[sndbay]

It seems that whenever a cl;aim is made about purgatory, that claim is subsequently denied when scripture is brought forward discrediting that view. It is like trying to nail jelly to a wall.

Fred said in a recently message that purgatory was a positive doctrine because due to purgatory, people can get to heaven.

This is such a good reality check on what has been said again and again. Tj3 is correct and I agree. We can only point to Christ {{who is}} the Truth forever, and for all.

[ScottRC]

If he is not trying to prove the existence of purgatory by referring to 1 Peter 1:7, then why is he referring to it?

Oh vey... you just won't quit with this.

One more time... Catholic theology DOES NOT rely upon Scripture alone as the sole source of divine revelation, but Scripture and Tradition.

I have NEVER claimed that purgatory is self-evident from Scripture alone and tried to make it quite clear that all I have been doing in offering Scriptural support is to show the IDEA of purgatory is Biblical... and again, have NEVER stated that any verse put forth by me should be taken as a "proof text" for purgatory.

Why in the world do you insist on subjecting me to a non-Catholic standard of exegesis.

One more time in the hope it will finally sink in for you educated fellows: I NEVER stated or even implied that I was trying to PROVE the teaching of purgatory by offering scripture... simply that it was a Biblical CONCEPT.

... and again, this CONCEPT is supported by prayers for the dead... that you can't see that is why I offered it should in NO WAY be interpreted as dishonest... that's just rude and judgemental on your part.

I really take offense at the implication that Luther was a lone maverick in not accepting the Apocrypha as scripture.

Please show me where I stated it was Luther ALONE that did not accept the "apocrypha".

It's as if he's going to imply that Luther was the first to have a problem with including the Apocrypha in the OT canon and

Please show me where I stated Luther was the first.

I don't see that as an honest way to discuss a topic.

At least we have this in common... looking forward to hearing your replies.

S

[ScottRC]

Poor scholarship to use opinion and inference as a straw man... what is offered here is demonstrably false.

[Tj3]

Thank you Tom. That was the same point that I was trying to make in post #373, but you pointed it out in a more neat and tidy manner. If he is not trying to prove the existence of purgatory by referring to 1 Peter 1:7, then why is he referring to it? Do you understand it? I don't.

No, I don't understand it.

I really take offense at the implication that Luther was a lone maverick in not accepting the Apocrypha as scripture.

Quite right. Opposition goes back to the Jews and even to Jerome as I pointed out previously. I also showed him where the New Catholic Encyclopedia stated that the decision to add the Apochrypha came at the Council of Trent, but he ignored it. I have shown them where internal evidence in 2 Maccabees denies divine inspiration, but he ignores it.

[Lilmkiss]

Well, this would only "discredit" purgatory if we taught that we are forgiven through another means besides Christ.... and since this is not the case, I'm not sure how this discredits anything but your mistaken assumptions about purgatory.

First of all if we are forgiven, God no longer see's our sin. It is not that our sin is not there but it is blotted out by Jesus Christ

Bible quote
Hebrews 1 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain



Hebrews 1
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

"(T)he term purgatory does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence", where Christ "removes ... the remnants of imperfection"
-Servant of God Pope John Paul II

This is a despret attempt to use the voice of man to depict God's will. It is by no mans judgement that God will ever subject his will, but only through his holy spirit. And when it comes to purgatory, the human soul will never have to enter it. This is because Jesus Christ' blood has already blotted out our sin, no longer visible to God, allowing us to grow closer to him. (Jesus has already, through the cross, removed our sin and imperfections)

[tsila1777]

Huh?

"Back to purgatory".... what does that mean?

Huh? part two

What does this have to do with purgatory?

Purgatory is not hell.

:confused:

Can you do a word search? The same word used for Hell is also translated as Hades, Gehenna, and Sheol and since the word purgatory is not in the Holy Word of God, it is hard to do a word search on it. But I have found that it also is translated as hell.

The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. (604) The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: (605)
The state in which souls undergo this experience is often referred to as Hades.


The Orthodox Confession of Peter moqila(1596-1646), adopted, in a Greek translation by Meletius Syrigos, by the 1642 Council of Jassy, in Romania, professes that "many are freed from the prison of Hell... through the good works of the living and the Church's prayers for them, most of all through the unbloody sacrifice, which is offered on certain days for all the living and the dead"


Romans 3:24: "...Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"

Romans 8:1: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus..."

