[Allheart]

Chuff,

Feels odd for me to say I disagree with you about your own experiences. That doesn't seem quite right does it? Now, if you dated 150 woman (you haven't have you? :) ). And this was your overall take, I would not even form a word to disagree with you.

I will assume you have not dated 150 women. Chuff, could it be, possible, when dating, or when you are interested in a women, it is a certain type of women, that catches your eye? Perhaps you are not finding or gravitating to the type of women that does indeed like a sensitive caring guy.

I have 4 sisters and each of us just loved that type of guy and really did not like the standoffish type at all. How can you hold a conversation with someone who is standoffish.

Chuff, is it possible you gravitate to the types of girls who do not like the sensitive type. Or am I way off base here?

[chuff]

Chuff,

Feels odd for me to say I disagree with you about your own experiences. That doesn't seem quite right does it? Now, if you dated 150 woman (you haven't have you? :) ). And this was your overall take, I would not even form a word to disagree with you.

I will assume you have not dated 150 women. Chuff, could it be, possible, when dating, or when you are interested in a women, it is a certain type of women, that catches your eye? Perhaps you are not finding or gravitating to the type of women that does indeed like a sensitive caring guy.

I have 4 sisters and each of us just loved that type of guy and really did not like the standoffish type at all. How can you hold a conversation with someone who is standoffish.

Chuff, is it possible you gravitate to the types of girls who do not like the sensitive type. Or am I way off base here?

Well the problem with that is I am not just describing myself but what I have seen with my friends both male and female. Because I'm a big guy I've been working in clubs before I could legally do it and now manage a bar and I see it repeated all the time. Now granted the people I see for the most part not church goers but I constantly hear from women, "I want a nice guy that is in touch with his emotions." Yet I see who they go out with and I know they are going to wind up used in the end but they don't seem to see it. And I always think to myself, "Who you say you want, and who you go for are two seperate people." The funny thing is no matter how much a guy is known as a jerk or has a reputation as someone that can't be trusted around women, there is always a large number of them that flock to him.

[chuff]

This is going to sound really daft now but sometimes I wish I did not care so much and I did not have my emotional self awareness so as to avoid getting hurt. Yet I am proud of this because deep down I know that this is a really good thing. You should never change anything like that, neither could you..

Its all about being true to yourself and others!

Sorry for being random again..LOL>>need a coffee:)

Well I probably sound daft because I don't know what daft mean! LOL.

As an emotional male I understand 100% completely what you mean. But at the end of the day I think (at least I want to think) it does mean we are more in touch with who we really are as opposed to others who are not sure what to feel.

[Allheart]

Chuff,

I'm not saying your wrong because, of course you are not. You have seen it. But look where. A bar. Sad to say, but sometimes, that goes hand in hand. Don't you think?

I am sure you have seen it outside the bar atmosphere as well, but yes, it will be all over the bar scene.

And you are right, if there is one creep, there are 20 girls who are after him. Don't ask me why that is. But I was never one of the 20. Nor where a lot of other girls. Just don't get discouraged or change who you are, you either Geoff, and Chuff, I doubt you will and your friends shouldn't either. There are incredible girls out there, that value the very things you fine gentlemen have. That's the Allheart truth.

You just have to keep those eyes open and really listen to what they are saying. Not so much what they are looking for in a guy, but other parts of their conversation can be very telling. Is it always something that centers around them??

The bar scene, can be a lot of fun and a place to really unwind, but it should only be a small contributing factor to how you view the mindset of women and men.

[chuff]

Chuff,

I'm not saying your wrong becuase, of course you are not. You have seen it. But look where. A bar. Sad to say, but sometimes, that goes hand in hand. Don't you think?

I am sure you have seen it outside the bar atmosphere as well, but yes, it will be all over the bar scene.

But that's just it. I saw this in college. I see this with my friends who don't work in a bar. I see this in my with my hotel empolyees. I've seen this with other jobs I've held. I've seen this in society. I see it with celebrities. I see it in the news. I see this everywhere.

[Allheart]

But that's just it. I saw this in college. I see this with my friends who don't work in a bar. I see this in my with my hotel empolyees. I've seen this with other jobs I've held. I've seen this in society. I see it with celebrities. I see it in the news. I see this everywhere.

And I believe you Chuff, I truly do. Perhaps I have been out of that part of the world for so long, I truly have lost touched. That is very sad and these girls need to wake up. Times must have really changed. I wouldn't go by the celebrity thing though, that's just a shallow life style anyway. There's nothing to real about there to begin with. Six month relationships in Hollywood is an eternity.

I honestly don't know what to say. For all the tears I saw shed from my sisters, to my friends, and to think someone would turn away from a caring guy, is hard for me to understand. In my sisters case and friends case, we thought they WERE a good guy, only to find out just the opposite. The guys would come off as caring, loving, sensitive and attentive and then BAM, the other and real side would come out. That is mostly what I would see.

