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classyT · Jan 11, 2011, 06:14 PM

Dave,

I fixed it... :). I have no clue why it was that way.

HeadStrongBoy · Jan 12, 2011, 08:50 PM

Quoting classyT:
Headstrong - according to your understanding of the King James version of the Bible can you tell me what I must do to be saved.

The simple answer is that actually we CAN do nothing to guarantee our own salvation.

For further clarification and supporting details the whole business becomes somewhat more complex. But in a nutshell what I have stated above is IT. That fact however does NOT absolve the candidate from doing his best to be as obedient as possible to all of God's commandments. God's commandments are given to the whole world so that mankind in general can have a reasonably happy life while on planet Earth. As I see it, morality and salvation are two entirely different issues. People are commanded to live morally whether God has elected to save them or not.

Wondergirl · Jan 12, 2011, 08:56 PM

Thus, you believe man does not have free will.

If God chooses those who will be saved, what difference does it make for man to believe? Why preach the gospel?

HeadStrongBoy · Jan 12, 2011, 09:04 PM

Wondergirl:

Man has free will in the sense that we can choose the religion we prefer, and we can choose whom to marry, and a whole host of other choices we can make. But none of those choices can help us to get saved.

The issue of preaching the gospel is simply a matter of obedience to God's command. "Go ye therefore..."

Wondergirl · Jan 12, 2011, 09:11 PM

Do you believe in total immersion baptism?

Do you believe that God planned the Fall into sin so there would be something to save His creatures from?

Wondergirl · Jan 12, 2011, 09:18 PM

Do you believe that grace is irresistible for those God wants to save? In other words, they cannot say no and fall away at any time?

HeadStrongBoy · Jan 12, 2011, 09:29 PM

Now we're getting a little more complicated. But that's OK.

As far as I'm concerned one kind of water baptism ceremony is as good as any other kind of baptism ceremony. They are all OBSOLETE. Though we can LEARN something from water baptism because after all God did institute it for a purpose. That was a SIGN to demonstrate "See how water can wash the skin clean of dirt? In a similar way God Himself must wash away sins from our innermost being (our souls)IF we are to be saved."

Do you believe that God planned the Fall into sin so there would be something to save His creatures from?
The simplest answer I can give is... I don't know. But it is an interesting thought, isn't it ? After all God very well did know what would happen. And He had made preparation for it. And now that I think about it... yes. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil represents a "tesing program" to see whether humanity would continue to obey God. Clearly they (we) failed the test. Hence the salvation program was ready to begin its work during the whole history of mankind on Earth. How's that ?

HeadStrongBoy · Jan 12, 2011, 09:52 PM

The subject of Irresistible Grace

Clearly if the choice of whom to save is entirely God's own, then it must follow that those who are chosen have no alternative but to become saved and to never fall away. But all of that does not mean that we others can observe the inner workings of the details of that in another person's life. We would like to believe that those people who seem most moral and most up-standing are surely God's candidates for salvation. But as the Bible gives several examples, that is not necessarily so. For example the thief on the cross next to Jesus was an unrepentant criminal until just before he died. Shortly before his death Jesus accepted him into His kingdom. Another example was David's great sin of adultery with Bathsheba, and the murder of her husband. Horrific sins ! Yet David was a child of God. When He did repent his contrition was most eloquent and sincere. See Psalm 51.

Wondergirl · Jan 12, 2011, 10:16 PM

So, everyone is subject to God's wrath, but He's chosen certain ones to be merciful to. In other words, He saves some and damns others.

How does He decide whom to save?

dwashbur · Jan 12, 2011, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy

Quoting classyT:
Headstrong - according to your understanding of the King James version of the Bible can you tell me what I must do to be saved.

The simple answer is that actually we CAN do nothing to guarantee our own salvation.

For further clarification and supporting details the whole business becomes somewhat more complex. But in a nutshell what I have stated above is IT. That fact however does NOT absolve the candidate from doing his best to be as obedient as possible to all of God's commandments. God's commandments are given to the whole world so that mankind in general can have a reasonably happy life while on planet Earth. As I see it, morality and salvation are two entirely different issues. People are commanded to live morally whether God has elected to save them or not.

