tells us “Happy is the man whose sin Jehovah will by no means take into account.” God forgave their sins and accepted them as the righteous people that he deemed them to be. For those who had engaged in gross sin, this was of course after they discontinued their offensive conduct and showed remorse for it.

[HeadStrongBoy]

dwashbur:

he who believes will be saved, whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, anyone who comes to me will not be cast out, and all the rest. I said nothing at all about "personal responsibility for living a moral life"; that's you twisting my words again.

Excuse me. I have no intention of twisting your words. I'm only saying that God's command to us to believe the gospel can be considered a part of morality in general. My definition of morality is simply obedience to God's commandments. One of His commandments is that we should believe. If we then obey by believing, that is a good work we are doing.

[Wondergirl]

If we then obey by believing, that is a good work we are doing.

Yay for us! Work righteousness at its finest!

[HeadStrongBoy]

dwashbur:

Humans have a choice: accept or reject.

Absolutely not ! How do you explain John 6:39 ? The Father has given Jesus all of humanity that ever lived ? But many of them will reject the offer and not become saved ?

Show from scriptures that your view is correct. Don't sidestep by saying you will not repeat yourself.

[HeadStrongBoy]

Wondergirl this is for you.

Quoting HeadStrongBoy:

Quoting RickJ:
"God, through Christ, helps us to become righteous but it needs our active cooperation."

OK then how would you explain this ? "... that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you." Exodus 31:13.

"And they that found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron." (Numbers 15:33) "And the LORD said to Moses the man shall surely be put to death... " Numbers 15:35

[Wondergirl]

Wondergirl this is for you.

Why is that for me? I've said all along that we can accept Jesus as Savior only by the power of the Holy Spirit. We can reject Him of our own free will.

[HeadStrongBoy]

Wondergirl:

accept Jesus as Savior only by the power of the Holy Spirit. We can reject Him of our own free will.

I see the Bible saying that it's not about our accepting or rejecting. Don't you see that ?

God does the accepting or rejecting. You have it reversed, as do many who believe in so called human free will, particularly in reference to salvation.