1 Corinthians 6:11: "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus..."

Titus 2:14: "Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify onto himself a peculiar people.

Hebrews 10:14: "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

1 John 1:7: "...the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin."

1 John 1:7: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleans us from all unrighteousness."



Jesus is all we need.

[Lilmkiss]

(mispost)

[JoeT777]

This is a despret attempt to use the voice of man to depict God's will. It is by no mans judgement that God will ever subject his will, but only through his holy spirit. And when it comes to purgatory, the human soul will never have to enter it. This is because Jesus Christ' blood has already blotted out our sin, no longer visible to God, allowing us to grow closer to him. (Jesus has already, through the cross, removed our sin and imperfections)

Before we enter into full communion with God, every trace of sin within us must be eliminated and every imperfection in our soul must be corrected


No its not a despret attempt to depict God's will, but rather with fear and trembling we work out our salvation. (Cf. Phil 2:12).

I must confess that I’ve only read the last page (of 35 pages) of this thread. If Pope John Paul II’s comments have already been posted, I apologize; if not may be helpful in determining the Catholic view of Purgatory.

During a General Audience in August 1999 His Holiness John Paul II explained that, "the term purgatory does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence", where Christ "removes ... the remnants of imperfection". The following is excerpts from his catecheses (teaching):

1. For those who find themselves in a condition of being open to God, but still imperfectly, the journey towards full beatitude requires a purification, which the faith of the Church illustrates in the doctrine of "Purgatory" (cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 1030-1032).

To share in divine life we must be totally purified

According to Old Testament religious law, what is destined for God must be perfect. As a result, physical integrity is also specifically required for the realities which come into contact with God at the sacrificial level such as, for example, sacrificial animals (cf. Lv 22: 22) or at the institutional level, as in the case of priests or ministers of worship (cf. Lv 21: 17-23). Total dedication to the God of the Covenant, along the lines of the great teachings found in Deuteronomy (cf. 6: 5), and which must correspond to this physical integrity, is required of individuals and society as a whole (cf. 1 Kgs 8: 61). It is a matter of loving God with all one's being, with purity of heart and the witness of deeds (cf. ibid., 10: 12f.)

2. The need for integrity obviously becomes necessary after death, for entering into perfect and complete communion with God. Those who do not possess this integrity must undergo purification. (1 Cor 3: 14-15).

3. At times, to reach a state of perfect integrity a person's intercession or mediation is needed. For example, Moses obtains pardon for the people with a prayer in which he recalls the saving work done by God in the past, and prays for God's fidelity to the oath made to his ancestors (cf. Ex 32: 30, 11-13). (cf. Is 52: 13-53, 12, especially vv. 53: 11).

Psalm 51 can be considered, according to the perspective of the Old Testament, as a synthesis of the process of reintegration: the sinner confesses and recognizes his guilt (v. 3), asking insistently to be purified or "cleansed" (vv. 2, 9, 10, 17) so as to proclaim the divine praise (v. 15).

Purgatory is not a place but a condition of existence

4. In the New Testament Christ is presented as the intercessor who assumes the functions of high priest on the day of expiation (cf. Heb 5: 7; 7: 25). But in him the priesthood is presented in a new and definitive form. He enters the heavenly shrine once and for all, to intercede with God on our behalf (cf. Heb 9: 23-26, especially, v. 24). He is both priest and "victim of expiation" for the sins of the whole world (cf. 1 Jn 2: 2).

This offer of mercy does not exclude the duty to present ourselves to God, pure and whole, rich in that love which Paul calls a "[bond] of perfect harmony" (Col 3: 14).

5. In following the Gospel exhortation to be perfect like the heavenly Father (cf. Mt 5: 48) during our earthly life, we are called to grow in love, to be sound and flawless before God the Father "at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints" (1 Thes 3: 12f.). Moreover, we are invited to "cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit" (2 Cor 7: 1; cf. 1 Jn 3: 3), because the encounter with God requires absolute purity.

Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected. Purification must be complete, and indeed this is precisely what is meant by the Church's teaching on purgatory.

6. One last important aspect which the Church's tradition has always pointed out should be re-proposed today: the dimension of "communion". Those, in fact, who find themselves in the state of purification are united both with the blessed who already enjoy the fullness of eternal life, and with us on this earth on our way towards the Father's house (cf. CCC, n. 1032).

