[excon]

Hello:

In many of my posts I've mentioned that we imprison MORE people than the entire world does, not only in absolute terms, but per capita too. I'll bet my friends on the right will say that that stat SHOWS our strength, resolve, success and leadership.

I believe it SHOWS our failure. We're in decline. China is eating our lunch. I'll bet my friends on the right will say the opposite.

In fact, I believe our record as the worlds largest jailer FOMENTS the decline. I'll bet my friends on the right will say the opposite. Rather than put words in their mouths, though, I'd like to hear from them...

excon

[smoothy]

So.. the Alternative is letting the Criminals out to commit more crimes against others?

Because letting them commit MORE crimes... helps in exactly what way?

And decline is a result of more people not respecting the law or the rights of others, not because society want to lock them up.

China is in the position its in because much like California... the government has been spending far more than it had any business doing... on people it had no business throwing money at.


SO... you suggest... Immediate exicution for robbers... druggies... etc? That way they won't languish in prison for their violations? Because the alternative is to suggest they have the right to steal from others and violate the law.

[excon]

So..the Alternative is letting the Criminals out to commit more crimes against others?

Because letting them commit MORE crimes....helps in exactly what way?

And decline is a result of more people not respecting the law or the rights of others, not because society want to lock them up.

Hello smoothy:

You're perfect. I appreciate your response.. What you say makes sense from a wingers perspective... It's the perspective that's wrong...

I don't know if you've noticed, but regardless of my name, I'm NOT a supporter of crime. I think BAD guys should be locked up. I simply suggest we REDEFINE what we think of as a "bad guy", and what we think of as "crime". As an example, I believe a bad guy is one who robs and rapes, and kills. YOU believe a dope smoker is a bad guy.

It shouldn't be hard to REDEFINE those words because we REDEFINED them once before. The REPUBLICAN governor of Indiana, Mitch Daniels, is doing that very thing... Read about here.

Just ONE example is that he's doing away with mandatory sentences, and letting judges BE judges... Read the article, smoothy, and then tell me how wrong he and I are.

excon

[smoothy]

Well, you have two options... keep the criminals in jail... which most don't like. Its punishment after all.

Or let them out, where they will commit their crimes again... after all... a slap on the wrist isn't much of a deterant is it.

No need to redefine crime... would you want the crook that busted into your store and stole all your stuff out on the street... or behind bars... would you want the child molestor down the street... in jail or out on the street?

After all... I don't have to redefine what a thief is... or a child molestor, not do I have to show them any sympathy for their actions.

I shouldn't HAVE to worry about leaving my house because someone wanted to redefine Thief to equate to Jaywalker... as some sort of Political Correct BS.

Commit murder during the commission of a crime... Bullet to the skull for all of the participants... molest a 6 year old... Bullet to the skull. Can't make restitution for those acts... can you.

THeft... you do and should do hard time... we worked hard to get that stuff, they should work even harder to pay for stealing it.

Dope smoker is a bad guy... just like any drunk driver is. And don't try and tell me drug users never, ever get behind the wheel of a car?

Alcohol is legal after all... and that has made all the alcohol related crimes go away I suppose.

[paraclete]

Hello:

In many of my posts I've mentioned that we imprison MORE people than the entire world does, not only in absolute terms, but per capita too. I'll bet my friends on the right will say that that stat SHOWS our strength, resolve, success and leadership.

I believe it SHOWS our failure. We're in decline. China is eating our lunch. I'll bet my friends on the right will say the opposite.

In fact, I believe our record as the worlds largest jailer FOMENTS the decline. I'll bet my friends on the right will say the opposite. Rather than put words in their mouths, though, I'd like to hear from them...

excon

Well ex I can sympathise with your position, but when considering this situation you need to be aware of several factors that may be unique to your nation.; the availability of guns, position of long term unemployed and social security, the success or otherwise of your education system, your health care system and of course the availability and use of drugs.

To this you might reply but how is our law enforcement different? I don't think it is a law enforcement problem, it is a political problem caused by the nature of your laws and a capitalistic society which doesn't see a responsibility to care for the individual. Bad laws fill prisions, it is a fact that is only too obvious. The answer to social problems isn't to incarcerate the victims. But there is a price for all this liberty you guys shout about, when you tell someone they have the right to do anything, expect them to exercise that right to the Max. Sometimes is is better to have a few less rights and amore cohesive society

[tomder55]

I believe it SHOWS our failure. We're in decline. China is eating our lunch. I'll bet my friends on the right will say the opposite.

Yeah that's right the Chinese are an example of progressive tolerance .

