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adthern · Dec 20, 2010, 03:52 PM

I am working in a very tight space with a sink, tub, toilet and vent to connect. The main waste pipe from this area is cast iron, the rest of the drain connections are PVC. The vent was nonexistant when I started and there was an incredible problem with siphoning and slow/no draining.

This is what I have so far, I am not sure if I need to cut the cast iron to make it straight (it angles towards the toilet) or to connect an angled piece to make it straighter or something else?

and the two pieces of 1 1/2 pvc that connect the sink to the vent and out... some kind of mix of 22.5's maybe... help on that one?

And lastly, since the sink and the tub are going together but only for a foot or so is the 1 1/2 OK to leave as it is since it opens into 3 and then 4 inch within a few inches?

http://picasaweb.google.com/adthern/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCKjRvPSuxMC11wE#555289922751 5499106

http://picasaweb.google.com/adthern/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCKjRvPSuxMC11wE#555289923432 1782690

None of this is glued, its just dry fit...

thanks,

Adam

ps don't laugh to hard at me lol

ballengerb1 · Dec 20, 2010, 04:28 PM

It could be me but I could not open your pics, can you try again? Your sink and tub on 1 1/2 should be fine and so is the angled drain for the toilet. Picasso say you have no album

massplumber2008 · Dec 20, 2010, 05:42 PM

Not just you, Bob. I had trouble opening the album as well.

Try again, Adam... ;)

Mark

joypulv · Dec 20, 2010, 05:46 PM

Angles are easy with PVC because you can fudge straight, 90s, 22.5s, to get the slope needed. Sometimes it's easier just to nuke all the cast iron.
Your vent... Why isn't it straight up from the toilet with the tub and sink revented into it the proper height above their respective drains?

joypulv · Dec 20, 2010, 05:47 PM

I copied the link into my browser with no problem.

massplumber2008 · Dec 20, 2010, 05:50 PM

Hmmm... I tried again... still no luck! It shows 0 albums, Adam? Curious that Joypulv pulled it up no problem... huh?

joypulv · Dec 20, 2010, 06:03 PM

They are gone now. I still have the pics though. Can't copy them?

massplumber2008 · Dec 20, 2010, 06:04 PM

Hey! Thanks for trying... :)

adthern · Dec 21, 2010, 01:44 AM

Sorry about the picasa issues (fingers crossed) try this copy and paste

Picasa Web Albums - Adam Phipps - plumbing

Thx,

Adam

adthern · Dec 21, 2010, 02:00 AM

I am hoping that the pictures worked (sorry about that).

So far this is what I have taken away from you guys (and thanks) the 1 1/2 is OK for the tub and sink (HD guy said it needed to be bigger if the tub and sink wyed in) that helps.

Even harsh angles are OK (so long as the pitch is there).

Speaking of pitch it is 1/8-1/4 inch per foot right?

As for nuking the cast iron... when you see the pictures you may not see the whole opening, I will post more pictures later, I would need to open up several walls and ceilings from where I am. I think that would throw me over the edge... lol

As for the positioning of the vent... directly above the entire plumbing work area sits a hot water heater, no vent was ever put in, what I added was an AAV behind the water heater (so I could access it as needed) and I am planning on putting in an other AAV at the sink (more than 5 feet from the newly installed AAV).

Hope I didn't miss anything... I have another bizarely done plumbing area in the basement which I haven't had the nerve to look at till this one is completed... washing machine, sink and mainstack all look like a crazy straw with a basement bathroom tied in... oh don't get me started... lol

massplumber2008 · Dec 21, 2010, 05:25 AM

Hi Adam...

Only 2 pictures posted so still not able to get a complete picture here.

That being said, what I do see so far is not done according to plumbing code anywhere I know of... *UGH*... sorry.

For what it is worth:

No sanitary tee fittings on horizontal drain lines unless specifically for a vent... so that rubber toilet sanitary tee is illegal.

The toilet vent needs to connect AFTER the toilet.

You can get away with 1.5" for tub and sink, but not if you are wet venting the toilet and tub using the lavatory vent. Here, it would need to be 2" drain and vent.

Finally, I hate to rain on your parade, but want you to be properly informed so you can make the best decisions for your job, OK?