Just as in their earthly life believers are united in the one Mystical Body, so after death those who live in a state of purification experience the same ecclesial solidarity which works through prayer, prayers for suffrage and love for their other brothers and sisters in the faith. Purification is lived in the essential bond created between those who live in this world and those who enjoy eternal beatitude.

This is taught by the Magisterium of the RCC. It is based on Apostolic Teachings as well as Holy Scripture of the One, Holy, Catholic and apostolic Church, founded by Christ and built on Peter who carries the keys of Heaven.

JoeT

[Tj3]

Before we enter into full communion with God, every trace of sin within us must be eliminated and every imperfection in our soul must be corrected

Jesus does the perfecting, not purgatory.

Heb 10:14-15
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV

I must confess that I’ve only read the last page (of 35 pages) of this thread. If Pope John Paul II’s comments have already been posted, I apologize; if not may be helpful in determining the Catholic view of Purgatory.

I don't know about others, but I am not interested in the popes opinion - it is the opinion of a fallible man explaining your denomination's stance. What is important, and should matter to all who profess the name of Christ is what God has told us in His word about salvation. BTW, I am personally very aware of your denomination's position.

According to Old Testament religious law, what is destined for God must be perfect. As a result, physical integrity is also specifically required for the realities which come into contact with God at the sacrificial level such as, for example, sacrificial animals (cf. Lv 22: 22) or at the institutional level, as in the case of priests or ministers of worship (cf. Lv 21: 17-23). Total dedication to the God of the Covenant, along the lines of the great teachings found in Deuteronomy (cf. 6: 5), and which must correspond to this physical integrity, is required of individuals and society as a whole (cf. 1 Kgs 8: 61). It is a matter of loving God with all one's being, with purity of heart and the witness of deeds (cf. ibid. 10: 12f.)

This is not the perfection God seeks.

Heb 10:5-7
5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

"Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come--
In the volume of the book it is written of Me--
To do Your will, O God.' "
NKJV

None of this worked. Further, this was under the law and was symbolic of what was to come with Christ's sacrifice on the cross. Read Galatians 3. If you are looking to purgatory as being a means of perfecting yourself to be acceptable to God, then you are looking in the wrong place according to scripture.

[Tj3]

This is taught by the Magisterium of the RCC. It is based on Apostolic Teachings as well as Holy Scripture of the One, Holy, Catholic and apostolic Church, founded by Christ and built on Peter who carries the keys of Heaven.
JoeT

The rest of you message has been addressed many times, so let me focus on this ending.

Based on Apostolic Teachings? If it were, you would be able to demonstrate it's consistency with scripture. But in many places, it contradicts scripture, therefore it cannot be representative of apostolic teachings.

Based upon Holy Scripture? So far no one has been able to bring forward scripture which, when read in context, supports any aspect of the belief in purgatory, therefore it cannot be based upon Holy Scripture.

Built on Peter? This is a direct contradiction of scripture:

1 Cor 3:10-11
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
NKJV

Peter has the keys? Again a contradiction of scripture:

Rev 1:18-19
18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
NKJV

[JoeT777]

Jesus does the perfecting, not purgatory.

Then why does Scripture say that YOU shall pay for every last mite. (Luke 12:59); I say to thee, thou shalt not go out thence until thou pay the very last mite.

And what kind of prison do we go to where we are handed over by the judge to the jailor until every last penny is paid? Mt 5:25-26 Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.

Christ will offer to God those that are pure and those still in Purgatory will be taught by Christ. 1 Pet 3:19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

If we sin why are we saved, and how can we be saved by fire? 1 Cor 3:15; If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

And Purgatory can exist here on earth being disciplined by God's chastisement.
Heb 12:6-11 For whom the Lord loveth he chastiseth: and he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 Persevere under discipline. God dealeth with you as with his sons. For what son is there whom the father doth not correct? 8 But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards and not sons. 9 Moreover, we have had fathers of our flesh for instructors, and we reverenced them. Shall we not much more obey the Father of spirits and live? 10 And they indeed for a few days, according to their own pleasure, instructed us: but he, for our profit, that we might receive his sanctification. 11 Now all chastisement for the present indeed seemeth not to bring with it joy, but sorrow: but afterwards it will yield to them that are exercised by it the most peaceable fruit of justice.

Why would Matthew talk about forgiving sins or not forgiving sins in the next world if in fact there were no Purgatory? Mt 12:32 32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

And the following relate to Purgatory:

Rev 21:27 There shall not enter into it any thing defiled or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie: but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.