Let's hope for better days ahead.

[LBP]

I've never cheated on or lied to a woman. I've never done anything other than be myself. I'm a good looking, driven, confident and charming person. I am also passionate and, for the most part, emotionally available. I've got a lot of pride in myself, but it's tempered by self-awareness... I try not to become too wrapped in myself and always leave my thoughts open to the influence of others.

I've never been dumped for acting like a jerk, though heck knows that I do that from time to time. I have, however, been dumped for giving a girl what she wants and supporting her through the tought times. I remember my ex, as a matter of fact, in citing our problems as saying that 'we're probably too honest with each other.'

Honest to goodness quote. I've heard women say the same thing you're saying, Allheart, and the difference between you and them is that where you would appear to have acted on your thoughts, when put on the spot, the women I'm talking about CANNOT COME UP WITH A SINGLE INSTANCE WHERE THEY WENT AFTER AND WERE SATISFIED BY THE EMOTIONAL GUY. It's amazing. Not one damn time.

Why is this? Women really want this alleged 'available man' yet can't seem to come across one in the enteriety of existence? I know they exist. This board is full of them! And what's our uniting characteristic? We all got DUMPED.

I want to give women the love and respect they deserve. I really do. It makes me sick to my stomach to see men do what they to women. But maybe those guys just know something I don't. Certainly gets them to second base a lot more often.

[chuff]

LBP are you Geoff, and I triplets separated at birth? This is exactly what I'm thinking and your quote was so close to home.

I've never cheated on or lied to a woman. I've never done anything other than be myself. I'm a good looking, driven, confident and charming person. I am also passionate and, for the most part, emotionally available. I've got a lot of pride in myself, but it's tempered by self-awareness... I try not to become too wrapped in myself and always leave my thoughts open to the influence of others.

I've never been dumped for acting like a jerk, though heck knows that I do that from time to time. I have, however, been dumped for giving a girl what she wants and supporting her through the tought times.

Exactly. I've been there. You help them through a tough time and then you find yourself kicked to the curb. I guess that's what being a doormat is but as a male we would think that a woman would like a guy that can help them through emotional times as opposed to just say "leave me alone, I don't have time for you."

I remember my ex, as a matter of fact, in citing our problems as saying that 'we're probably too honest with each other.'

This is so unbelievable. I'm almost at a loss. Because believe it or not I actually heard something very similar once. The quote I was given was "We probably got too close to each other and if we hadn't things would have worked out." I was shocked when I heard that. That makes no sense.

I will admit looking back that there was not an arua of mystery but I guess when you don't hide who you are you expect to be appreciated for your honesty and not scolded for it. When I read you quote LBP that sent me back years to her saying that.

Honest to goodness quote. I've heard women say the exact same thing you're saying, Allheart, and the difference between you and them is that where you would appear to have acted on your thoughts, when put on the spot, the women I'm talking about CANNOT COME UP WITH A SINGLE INSTANCE WHERE THEY WENT AFTER AND WERE SATISFIED BY THE EMOTIONAL GUY.

Exactly. They say it verbally but they don't back it up with action.

It's amazing. Not one damn time.

Why is this? Women really want this alleged 'available man' yet can't seem to come across one in the enteriety of existance? I know they exist. This board is full of them!

It is. And you see it all the time from guys that get dumped by a woman who leaves him for another guy that is a complete self obsessed a**hole. Then 6 month later those same woman complain that guys just want one thing and can't be trusted. That's true of some guys yes, but I'm going to go on record and say that is not of MOST men.

And what's our uniting characteristic? We all got DUMPED.

And in some cases such as myself spent a lifetime getting dumped for the most part. I've end some relationships but not because I found someone else.

I want to give women the love and respect they deserve. I really do. It makes me sick to my stomach to see men do what they to women. But maybe those guys just know something I don't. Certainly gets them to second base a lot more often.

Even after the girls get abused and used by these guys they hate all men but if the guy calls them back up many women will they jump right back in. That's not to say guys won't either, but they won't do it with a married woman like a woman would with a married man.

[valinors_sorrow]

I have been giving this more thought too as its really an intriguing question. Since married men and women cheat at about the same percentages, do the women tend to cheat with married men more and do the men tend to cheat with single women more? I wonder...

I know that while I have never cheated, wouldn't even entertain the idea for three seconds--- the only time I was involved with a married man was when it had begun before he told me he was married. A ring on his hand would have helped, as someone pointed out earlier.

As for the emotional man thing, I have to say that I think we (men and women) are not so different save what is put on us culturlally. Oh yeah there are some minor but significant biological differences I know, and I won't go into them now LOL. But the idea that a man can't be emotional is just hogwash! And the girls who support that profile are immature and worse, shallow.

