[skamp]

I am planning on upgrading my existing service from 125 AMP to 200 AMP. This is in a new house (3.5 years old). I am doing this because I am adding a pool and extension that will require a fair amount of power (60-80 AMP's). I also plan on adding some circuits for woodworking, etc. The existing service has the following specs.

1. Wire - aluminum with unknown size (I assume 1/0 and #2 but I am not sure)
2. Conduit - 1.5" from meter base to 12" from transformer pedestal buried 18".
3. Panel - 42 slot GE with about 8-10 slots left. This is the same as the 200 AMP panel with the only exception is the 125 AMP main.
4. Meter base - I am 99% sure the existing meter base is a 200 AMP base. It is a Milbank 3R that is 4-1/8 x 11 x 15-1/2. Looking in their site only 200 AMP bases or larger have those dimensions.
5. Ground - It looks like a #6 but I am not sure.

My plan is to use the following:

1. Wire - 4/0-4/0-4/0 aluminum. I think I can downsize the neutral but I think they sell a feeder cable here that is all 4/0. I am not 100% sure of the right type of cable to buy. It will be in conduit up until 12" from the transformer pedestal. The existing wiring are individual wires but I am not sure of the specification.
2. Conduit - Looks like 2 1/2" is the right way to go here.
3. Panel - Leave panel and swap main breaker.
4. Meter base - Like I said above I am 99% the meter base is OK. If not get correct base.
5. Ground - #4 looks like the right size for this service.

The service specification is on page 46 of this document http://www.centerpointenergy.com/fil...eStandards.pdf

Here is my plan for installation:

First call to get utilities marked! My plan was to hand trench along the existing conduit (18" down) to the transformer. My power company says it needs to brought within 12" of the transformer. The transformer is a straight shot from the side of my house and about 75-80' away. Once that is done I was going to have the power company pull the meter and disconnect the existing service. Once that is done I will pull the new wires into the meter base, run new jumper wires from the meter base to the panel (I assume I need to do this as they will be undersized), change the main breaker and swap the ground, call back the power company to energize the new wires. I also plan on using no-ox and torque the cable to the correct spec. I am not sure of the torque spec so I could use some help on that.

I am an avid DIY'er for electrical, plumbing, auto repair and woodworking but have never changed electrical service. I am outside the city limits so there are no permits or inspections so I am interested in doing it myself. I know being outside the limits does not in anyway prevent me from following code. The safety of my family and home are most important. That is why I came here for guidance. My questions are:

1. Is my plan sound.
2. Is this something that I can do? It seems somewhat straight forward but I have never done it so I can't really comment.

I appreciate any help with this!

Steve

[skamp]

I am planning on upgrading my existing service from 125 AMP to 200 AMP. This is in a new house (3.5 years old). I am doing this because I am adding a pool and extension that will require a fair amount of power (60-80 AMP's). I also plan on adding some circuits for woodworking, etc. The existing service has the following specs.

1. Wire - aluminum with unknown size (I assume 1/0 and #2 but I am not sure)
2. Conduit - 1.5" from meter base to 12" from transformer pedestal buried 18".
3. Panel - 42 slot GE with about 8-10 slots left. This is the same as the 200 AMP panel with the only exception is the 125 AMP main.
4. Meter base - I am 99% sure the existing meter base is a 200 AMP base. It is a Milbank 3R that is 4-1/8 x 11 x 15-1/2. Looking in their site only 200 AMP bases or larger have those dimensions.
5. Ground - It looks like a #6 but I am not sure.

My plan is to use the following:

1. Wire - 4/0-4/0-4/0 aluminum. I think I can downsize the neutral but I think they sell a feeder cable here that is all 4/0. I am not 100% sure of the right type of cable to buy. It will be in conduit up until 12" from the transformer pedestal. The existing wiring are individual wires but I am not sure of the specification.
2. Conduit - Looks like 2 1/2" is the right way to go here.
3. Panel - Leave panel and swap main breaker.
4. Meter base - Like I said above I am 99% the meter base is OK. if not get correct base.
5. Ground - #4 looks like the right size for this service.

The service specification is on page 46 of this document http://www.centerpointenergy.com/fil...eStandards.pdf

Here is my plan for installation:

First call to get utilities marked! My plan was to hand trench along the existing conduit (18" down) to the transformer. My power company says it needs to brought within 12" of the transformer. The transformer is a straight shot from the side of my house and about 75-80' away. Once that is done I was going to have the power company pull the meter and disconnect the existing service. Once that is done I will pull the new wires into the meter base, run new jumper wires from the meter base to the panel (I assume I need to do this as they will be undersized), change the main breaker and swap the ground, call back the power company to energize the new wires. I also plan on using no-ox and torque the cable to the correct spec. I am not sure of the torque spec so I could use some help on that.