Heb 12:23 And to the church of the firstborn who are written in the heavens, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the just made perfect,

Col 1:24; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

2Sam 12:14 Nevertheless, because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, for this thing, the child that is born to thee, shall surely die.

2 Mac 12:43-46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins..

2 Tim 1:15-18 A faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the chief. 16 But for this cause have I obtained mercy: that in me first Christ Jesus might show forth all patience, for the information of them that shall believe in him unto life everlasting. 17 Now to the king of ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen... prayer for Onesiphorus for "that Day."

1 Jn 5:14-17 And this is the confidence which we have towards him: That, whatsoever we shall ask according to his will, he heareth us. 15 And we know that he heareth us whatsoever we ask: we know that we have the petitions which we request of him. 16 He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask: and life shall be given to him who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death. For that I say not that any man ask... mortal/venial sins

Heb 10:14-15
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. NKJV

Why should I disagree with this? Yes, Christ paid for our sins. But, “thou pay the very last mite.”

I don't know about others, but I am not interested in the popes opinion - it is the opinion of a fallible man explaining your denomination's stance. What is important, and should matter to all who profess the name of Christ is what God has told us in His word about salvation. BTW, I am personally very aware of your denomination's position.

As a man, he may be as big a sinner as me. As the Pope, in matters of our faith, he is infallible.
Insofar as the Church is concerned, since there is an Apostolic Succession, what you call the Roman Church is, and has been, the Church of Jesus Christ. So even if you consider it a courtesy, I would appreciate it if you would refer to it as a “Church.” The reference to “denomination” is beginning to become offensive.

This is not the perfection God seeks.

And this is according to Tom; or Scripture? It's God's grace that there is a state of Purgatory.

Heb 10:5-7
5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me. 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure. 7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come--In the volume of the book it is written of Me--To do Your will, O God.' “ NKJV

None of this worked. Further, this was under the law and was symbolic of what was to come with Christ's sacrifice on the cross. Read Galatians 3. If you are looking to purgatory as being a means of perfecting yourself to be acceptable to God, then you are looking in the wrong place according to scripture.

Galatians 3 is out of context with the subject of Purgatory. It's referring to the Jewish law (Old Testament).

The rest of you message has been addressed many times, so let me focus on this ending.

Based on Apostolic Teachings? If it were, you would be able to demonstrate it's consistency with scripture. But in many places, it contradicts scripture, therefore it cannot be representative of apostolic teachings.

You haven't demonstrated here where the Scriptures you quoted are in context with “Purgatory.”

Based upon Holy Scripture? So far no one has been able to bring forward scripture which, when read in context, supports any aspect of the belief in purgatory, therefore it cannot be based upon Holy Scripture.

You've only quoted two Scriptures?

The Church is a gateway to which is Christ.

The Church is, accordingly, a sheepfold, the sole and necessary gateway to which is Christ (Jn. 10:1-10). It is also a flock, of which God foretold that he would himself be the shepherd (cf. Is. 40:11; Ex. 34:11 f.), and whose sheep, although watched over by human shepherds, are nevertheless at all times led and brought to pasture by Christ himself, the Good Shepherd and prince of shepherds (cf. Jn. 10:11; 1 Pet. 5:4), who gave his life for his sheep (cf. Jn. 10:11-16). (LUMEN GENTIUM)

Built on Peter? This is a direct contradiction of scripture:

1 Cor 3:10-11
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
NKJV

Peter has the keys? Again a contradiction of scripture:

Rev 1:18-19
18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
NKJV

The order of bishops is the successor to the college of the apostles in their role as teachers and pastors, and in it the apostolic college is perpetuated. Together with their head, the Supreme Pontiff, and never apart from him, they have supreme and full authority over the universal Church;[27] but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff. The Lord made Peter alone the rock-foundation and the holder of the keys of the Church (cf. Mt. 16:18-19), and constituted him shepherd of his whole flock (cf. Jn. 21:15 ff.). It is clear, however, that the office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter (Mt. 16:19), was also assigned to the college of the apostles united to its head (Mt. 18:18; 28:16-20).[28] This college, in so far as it is composed of many members, is the expression of the multifariousness and universality of the People of God; and of the unity of the flock of Christ, in so far as it is assembled under one head. (LUMEN GENTIUM)

JoeT

[Wondergirl]

Insofar as the Church is concerned, since there is an Apostolic Session

Do you mean "Session" or "Succession"? Two very different meanings here...