Since I have never been one to buy into the conventional notion of anything, it moved me greatly the first time (of quite a few times now) that I saw my strong, very masculine partner cry. He is as emotional as I am rational -- we both blew up conventional roles like that a long time ago. We made mincement out of that "Men are from Mars and women are from Venus" book and loved doing it LOL. But it took me a long time to find my match in this culture and we both had to fail at first marriages too. So maybe its more a matter of how much does one buy into the prescribed notions of who you are "supposed" to be according to the culture... shrugs?

I think a lot of what you are talking about Chuff has to do with age and maturity. Women in their 20's are very different than women in their 30's as are women in their 40's and so on. I don't think, at least in the US, that many women are very emotionally mature as adults but this goes to how the culture has rather supported that too. Too much "Paris Hilton" allure has allowed too many girls to hang onto the shallow bratty side of adolescence well into adulthood, ugh!

[LBP]

Kudos to you, Valinor - you seem like a very together person. But consider - would so many of us men have so many similar stories if there weren't a little truth to it? I mean, it's almost comical how our experiences mirror each other's!

[Geoffersonairplane]

LBP are you Geoff, and I triplets seperated at birth? This is exactly what what I'm thinking and your quote was so close to home.

Perhaps Quadruplets because we forgot Skell.

I have been giving this more thought too as its really an intriguing question. Since married men and women cheat at about the same percentages, do the women tend to cheat with married men more and do the men tend to cheat with single women more? I wonder...

If I had to place a bet on it, then I would place it on the Married men cheating with single women more rather than the married woman cheating with the single man but then I really don't know.

I do agree with something Wildcat quite often says and that is, people want what they can't have.

And I also agree with what val says about men and women not being that much different emotional creatures. I just think that women are usually better at dealing with and expressing their emotions than men are yet I also believe that it has a lot to do with age too.

[valinors_sorrow]

Kudos to you, Valinor - you seem like a very together person. But consider - would so many of us men have so many similar stories if there weren't a little truth to it? I mean, it's almost comical how our experiences mirror each other's!

Oh no, I was agreeing with you more than it may have sounded like. Its just, I think its source is more cultural than biological, that's all. There is a lot of common ground -- look at the opera Carmen (about a manipulative girl who takes a love-struck man down the proverbial path to tragedy).

[Allheart]

LBP and Chuff and Geoff,

I have to say the one thing that just blew me away on this site was, just what you are saying, seeing the amount of guys on here who are truly hurting over a girl ending the relationship. I still am in amazement. LBP, tell me she really didn't say that. You are too honest with each other?? I can see your frustration.

I don't know what to say to the 3 of you. Each of you deserve the greatest of girls, who can truly appreciate the men that you truly are. Please don't change who you are, because of past and current hurts or those of your friends.

I will tell you this, the more the guy would open up to me, the closer I felt to him and in my hubby's case, the more I found myself falling in love with him and it showed that he truly trusted me.

There has got to be girls out there, who not only say they want a sensitive caring guy, but actually proves it in her actions. There just has to be.

[Nosnosna]

This feels to me like a rehash of the old "Why do girls only date the jerks and not the nice guys?" discussion.

Women out there do appreciate the emotionally available men. Not all of them, of course, but a lot do. One thing you have to remember, though, is that 'emotionally available' means different things to different people... some women may simply want empathy, while others may want a fully open and (if you'll pardon the expression) 'womanish' emotional awareness in their men. If your definition and theirs are too different, then she'll see you as either a wuss or a jerk, and you'll see her as a hypocrite or unreasonable, when it really just comes down to a simple misunderstanding.

Success in a relationship includes tempering yourself for the needs of your partner... simply being emotionally available isn't enough if it's not the right kind of emotionally available.

[valinors_sorrow]

In 1970's, when I first encountered Women's Liberation I wrote an essay article about how, if we don't correspondingly raise the conscienceness of men, we will only compound our troubles by widening the gap between the genders, that men have equally as restraining conditions being put on them. And it was sadly too radical of a view for even the underground paper on campus, sheesh! I know I sound like an aging hippy but that's because I am, dammit Janet! LOL

I may make my "liberated" sisters annoyed with this remark but... the number of children being raised by single mothers is making it very difficult, I think. Single mothers aren't as capable of raising boys to men like men are. And where you really see the damage is correspondingly, the girls have expectations about guys that are out of line with reality. So here we are now in a culture where we are encouraged to distance ourselves from our emotions as much as possible, and at such an expense too, oy!

[Geoffersonairplane]

I think society is changing and it is becoming more socially acceptable to express oneself.