I am an avid DIY'er for electrical, plumbing, auto repair and woodworking but have never changed electrical service. I am outside the city limits so there are no permits or inspections so I am interested in doing it myself. I know being outside the limits does not in anyway prevent me from following code. The safety of my family and home are most important. That is why I came here for guidance. My questions are:

1. Is my plan sound.
2. Is this something that I can do? It seems somewhat straight forward but I have never done it so I can't really comment.

I appreciate any help with this!

Steve

It looks like this is the right cable to use Item # Sweetbriar, Triplex Conductor 600 V Secondary Type URD Cable - Aluminum Conductor on American Wire Group. I will use this with a #4 ground. What would be the best conduit for this? My power company does not care and I have seen 2 or 2 1/2" used for 4/0 cable. Any thoughts? Does this sound like a solid plan? Thanks!

Steve

[tkrussell]

Here are answers, comments and observations to your project, not in any particular order:

There is a feeder direct burial cable for 200 amp, being #4/0, but It will not pulled through a PVC conduit very easily, especially with sweeps.

Using conduit and aluminum pulled conductors, typically wire used is 3- #4/0 aluminum XHHW.

Review Art 415.2 and 415.3, the way these are written seems to be a bit confusing, they say Conductors shall be listed as “USE” rated,and and shall be clearly marked as suitable for direct burial. , but then list: THW, THHW, TW, RHW, THWN, and XHHW, which are only used for pulling through conduit, and I have never seen rated USE or for direct burial. I would ask them to clarify this.

Note that they want the wires and/or conduit 24 " deep at the transformer.

Torquing specs are found on a label on each piece of equipment.

The label for the meter is inside,along with the amp rating. I believe your right that it is a 200 amp,I use Milbank often and the lower rating meter sockets are smaller.

Check the label and amp rating of the panel to be sure it is rated 200 amp.

An electrode grounding conductor only going to a ground rod(s) can be a min of #6. This can be the one dropping out of the disconnect next to the meter to the rod(s). Usually a min of two rods are needed, one primary and one supplemental, with the #6 continuously jumping from one to the other that must be no closer than six feet from the first rod.

If there is city water servicing the home, and it is at least 5 feet of metal pipe leaving the home, then the water usually will be the main grounding electrode, must jump out the water meter and 1 ground rod is added as the supplemental electrode, and the ground wire needs to be a min of #4 to the water and ground if the two are connected.

If the home has well water, then the metal cold water lines in the home need to be "bonded" to the ground. If you have natural gas utility, need to check with that utility company if they want or not their lines grounded.

Isn't grounding fun?

Can you do this? I can't answer that, you seem to have a handle on the terminology and seem to understand, but only you can answer this.

Are you sure no inspection is needed? The utility can help you with that. Even thou there may not be a local city inspector, there may be a county or state inspector that has jurisdiction. The utility clearly states that they will not inspect and that is your responsibility, and they will be held harmless if they connect and there is a problem.

Read the utility requirements carefully, it is full of info, a bit confusing and disorganized but it is all there. Check with them before doing any work.

Hope this helps.

[tkrussell]

I reviewed the URD cable, and that is fine, thou you may need 3 or 4" conduit/duct, because pulling through a 3 wire cable such as this is difficult to pull through a small conduit.

The #4 ground is the one from the disconnect next to the meter and drops down to the ground rod(s), right? Just to be clear only 3-#4/0 need to go from the transformer to the meter.

[skamp]

Here are answers, comments and observations to your project, not in any particular order:

There is a feeder direct burial cable for 200 amp, being #4/0, but It will not pulled thru a PVC conduit very easily, especially with sweeps.

Using conduit and aluminum pulled conductors, typically wire used is 3- #4/0 aluminum XHHW.

Review Art 415.2 and 415.3, the way these are written seems to be a bit confusing, they say Conductors shall be listed as “USE” rated,and and shall be clearly marked as suitable for direct burial. , but then list: THW, THHW, TW, RHW, THWN, and XHHW, which are only used for pulling thru conduit, and I have never seen rated USE or for direct burial. I would ask them to clarify this.

Note that they want the wires and/or conduit 24 " deep at the transformer.

Torquing specs are found on a label on each piece of equipment.

The label for the meter is inside,along with the amp rating. I believe your right that it is a 200 amp,I use Milbank often and the lower rating meter sockets are smaller.