[Peter Wilson]

Joe, I appreciate your zeal, but it's like you can't see the forest for the trees.
Like your under a kind of spell.
I know it's pointless to show you anything, but here we go again,

Romans 10

The Word of Faith Brings Salvation

1Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.
2For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

3For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

5For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.

6But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),

7or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."

8But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

11For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

13for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Start listening to the Holy Spirit, not man.
Peace. :cool:

[sndbay]

The Church is a gateway to which is Christ.

The Church is, accordingly, a sheepfold, the sole and necessary gateway to which is Christ (Jn. 10:1-10). It is also a flock, of which God foretold that he would himself be the shepherd (cf. Is. 40:11; Ex. 34:11 f.), and whose sheep, although watched over by human shepherds, are nevertheless at all times led and brought to pasture by Christ himself, the Good Shepherd and prince of shepherds (cf. Jn. 10:11; 1 Pet. 5:4), who gave his life for his sheep (cf. Jn. 10:11-16). (LUMEN GENTIUM)



The order of bishops is the successor to the college of the apostles in their role as teachers and pastors, and in it the apostolic college is perpetuated. Together with their head, the Supreme Pontiff, and never apart from him, they have supreme and full authority over the universal Church;[27] but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff. The Lord made Peter alone the rock-foundation and the holder of the keys of the Church (cf. Mt. 16:18-19), and constituted him shepherd of his whole flock (cf. Jn. 21:15 ff.). It is clear, however, that the office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter (Mt. 16:19), was also assigned to the college of the apostles united to its head (Mt. 18:18; 28:16-20).[28] This college, in so far as it is composed of many members, is the expression of the multifariousness and universality of the People of God; and of the unity of the flock of Christ, in so far as it is assembled under one head. (LUMEN GENTIUM)

JoeT

This all sounds as if you need the church as the vine to Christ. OR the church is made the vine. (gateway) That would be against scripture. Revelation 2:2-5 does refer a church that labors with patience, and can not stand for evil. And has for God name sake labored without fainting. BUT in verse 4 it also says NEVERTHELESS God has something against the church. The church has left it's first love.. It's obvious the church has put a love for itself or something other before Christ.. And they do it in the name sake of God..

Note the scripture does not lie for God does not lie. Why would you hand over the vine of Christ to the gateway called the church.

Refer: Mathew 27:50-53 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

This veil was once what the priest entered to give offerings to God for our sins. This veil was riped wide open by Christ giving us access into heaven. We have access through Christ the vine.

Hebrews 6:14-20 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation [is] to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed [it] by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Which [hope] we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Whither the forerunner is for us entered, [even] Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Have you not heard the oath God confirmed? Have you also not heard that Christ was made high priest forever after the order of Melchisedec?

Hebrews 9: 3-5 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein [was] the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.

This veil was riped open by Christ... Hebrews 9:6-10 is old time and the scripture explains this being what once was.

Hebrews 9:6-10 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service [of God]. But into the second [went] the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and [for] the errors of the people: The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.

This next scripture is what NOW is: Hebrews 9:11-12

Hebrews 9:11-12 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].

This scripture goes on to say that Christ does not have to do this as often as the priest did do. But now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Christ is the vine... Don't replace or put something other then Christ before Him.
Otherwise you follow a church like the church in Revelation 2:2-5 that has left it's first love.

[Tj3]

Then why does Scripture say that YOU shall pay for every last mite. (Luke 12:59); I say to thee, thou shalt not go out thence until thou pay the very last mite.

Where do you find purgatory in that passage? Read the context. It is referring to people who are alive.

And if you think that this refers to paying the price for your sins - consider this, indeed answer it - what do you have which is capable of paying off the tiniest little bit of sin? Justify your answer from scripture.

If we sin why are we saved, and how can we be saved by fire? 1 Cor 3:15; If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Why do Roman catholics not read what has been posted and keep just asking the same thing over and over?

1 Cor 3:11-16
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV

This refers to works. Works done for Christ will remain, but works done for other reason will not survive. This has nothing to do with purgatory. It has to do with works, not men being destroyed.

And Purgatory can exist here on earth being disciplined by God’s chastisement.
Heb 12:6-11

Look at the context:

Heb 12:3-6
3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

"My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives."
NKJV

The context is referring to how God deals with us while we are alive in the flesh. Nothing whatsoever could bend this to make it refer to purgatory or after death.