John 20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life.

Note the recurring word "know." The Bible records what it does so that we can know that we are saved, that we have eternal life, and all the rest. Paul talks again and again about assurance of our salvation. The Bible says we can know. You say we can't. I'll go with the Bible, thank you.

HeadStrongBoy · Jan 12, 2011, 11:12 PM

Quoting Wondergirl:
How does He decide whom to save?

As can be seen the whole matter of salvation is not as simple as we might like it to be. Part of this question I have already addressed in other posts. But it's extremely important so I don't mind at all repeating some of it here. God does absolutely everything perfectly and according to His own law. That means first of all sins cannot just be ignored. There is a penalty prescribed by God's own law for sin. That penalty is DEATH. That means complete death, permanently, of the body and soul (the complete personality) of the offending humans. So whatever particular individual was chosen to be saved MUST have someone make the payment of the death penalty, as prescribed by God's own law, in his stead.

Also God had already anticipated the sins of those He chose, and NAMED, before He created them, before they even committed their first sins. He had named them, and made payment for their sins all before the very first day of creation.

As to what criteria God may have used to make His selections of particular individuals, the details are not given in the Bible. But the Bible does indicate that there is a definite number of people that are predestined to be saved. And it is NOT the entire population of the world that ever lived. The most probable number is found in Revelation 9:16. There are also some anecdotal Bible references to the "lot." God used the casting of lots to distribute parcels of the land of Canaan to the various tribes of Israel. For example Numbers 26:55, Numbers 33:54, Deuteronomy 32:9, and others. This indicates to me that the way God chose the persons to be saved was done deliberately in such a way as to APPEAR to us as RANDOM. Though God says in Acts 10:34 that He is not a "respecter of persons." And God also describes His SOVEREIGNTY over all games of chance, particularly the "lot." (Proverbs 16:33) In very simple terms that means God is not telling us the details of exactly how He determined which particular individuals were selected for salvation.

classyT · Jan 13, 2011, 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy

Quoting Wondergirl:
How does He decide whom to save?

As can be seen the whole matter of salvation is not as simple as we might like it to be. Part of this question I have already addressed in other posts. But it's extremely important so I don't mind at all repeating some of it here. God does absolutely everything perfectly and according to His own law. That means first of all sins cannot just be ignored. There is a penalty prescribed by God's own law for sin. That penalty is DEATH. That means complete death, permanently, of the body and soul (the complete personality) of the offending humans. So whatever particular individual was chosen to be saved MUST have someone make the payment of the death penalty, as prescribed by God's own law, in his stead.

Also God had already anticipated the sins of those He chose, and NAMED, before He created them, before they even committed their first sins. He had named them, and made payment for their sins all before the very first day of creation.

As to what criteria God may have used to make His selections of particular individuals, the details are not given in the Bible. But the Bible does indicate that there is a definite number of people that are predestined to be saved. And it is NOT the entire population of the world that ever lived. The most probable number is found in Revelation 9:16. There are also some anecdotal Bible references to the "lot." God used the casting of lots to distribute parcels of the land of Canaan to the various tribes of Israel. For example Numbers 26:55, Numbers 33:54, Deuteronomy 32:9, and others. This indicates to me that the way God chose the persons to be saved was done deliberately in such a way as to APPEAR to us as RANDOM. Though God says in Acts 10:34 that He is not a "respecter of persons." And God also describes His SOVEREIGNTY over all games of chance, particularly the "lot." (Proverbs 16:33) In very simple terms that means God is not telling us the details of exactly how He determined which particular individuals were selected for salvation.

Headstrong,

So then how can we have a relationship with him if we aren't his? Why did the Lord Jesus come show us how to love, how to have a relationship with God the Father, why was the veil torn into, why give us access to the throne of grace so we can bodly come whenever we want? Who then does the Lord say he will never leave nor forsake? Why bother saying such a thing, if we don't even know if we are his?