Check the label and amp rating of the panel to be sure it is rated 200 amp.

An electrode grounding conductor only going to a ground rod(s) can be a min of #6. This can be the one dropping out of the disconnect next to the meter to the rod(s). Usually a min of two rods are needed, one primary and one supplemental, with the #6 continuously jumping from one to the other that must be no closer than six feet from the first rod.

If there is city water servicing the home, and it is at least 5 feet of metal pipe leaving the home, then the water usually will be the main grounding electrode, must jump out the water meter and 1 ground rod is added as the supplemental electrode, and the ground wire needs to be a min of #4 to the water and ground if the two are connected.

If the home has well water, then the metal cold water lines in the home need to be "bonded" to the ground. If you have natural gas utility, need to check with that utility company if they want or not their lines grounded.

Isn't grounding fun?

Can you do this? I can't answer that, you seem to have a handle on the terminology and seem to understand, but only you can answer this.

Are you sure no inspection is needed? The utility can help you with that. Even thou there may not be a local city inspector, there may be a county or state inspector that has jurisdiction. The utility clearly states that they will not inspect and that is your responsibility, and they will be held harmless if they connect and there is a problem.

Read the utility requirements carefully, it is full of info, a bit confusing and disorganized but it is all there. Check with them before doing any work.

Hope this helps.

I really appreciate your response! I agree the cable I specified first is not correct.

I have a new idea about what I am going to do. I think I am going to use my existing 1 1/2" conduit and pull THHN/THWN copper through it instead. I can use 2 x 2/0 and 1/0 for the neutral. My power company does not specify what conduit size I need but I found a few that allow a 1 1/2" conduit for 200 AMP when copper is used (example http://www.brec.coop/FactstoKnow/Wir.../Default.aspx). I know it will not be the easiest pull but with lots of grease I think it will be a bit easier then running new conduit.

As far as the ground I have a single rod with what looks like a #6 (5/32") running from the panel to the rod. I have read a lot and it seems like normally you have to have 2 rods unless you have the single tested. I looked around all the other houses around here and they all have a single rod. Should I look more into to this or assume this has been tested and it correct? Also should I upgrade to #4 for the ground?

My water service comes in via schedule 40 PVC that gets converted to copper at the cutoff in my garage. I know about the water service because I had to tap it for my sprinkler system.

I talked to Centerpoint and they said no inspection was needed. They only thing they do is verify the cable is buried to the correct depth.

Let me know what you think about this. I really appreciate the help. Thanks!

Steve

[skamp]

I reviewed the URD cable, and that is fine, thou you may need 3 or 4" conduit/duct, because pulling thru a 3 wire cable such as this is difficult to pull thru a small conduit.

The #4 ground is the one from the disconnect next to the meter and drops down to the ground rod(s), right? Just to be clear only 3-#4/0 need to go from the transformer to the meter.

There is no disconnect next to the meter. The existing 1 1/2" conduit comes in to the meter box and my panel is on the other side. No other connections or disconnects. I am pretty sure the #6 ground going to the ground bar comes from the panel's netural bar and not the meter box. As far as the cable check my previous post. I think I am going with copper inside my existing conduit. Let me know what you think. Thanks!

Steve

[tkrussell]

The conduit with those conductors is fine.

Grease? Wire Lube rated for wires, right?

Ok the water lines inside should already be bonded to the panel equipment ground, if not do so wit a #6 and a ground clamp at the closest location of cold water pipe to the panel.

NEC requires two ground rods, at least six feet apart and connected with the #6 ground wire that comes from the main disconnect. #4 is fine , you can get away with #6.

Other than these comments, looks like your ready to go.

[skamp]

The conduit with those conductors is fine.

Grease? Wire Lube rated for wires, right?

Ok the water lines inside should already be bonded to the panel equipment ground, if not do so wit a #6 and a ground clamp at the closest location of cold water pipe to the panel.

NEC requires two ground rods, at least six feet apart and connected with the #6 ground wire that comes from the main disconnect. #4 is fine , you can get away with #6.

Other than these comments, looks like your ready to go.

OK, great! That is what I wanted to hear about the conduit and conductors. I think that is going to be a lot easier even if I have to dig up the 90* and redo that part.

I did mean wire lube for pulling cables. I have pulled a lot of Cat5 in my day so I have used the lube before. We always called it wire grease even though it was not grease.

All of the copper water and black pipe gas lines are bonded to ground.

I guess I am really up in arms about the ground rods. I can't imagine that all the production builders here violate code like that. Everyone around here has a single rod. I assume it is 8' but I am not sure.