Illicit drugs bring calamity to any country and people. Launching an anti-drug struggle to eliminate the drug scourge is the
Historical responsibility of the Chinese government. In old China, drugs once brought hideous disaster to the nation. But after
The founding of the People's Republic of China (PRC) in 1949, the Chinese government led the Chinese people in a momentous
Struggle against drugs. In a short period of three years, China wiped out the scourge of opium, which had scourged China for a
Century, thus performing a miracle acknowledged by the whole world. Confronting the new drug problem, the Chinese
Government, taking an attitude of supreme responsibility to the state, the nation and the people, and the mankind as a whole,
And standing firm in strictly prohibiting illegal drugs, has adopted all necessary measures and done its utmost to ban illicit drugs
For the benefit of the people.

Narcotics Control in China

Those convicted of drug-related crimes in China face harsh penalties, in some cases capital punishment. Drug abusers and addicts must undergo rehabilitation at police-run facilities or labor camps.

Erowid Psychoactive Vaults : Drug Laws : China

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/08/wo...a/08china.html

Narcotics-related crimes and use are also on the rise in China. Chinese law enforcement authorities have little tolerance for illegal drugs and periodically conduct widespread sweeps of bar and nightclub districts, targeting narcotics distributors and drug users.

China

China adopts first anti-drug law

[smoothy]

Yeah that's right the Chinese are an example of progressive tolerance .


Narcotics Control in China

Erowid Psychoactive Vaults : Drug Laws : China

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/08/wo...a/08china.html


China

China adopts first anti-drug law

But Tom... the Chinese are comunists... the far left aspires to be more like them. It's their ultimate goal. They actually WANT to be treated like dissenters are in China... so they can somehow place the blame for their actions on someone else where it might actually stick for a change.

[paraclete]

I think you fellows need to understand something about China. The only thing that could clean up the corruption of centuries was a totalatarian regime and by example the only only thing that might ultimately clean up the corruption of the US is a totalatarian regime.

They found they had to purge certain ideas from their society. Let us all in western society hope that we can adjust without such measures but it won't come without doing the hard yards which means no tolerance to criminal activity, that is a criminal forfiets their rights and the recognition that some men are not equal, they are a blight. The chinese method of rehabilitation by forced labour and reeducation has some advantages.

Here are a few ideas; all criminals must undertake at least five years military service. All criminals must be taught a trade involving physical labour, all criminals must undertake a further period of community service after release. No convicted person is entitled to own or carry a weapon. All unemployed must undertake community service or be inducted into the military

[Wondergirl]

Here are a few ideas; all criminals must undertake at least five years military service. All criminals must be taught a trade involving physical labour, all criminals must undertake a further period of community service after release.

There have been good reports from prisons whose inmates have worked to rehab abused animals, especially horses and dogs, and have worked on prison (organic,etc.) farms.

[paraclete]

There have been good reports from prisons whose inmates have worked to rehab abused animals, especially horses and dogs, and have worked on prison (organic,etc.) farms.

Yes worthwhile ideas

[tomder55]

Excellent 2 people on this thread have justified the Chinese
Totalitarian society.

Clete you are closer to there than we are . How could you not know that the Chinese system is a hollow house of cards Potamkin Village ? They are in a desperate race to expand before the whole house of cards collapses .

Hu is here and our shameless POTUS will no doubt grovel at his feet. But the truth is the PLA will take control of the government within the year and then watch out !

[paraclete]

excellent 2 people on this thread have justified the Chinese
totalitarian society.

Clete you are closer to there than we are . How could you not know that the Chinese system is a hollow house of cards Potamkin Village ? They are in a desparate race to expand before the whole house of cards collapses .

Hu is here and our shameless POTUS will no doubt grovel at his feet. But the truth is the PLA will take control of the government within the year and then watch out !

Yes Tom we are closer than you are in more ways than one. Tom you have to look at all points of view and the Chinese have a more law abiding society than the US despite the number of political prisioners. People like me can walk the streets of China and have done so with no thought that they might be attacked or robbed. Contrary to your views China is progressing and while they may have invested too much in inferstructure which has no immediate use they have to deal with the problem of unemployment their own way. Which is better? Building buildings and highways or having civil unrest and repression?

The US has woken up to a reality, in order to preserve the dream they have sold the farm and now the landlord wants to collect the rent

[smoothy]

I think you fellows need to understand something about China. The only thing that could clean up the corruption of centuries was a totalatarian regime and by example the only only thing that might ultimately clean up the corruption of the US is a totalatarian regime.