Or is that just my idealist side surfacing? Yet it seems many people feel an obligation to project themselves in a way that is socially acceptable when common sense would say that just being yourself is the best thing that you could be.

[LBP]

Allow me to illustrate my point.

I live with three room mates, all men. We get along because we're of a similar sort of temperament. We're all honest, sensitive, caring guys who are for the most part physically attractive. Not one of us would ever cheat on a woman or lie to her. Out of these four men, we've had maybe a dozen dates over the course of college (most of them by me). I had my girlfriend and another has a girl at the moment (his first in his entire college career) who is over decade older than he is (Geoff, you may be on to something).

A group of friends live down the way - they, like us, are a group of four men living together. They are not so different from us. Same age, similar education choices. The difference is that these guys could give a crap about what a woman thinks or feels. One has had a girlfriend for four years of college and has cheated on her more times than I can count. She has always come back. Another has dated two women at the same time, on more than one occasion! In fact, all four of them have indiscriminently and with abandon treated women like objects designed for their pleasure. They even joke about it. Needless to say, these men blow me and my roomies utterly out of the water in terms of getting women. What am I suppose to learn from this?

I mean, you can say that it isn't so as often as you want! You can even say it's cliché to point it out. But I can only judge the world as I see it.

[valinors_sorrow]

Are you aware LBP, that the very same thing could be said from the woman's point of view? The moral of the story seems to be more a case of if you are willing to be a user about it, you'll hook up easier, doesn't matter what gender you are. But if you are going for quality stuff, well, that takes effort... no?

There are good girls and bad...

There are good guys and bad...

And the bad ones always make the good ones doubt themselves, until one gets enough perspective (usually from time passing by) to see how it really works. Sadly by then some of the good and bad will have married and had kids.

[Geoffersonairplane]

What am I suppose to learn from this?

You can learn that you are a better human being than they probably ever will be and you should be proud of what you are, which I suspect you do.

I understand that resentment and I see it a lot too..

Another point is that a lot of younger women in their 20's think that is what they want, only to realise later on in life that really, they want the opposite. I have heard that said a lot by women in their 30's upwards both here and in my own life. In fact, one woman I used to work with was in her early 30's... She told me that she spent all her 20's seeing those types who cheated and lied to her. She even said she had a child with one of them and he did the same. Now she has met a nice, genuine man and married him... She said she has never been happier yet she said rewind her life 10 years or so and she would never have even thought twice about seeing someone like him..

[Nosnosna]

Allow me to illustrate my point.

I live with three room mates, all men. We get along because we're of a similar sort of temperment. We're all honest, sensitive, caring guys who are for the most part physically attractive. Not one of us would ever cheat on a woman or lie to her. Out of these four men, we've had maybe a dozen dates over the course of college (most of them by me). I had my girlfriend and another has a girl at the moment (his first in his entire college career) who is over decade older than he is (Geoff, you may be on to something).

A group of friends live down the way - they, like us, are a group of four men living together. They are not so different from us. Same age, similar education choices. The difference is that these guys could give a crap about what a woman thinks or feels. One has had a girlfriend for four years of college and has cheated on her more times than I can count. She has always come back. Another has dated two women at the same time, on more than one occasion! In fact, all four of them have indiscriminently and with abandon treated women like objects designed for their pleasure. They even joke about it. Needless to say, these men blow me and my roomies utterly out of the water in terms of getting women. What am I suppose to learn from this?

I mean, you can say that it isn't so as often as you want! You can even say it's cliche to point it out. But I can only judge the world as I see it.

And you envy their success* with women. Would you be happy nailing every piece of tail that you could con back to your place? Probably not. Since you wouldn't be happy doing that, it doesn't make any sense to compare your dating life to one based on doing that. So long as you equate their numbers with success, you've already lost, because you couldn't possibly be happy doing what they're doing. One girl for you is going to be more satisfying than twenty, because you're not just going to hit it and quit it.

As for me, I've been on all sides of the dating fence... I've been the cheating boyfriend. I've been the one cheated on. I've had purely physical relationships. I've been the one to add emotion to what was supposed to be a purely physical relationship. I've been the nice guy lamenting that all the girls date jerks. I've been the jerk getting too many girls. I've had sex with someone whose last name I still don't know. I've been a borderline stalker. I've been obsessed, and obsessed over.

Currently, I'm single, and have been for two years... I've had one pseudo-date and one sexual encounter with a friend in that time, and you know what? I'm happy with that. The biggest thing I've learned from all the stuff I've done is that the only person who has anything to do with me being happy is me... I don't need to live up to what anybody else is doing in their life, and I don't have to worry about any standards other than my own. Comparing yourself to someone else's standards is just going to make you miserable, because you're simply not them.

* - Success on their terms anyway, and since it's an issue for you, it seems that you see some value in that measure of success