Also when you say main disconnect I am not sure what you mean. The only ground going to the ground rod in the soil comes from the breaker panels netural bus bar. Am I missing something here?

I have to say you have been a huge help and I really appreicate it. Thanks!

Steve

PS. Check your PayPal account.

[tkrussell]

Just that the diagram in the utility booklet shows a main breaker next to the meter. If you main is in your panel, then that is where the ground should go, so your all set with that.

I did and I thank you so much, very appreciated! Glad to help.

Thanks

[skamp]

Just that the diagram in the utility booklet shows a main breaker next to the meter. If you main is in your panel, then that is where the ground should go, so your all set with that.

I did and I thank you so much, very appreciated! Glad to help.

Thanx

Yea my main is part of my 42 slot panel. So what do you think about my ground issue? I find it very odd that all the houses around here have a single rod. Should I ask someone about this? Thanks!

Steve

[tkrussell]

I find it odd also, as the code has required two grounding electrodes for several years, and your home is only 3.5 years old.

But also, sounds as if you are in a subdivision, where a bunch of homes were built at the same time by the same developer, and there is no inspection , so someone save ten bucks per home.

So who can you ask? See if there is a state electrical inspector, and how if your area truly does not need inspections.

Electrician Licensing Frequently Asked Questions Read #1 & #3

Find your city in this list:

http://www.tdlr.state.tx.us/electric...s/citylist.pdf

So according to the state, any one doing electrical work must be licensed. So if I were you I would be checking with the state just to check and be sure. Then you can find out why the grounding is done the way it is.

[skamp]

I find it odd also, as the code has required two grounding electrodes for several years, and your home is only 3.5 years old.

But also, sounds as if you are in a subdivision, where a bunch of homes were built at the same time by the same developer, and there is no inspection , so someone save ten bucks per home.

So who can you ask? See if there is a state electrical inspector, and how if your area truly does not need inspections.

Electrician Licensing Frequently Asked Questions Read #1 & #3

Find your city in this list:

http://www.tdlr.state.tx.us/electric...s/citylist.pdf

So according to the state, any one doing electrical work must be licensed. So if I were you I would be checking with the state just to check and be sure. Then you can find out why the grounding is done the way it is.

Ok sounds good. I will make some call as I will also look in the new section that they are building in to see what they are currently doing for a ground.

My current ground rod looks to be zinc and sits about 1-2" above grade. I guess I could just pound in 2 new rods 6' apart and be done with it. I assume if I do this I should run a new continious #6 or #4 ground wire to connect the two rods and then connect it to the netural bus bar in my panel. Do you have any good references to doing the ground. I read in one place that bonding between the rods should be 18" underground. Should I leave one of the rods 1-2" above grade to connect my phone and cable grounds like my existing rod? Thanks!

Steve

[tkrussell]

We normally use copper cladded rods, but zinc plated are available, and the differences are due to geographical/market locations.

The connection to the rod is usually just below grade, to help with insuring all 8 feet are in the ground, and helps with physical protection of the connection.The connector we use is called an "acorn" because of it's shape, has one bolt that tightens on the rod, and squeezes the wire onto the rod.

After thinking about it, I had to check, and seems I am imposing our local practices onto you.

A supplemental ground rod is only required if the main grounding electrode is a metal water pipe. So looks like your area is fine with one rod. This is what happens with me blending national code with my local code. Having it pounded in my head for 30 years, no pun intended, that two electrodes be used, always, whether it is a water line or a rod, I end up giving the wrong advice to others in different areas.

Living in New England, the land is all hills, mountains, and ledge, and we have a serious grounding problem here. So all local and state codes require AT LEAST two grounding electrodes, and sometimes more,no matter what. The resistance of any ground needs to be 25 ohms or less, and we have a real difficult time getting down to 25 ohms, let alone less.

Soil conditions have a great deal to do with good grounding. It is a real challenge here trying to drive an 8 foot rod when there is ledge 2 feet below grade. And the soil can be dry because it is so rocky or sandy, and the water aquifer is down 100+ feet running through fractures in the rock.

This is why local codes should always be checked. But if this is the worst advice I offer, all it costs is $10.00, and exceeds the national code.

So looks like your area is fine with one rod. If you were to install two rods, then the wire needs to be continuous from the neutral bar all the way to the last electrode. There is no certain depth the wire needs to be from building to rod to rod, just as long as it is kept below grade to protect it from physical damage. Again check with local code on this.

Yes use the one rod for all other grounds such as phone and cable.

If you like you can review the National Code at:

NFPA 70: National Electrical Code®

Chose preview this document, agree to the terms, and look for Article 250 Grounding in the table of contents.