Basically you are stating you don't even know if you are saved. What joy is there for you? You seem to like the Old Testament a lot. Interesing don't you think that Noah and his family weren't given a really high bar to hang onto during the flood. Hoping they didn't fall from it but never really knowing if they would make it through. No, instead they were secure in a ARK ( picture of Lord Jesus), no one was coming in or going out when God shut that door. They were safe and secure and THEY KNEW IT. ;)

Fr_Chuck · Jan 13, 2011, 06:46 AM

What a awful fearful life, I feel so sorry for you and who ever twisted Gods love in your heart and mind.

classyT · Jan 13, 2011, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

What a awful fearful life, I feel so sorry for you and who ever twisted Gods love in your heart and mind.

Jesus came to show the heart of our Father to mankind. His heart full of love and compassion. He would look out at the masses of people and see them as lost, scattered, skinned alive. His heart was full of love. He fed them spiritually, physcially and healed ALL lthat asked. And Headstrong is saying... we can't know that he KNOWS us, we can't know we are HIS. Very, very sad indeed!

Taking in ALL of the Old Testament and New Testament in the King James version, I'd say he is very wrong.

Wondergirl · Jan 13, 2011, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by classyT

Basically you are stating you don't even know if you are saved. What joy is there for you?

He has stated that he believes HE is saved. I am still wondering how he know HE is, but we can't know for sure that WE are, that our salvation may be in grave doubt because God did not choose us.

What secret knowledge does he have? Does he understand the Bible in some way more clearly than we do?

classyT · Jan 13, 2011, 10:11 AM

WG,

Well you ,Dave and Fr_chuck.. I could understand! But ME! Ha ha ha... :)

He won't answer my question. I need to know how I can be saved according to him and know it, like him and he gives me nuttin. He's not doing very good on following ALL the Bible commands.

HeadStrongBoy · Jan 13, 2011, 10:55 AM

Quoting Wondergirl:
"He has stated that he believes HE is saved."

WRONG!! I NEVER stated any such a thing!! The fact is that I simply don't know for sure. Sometimes I feel, yes it's possible, because I do have a desire to obey God. At other times I say to myself, NAH ! Why on Earth would God save me ? I still enjoy sin from time to time. So the answer is I JUST DON'T KNOW.

But... I'd much rather feel the way that I do than to delude myself into thinking I am saved when I really have no definitive proof.

And furthermore, I never stated that it's impossible to know. CLEARLY the scriptures do say that it is possible to know. I would not deliberately contradict the Bible. Though to know whether any PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL is or is not saved is not my place to say. Only God sees the heart of the person. We cannot.

Wondergirl · Jan 13, 2011, 10:58 AM

So how is it possible to know? You're saying we cannot know in this life, that we wander the earth full of fear and confusion and maybe even doubt?

Why don't YOU know?

Wondergirl · Jan 13, 2011, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy

I simply don't know for sure.

Funny. Salvation is the one thing I am SURE of in this life!

Sometimes I feel, yes it's possible, because I do have a desire to obey God.

No wonder you don't know, if you are counting on obedience to save you. Obedience is not what saves.

Why on Earth would God save me ?

Because he loves you? Because your name has always been written on the palm of His hand (Isaiah 49:16).

I still enjoy sin from time to time.

We all do. That's the wonder and beauty of God's love and grace, that He gives us the gift of salvation knowing we cannot be perfect in this life.

But... I'd much rather feel the way that I do than to delude myself into thinking I am saved when I really have no definitive proof.

The definite proof is in the message of the Gospel.

HeadStrongBoy · Jan 13, 2011, 11:13 AM

Quoting classyT:
I know I am saved because the bible says clearly:

If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in thine heart that God raised him from the dead... THOU SHALT BE SAVED. Romans 10:9

I have confessed and I do believe and therefore I am saved!

Ephesians 1:13 says I was sealed with the Holy spirit when I believed the gospel check it out... In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.

Clearly you already believe you're saved. So why on Earth would you even care to know what I think ? Obviously from everything I've said it should be clear that your version of salvation is a complete misunderstanding of scripture.