They found they had to purge certain ideas from their society. Let us all in western society hope that we can adjust without such measures but it won't come without doing the hard yards which means no tolerance to criminal activity, that is a criminal forfiets their rights and the recognition that some men are not equal, they are a blight. The chinese method of rehabilitation by forced labour and reeducation has some advantages.

Here are a few ideas; all criminals must undertake at least five years military service. All criminals must be taught a trade involving physical labour, all criminals must undertake a further period of community service after release. No convicted person is entitled to own or carry a weapon. All unemployed must undertake community service or be inducted into the military

Problem is most of the Chinese officials are at least as corrupt as the so called "Corrupt" people they supposedly replaced.

And if that wasn't already well known... the big earthquake they had, only reinforced it. By showing they were even more corrupt, than the NYC and Chicago politicians are. THe right amount of money the right direction you got to do anything... while if you DIDN'T pay them off... you got NOTHING at all done. In fact... Chicago Politicians are rank amateurs a far as corruption goes compaired to the Chinese local party officials.

[paraclete]

Ex I would like to share with you some wisdom which comes from unlikely places the aboriginal race of Australia who in certain places are the most incarcerated people on earth relative to their population.

The aboriginal elder tells us that our whole view and system is wrong and causes the problem. If a black fellow gets into trouble what do you white folks do? You lock him up in a place where he has a roof over his head, a bed, three meals a day and lots of other things he can't afford. He has never had it so good, If you let us deal with the problem what we do is spear him through the legs and put him outside the camp, if he survives he is not allowed back.

So you see for these people jail is better than where they are and I suspect since blacks are promenient among your prison population the same is true to some extent.

I agree, having 23% of the world's prison population in a "FREE" country is ridiculous, you are not free at all, but then you have high statistics for pollution too so appears you do everything to excess

[paraclete]

Problem is most of the Chinese officials are at least as corrupt as the so called "Corrupt" people they supposedly replaced.

No arguments with you, they have exchanged one form of corruption for another, but they have achieved a certain order out of chaos. They have an even more rigorous prosection of drugs than you do, but they are more serious about it, they are not so much focused on the users but the dealers. You spend your efforts chasing and jailing the users rather than cutting off the head of the snake. I suspect you fear the same sort of urban warfare that bedevils Mexico, leaving corruption aside. It's lazy policing

[tomder55]

Back in the 1930s Time Magazine admired the Fascist efficiency also.

[paraclete]

back in the 1930s Time Magazine admired the Fascist efficiency also.

No one is saying that we might not have fight a war with them someday

[smoothy]

no arguments with you, they have exchanged one form of corruption for another, but they have achieved a certain order out of chaos. They have an even more rigorous prosection of drugs than you do, but they are more serious about it, they are not so much focussed on the users but the dealers. You spend your efforts chasing and jailing the users rather than cutting off the head of the snake. I suspect you fear the same sort of urban warfare that bedevils Mexico, leaving corruption aside. It's lazy policing

If I called the shots... the trafficers would be taken out and shot... if they were caught with the goods red handed... it would happen right there. But I don't call the shots. Wouldn't necessarily do that to the users... incarceration is fine at that end for them.

But the users create the market... without the Junkies... no market would exist to exploit. So there is no innocent user... they share the blame with the trafficers.

[paraclete]

If I called the shots....the trafficers would be taken out and shot...if they were caught with the goods red handed....it would happen right there. But I don't call the shots. Wouldn't neccessarily do that to the users.....incarceration is fine at that end for them.

But the users create the market....without the Junkies....no market would exist to exploit. So there is no innocent user....they share the blame with the trafficers.

Yes, by all means punish the pushers, but the users need different treatment, big fines and rehab, not jail. No point turning them into criminals. They are victims, they got hooked, but any one of them that commits a crime to support their habit, deal with them. The focus needs to be on catching pushers, not users. So decriminalise users, but become really tough on pushers and don't let the cops off with chasing users, it's too easy.

[smoothy]

Yes, by all means punish the pushers, but the users need different treatment, big fines and rehab, not jail. No point turning them into criminals. They are victims, they got hooked, but any one of them that commits a crime to support their habit, deal with them. The focus needs to be on catching pushers, not users. So decriminalise users, but become really tough on pushers and don't let the cops off with chasing users, it's too easy.

THey aren't victims... they got hooked on their own... they weren't kidnapped, and injected against their will.

And there isn't a person breathing that doesn't know they can get hooked on any and all of them, some more easily than others.

Playing the victim card is a cop-out. That's like blaming the carjacker as being the victim of being without reliable transportation. Or Rapists as being the victim of being without a willing partner.