[skamp]

We normally use copper cladded rods, but zinc plated are available, and the differences are due to geographical/market locations.

The connection to the rod is usually just below grade, to help with insuring all 8 feet are in the ground, and helps with physical protection of the connection.The connector we use is called an "acorn" because of it's shape, has one bolt that tightens on the rod, and squeezes the wire onto the rod.

After thinking about it, I had to check, and seems I am imposing our local practices onto you.

A supplemental ground rod is only required if the main grounding electrode is a metal water pipe. So looks like your area is fine with one rod. This is what happens with me blending national code with my local code. Having it pounded in my head for 30 years, no pun intended, that two electrodes be used, always, whether it is a water line or a rod, I end up giving the wrong advice to others in different areas.

Living in New England, the land is all hills, mountains, and ledge, and we have a serious grounding problem here. So all local and state codes require AT LEAST two grounding electrodes, and sometimes more,no matter what. The resistance of any ground needs to be 25 ohms or less, and we have a real difficult time getting down to 25 ohms, let alone less.

Soil conditions have a great deal to do with good grounding. It is a real challange here trying to drive an 8 foot rod when there is ledge 2 feet below grade. And the soil can be dry because it is so rocky or sandy, and the water aquifer is down 100+ feet running thru fractures in the rock.

This is why local codes should always be checked. But if this is the worst advice I offer, all it costs is $10.00, and exceeds the national code.

So looks like your area is fine with one rod. If you were to install two rods, then the wire needs to be continuous from the neutral bar all the way to the last electrode. There is no certain depth the wire needs to be from building to rod to rod, just as long as it is kept below grade to protect it from physical damage. Again check with local code on this.

Yes use the one rod for all other grounds such as phone and cable.

If you like you can review the National Code at:

NFPA 70: National Electrical Code®

Chose preview this document, agree to the terms, and look for Article 250 Grounding in the table of contents.

Ok, sounds great. I may call someone to have it checked to make sure it is below 25 ohms. We have bad lightning so grounding is critical to my surge protectors. I have some series mode surge protectors that don't shunt to ground but those are only on my very expensive gear. Everything else is using MOV based protectors which rely on ground. It is worth it to me to make sure I have a proper ground. Again, thanks for all the help. You have been great!

Steve

[skamp]

We normally use copper cladded rods, but zinc plated are available, and the differences are due to geographical/market locations.

The connection to the rod is usually just below grade, to help with insuring all 8 feet are in the ground, and helps with physical protection of the connection.The connector we use is called an "acorn" because of it's shape, has one bolt that tightens on the rod, and squeezes the wire onto the rod.

After thinking about it, I had to check, and seems I am imposing our local practices onto you.

A supplemental ground rod is only required if the main grounding electrode is a metal water pipe. So looks like your area is fine with one rod. This is what happens with me blending national code with my local code. Having it pounded in my head for 30 years, no pun intended, that two electrodes be used, always, whether it is a water line or a rod, I end up giving the wrong advice to others in different areas.

Living in New England, the land is all hills, mountains, and ledge, and we have a serious grounding problem here. So all local and state codes require AT LEAST two grounding electrodes, and sometimes more,no matter what. The resistance of any ground needs to be 25 ohms or less, and we have a real difficult time getting down to 25 ohms, let alone less.

Soil conditions have a great deal to do with good grounding. It is a real challange here trying to drive an 8 foot rod when there is ledge 2 feet below grade. And the soil can be dry because it is so rocky or sandy, and the water aquifer is down 100+ feet running thru fractures in the rock.

This is why local codes should always be checked. But if this is the worst advice I offer, all it costs is $10.00, and exceeds the national code.

So looks like your area is fine with one rod. If you were to install two rods, then the wire needs to be continuous from the neutral bar all the way to the last electrode. There is no certain depth the wire needs to be from building to rod to rod, just as long as it is kept below grade to protect it from physical damage. Again check with local code on this.

Yes use the one rod for all other grounds such as phone and cable.

If you like you can review the National Code at:

NFPA 70: National Electrical Code®

Chose preview this document, agree to the terms, and look for Article 250 Grounding in the table of contents.

One last question (I promise!). If I want to add a second ground rod, I assume I just pound in another zinc rod at least 6' feet away and run a new ground wire from the new rod to the old and then to the panel. Can I leave my original rod above ground by the 1-2"? It is right next to the house so the potential for triping or damage is almost 0. I would pound the new below grade. Thanks!

Steve

[tkrussell]

Sure, leave the first rod as is. And don't worry about questions, that is what this forum is here for.