Post the rest of the pictures... I'll pop in after work and let you know what I think... ;)

PS: I'll bet you want to let me know what you REALLY THINK, huh? *OUCH*

Mark

adthern · Dec 21, 2010, 06:35 AM

Originally Posted by massplumber2008

Hi Adam....

Only 2 pictures posted so still not able to get a complete picture here.

That being said, what I do see so far is not done according to plumbing code anywhere I know of...*UGH*...sorry.

For what it is worth:

No sanitary tee fittings on horizontal drain lines unless specifically for a vent....so that rubber toilet sanitary tee is illegal.

The toilet vent needs to connect AFTER the toilet.

You can get away with 1.5" for tub and sink, but not if you are wet venting the toilet and tub using the lavatory vent. Here, it would need to be 2" drain and vent.

Finally, I hate to rain on your parade, but want you to be properly informed so you can make the best decisions for your job, OK?

Post the rest of the pictures....I'll pop in after work and let you know what I think...;)

PS: I'll bet you want to let me know what you REALLY THINK, huh?? *OUCH*

Mark

Rain away... ugh...

Posting what I have and can take more if needed, though there isn't a lot more to really take.

So I need to replace the fernco with a regular pvc connection... ouch is right... but OK... I had bough another which I was thinking of using, though it's a sharper angle which was why I thought that would be better... damn code!

I didn't think toilets needed their own vent, there is a vent stack further down the line from the toilet, I will try and get some kind of picture in the wall...

So aside from it being completely wrong, its good... lol?

massplumber2008 · Dec 21, 2010, 07:50 AM

Hi Adam...

Sorry again... I certainly know what a pain the codes can be.

For the toilet use a combination wye & 1/8th bend fitting or make your own combo. Fitting using a wye and a street 45.

You could use the lavatory to WET VENT the toilet and the tub, but the connection will have to go after the wye (towards the vent you mentioned). I will draw this up for you later on, OK?

I'll wait for the other pics on the toilet vent to clear this up... let me know when they are posted.

Mark

adthern · Dec 21, 2010, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by massplumber2008

Hi Adam...

Sorry again...I certainly know what a pain the codes can be.

For the toilet use a combination wye & 1/8th bend fitting or make your own combo. fitting using a wye and a street 45.

You could use the lavatory to WET VENT the toilet and the tub, but the connection will have to go after the wye (towards the vent you mentioned). I will draw this up for you later on, OK?

I'll wait for the other pics on the toilet vent to clear this up...let me know when they are posted.

Mark

I really appreciate the help, if I didn't want to do it (at least semi) correct I wouldn't have asked... lol

I put some more pictures up and a diagram that more or less shows what I can see... its bizare plumbing all over the place, which I am trying to fix one piece at a time.

Now I opened up a coverup for the CI stack and its funky (see picture) it's like crystalized or something, not sure how else to put it!

The vent that goes up is CI and short of cutting it... and Im really not wanting to do that at all... (killing someone, making roof leak, taking out a wall or ceiling) who knows what might happen at that point... yikes

massplumber2008 · Dec 21, 2010, 10:27 AM

Hey Adam...

I just reviewed the old pics. Again and it looks like I was mistaken on the big rubber fitting for the toilet.

That fitting IS a combination wye & 1/8th so it would definitely work here. But now that I've said that, these rubber fittings are also against code. I didn't mention that earlier as I thought you wouldn't be using it... *UGH*. They may sell them but they are against code in Massachusetts. Ridiculous, I know. Of course, In Mass. you as a homeowner can't even touch plumbing to begin with, so technically these issues aren't supposed to even come up. They still let the home supply stores sell the stuff though.

I will continue to look at this and will share my thoughts.

I also got your email... I can't pop over there to help, but I can talk to you on the phone, OK? Send me your number via private message and a few times you will be available later tonight. I think this one warrants that approach!

Let me know...

Mark

adthern · Dec 21, 2010, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by massplumber2008

Hey Adam...

I just reviewed the old pics. again and it looks like I was mistaken on the big rubber fitting for the toilet.

That fitting IS a combination wye & 1/8th so it would definitely work here. But now that I've said that, these rubber fittings are also against code. I didn't mention that earlier as I thought you wouldn't be using it...*UGH*. They may sell them but they are against code in Massachusetts. Ridiculous, I know. Of course, In Mass., you as a homeowner can't even touch plumbing to begin with, so technically these issues aren't supposed to even come up. They still let the home supply stores sell the stuff though.

I will continue to look at this and will share my thoughts.

I also got your email...I can't pop over there to help, but I can talk to you on the phone, OK? Send me your number via private message and a few times you will be available later tonight. I think this one warrants that approach!

Let me know...

Mark

I will Pm you...

So how the hell do you connect CI to PVC if you can't use the ruber things?

massplumber2008 · Dec 21, 2010, 01:37 PM

Good question. In Mass. And most places you are required to use SHIELDED MISSION CLAMPS, also called proflex clamps or transition clamps... see images. The all rubber fittings have no strength/structure to them whereas these SHIELDED clamps have that metal sleeve on the outside which adds great strength against shear and compression forces. You also cannot use regular NOHUB clamps... only use these on nohub cast iron fittings which you don't have, but I wanted you to know about them as they are NOT the same as a shielded mission clamp.

I also posted a 4 band husky clamp... see last image. I will explain that when I call.

Do you have a republic plumbing supply company near you? Let me know.

I'll check the PM and be in touch later tonight. I'm back off to work now... ;)

Mark

adthern · Dec 21, 2010, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by massplumber2008

Good question. In Mass. and most places you are required to use SHIELDED MISSION CLAMPS, also called proflex clamps or transition clamps...see images. The all rubber fittings have no strength/structure to them whereas these SHIELDED clamps have that metal sleeve on the outside which adds great strength against shear and compression forces. You also cannot use regular NOHUB clamps...only use these on nohub cast iron fittings which you don't have, but I wanted you to know about them as they are NOT the same as a shielded mission clamp.

I also posted a 4 band husky clamp...see last image. I will explain that when I call.

Do you have a republic plumbing supply company near you? let me know.

I'll check the PM and be in touch later tonight. I'm back off to work now...;)

Mark

Ok, I have seen the mission and husky clamps, the nearest republic is probably brookline from me... (northshore) though there is an avon plumbing and an fw webb...

The shearing force rationale actually makes sense to me...

Now the question is; do I have enough room to straighten out the angle on the CI or should I rent(?) a chain cutter thing for CI? (and of course would that even work on an angle like that?). Ok, look forward to talking with you...

massplumber2008 · Dec 21, 2010, 05:08 PM

We talked by phone...

Code violations discussed for future readers:

Rubber/Neoprene wye fitting, no good.

AAVs are illegal in Massachusetts.

1.5" regular pattern 90 that goes from horizontal to horizontal needs to be a long sweep elbow.

PVC combination wye and a shielded mission clamp needs to be installed.

Otherwise, after discussing all this everything will be vented by the main vent stack (toilet) and the tub and sink by the sink AAV (better than no vent, right?).

We also talked about cutting into the old cast iron piping via sawzall with a lennox diamond blade to lengthen the work area to offset the main drain line and align all work.

Adam, let us know if/when you need more, OK?

Mark

PS: Mission clamps are available at FW WEBB.

adthern · Dec 22, 2010, 07:26 AM

Originally Posted by massplumber2008

We talked by phone...

Code violations discussed for future readers:

Rubber/Neoprene wye fitting, no good.

AAVs are illegal in Massachusetts.

1.5" regular pattern 90 that goes from horizontal to horizontal needs to be a long sweep elbow.

PVC combination wye and a shielded mission clamp needs to be installed.

Otherwise, after discussing all this everything will be vented by the main vent stack (toilet) and the tub and sink by the sink AAV (better than no vent, right?).

We also talked about cutting into the old cast iron piping via sawzall with a lennox diamond blade to lengthen the work area to offset the main drain line and align all work.

Adam, let us know if/when you need more, OK?

Mark

PS: Mission clamps are available at FW WEBB.

I have to say I am still digesting it all...

After looking further at the CI pipes we discussed (after opening up an area that was enclosed, I discovered a segment that was compromised) I decided that the only way to really do this right is to take out as much of the CI in the area as possible to decrease the possibility of leakage (not what I wanted, but what's needed). After discussing it with my family, I agree we willwait until after I take the bar exam in July to start, that way we can go go go after that...

So, it will be a while but I will get back to everyone and share more pictures of what's finished and beg for more help on whatever freaking new disaster pops up... lol