Why would Matthew talk about forgiving sins or not forgiving sins in the next world if in fact there were no Purgatory? Mt 12:32 32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

Matt 12:31-32
32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV

This speaks against the belief that we can pay for sins after death – there is no forgiveness after death, don't put your hope in paying for your sins in purgatory.

Rev 21:27 There shall not enter into it any thing defiled or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie: but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.

Rev 21:26-27
27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
NKJV

Right. For those who are saved, Jesus cleanses us of all unrighteousness, not purgatory.

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

Heb 12:23 And to the church of the firstborn who are written in the heavens, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the just made perfect,

Heb 12:22-24
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
NKJV

This refers to the perfection that comes through Christ's salvation, not purgatory.

Heb 10:13-15
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV

Col 1:24; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

Col 1:24-27
24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
NKJV

Note that this is “in my flesh”, not after death.

2Sam 12:14 Nevertheless, because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, for this thing, the child that is born to thee, shall surely die.

2 Sam 12:12-15
13 So David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14 However, because by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also who is born to you shall surely die." 15 Then Nathan departed to his house.
NKJV

Suffering in the flesh, not after death.

2 Mac 12:43-46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins..

2 Maccabees is not canonical and by internal evidence, is not the word of God:

2 Maccabees 15:38 If it is well told and to the point, that is what I myself desired. If it is poorly done and mediocre, it was the best that I could do.
NRSV

2 Tim 1:15-18 A faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the chief.. .

2 Tim 1:14-18
15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes. 16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain; 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me. 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day--and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.
NKJV

“In that day” refers to the fact that he is not yet dead.

1 Jn 5:14-17 And this is the confidence which we have towards him: That, whatsoever we shall ask according to his will, he heareth us. 15 And we know that he heareth us whatsoever we ask: we know that we have the petitions which we request of him. 16 He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask: and life shall be given to him who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death. For that I say not that any man ask... mortal/venial sins

1 John 5:14-17
14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him. 16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
NKJV

We cannot take scripture out of context.

Rom 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NKJV

There is one sins for which we need not pray because the is no forgiveness.

Matt 12:31-32
31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV

Why should I disagree with this? Yes, Christ paid for our sins. But, “thou pay the very last mite.”

This makes no sense, You are taking a passage out of context, and second, if Christ already paid it, why would we have to pay it again?

As a man, he may be as big a sinner as me. As the Pope, in matters of our faith, he is infallible.

And this is found in scripture where?

Insofar as the Church is concerned, since there is an Apostolic Session, what you call the Roman Church is, and has been, the Church of Jesus Christ. So even if you consider it a courtesy, I would appreciate it if you would refer to it as a “Church.” The reference to “denomination” is beginning to become offensive.

As a courtesy, I would like you to stop referring to it as "The Church". That is offensive since there are many other churches and denominations.

And this is according to Tom; or Scripture? It’s God’s grace that there is a state of Purgatory.

Then why is it not found in scripture?

Galatians 3 is out of context with the subject of Purgatory. It’s referring to the Jewish law (Old Testament).

I was responding to an argument for purgatory based upon Jewish law.

You haven’t demonstrated here where the Scriptures you quoted are in context with “Purgatory.”

We've been through a lot of scripture on this thread - which are you referring to?

You’ve only quoted two Scriptures?

Huh??

The Church is a gateway to which is Christ.

Your denomination is not a gateway to Christ. If you want to claim that your denomination is special, then show us where your denomination or any denomination is found in scripture (Yes, I refer to a denomination because that is what it is - it is not "The Church" - that is an arrogant and false claim.

[I] The order of bishops is the successor to the college of the apostles in their role as teachers and pastors, and in it the apostolic college is perpetuated. Together with their head, the Supreme Pontiff, and never apart from him, they have supreme and full authority over the universal Church

Just quoting documents from your denomination is not going to convince those who hold to God's word.

BTW, do you know that the title "Pontiff" is the title of the priest in the pgan Roman religion that Constantine amalgamated with the churches to create the Roman Catholic denomination?

[Lilmkiss]

Then why does Scripture say that YOU shall pay for every last mite. (Luke 12:59); I say to thee, thou shalt not go out thence until thou pay the very last mite.

In full context it says
Interpreting the Times
54He said to the crowd: "When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, 'It's going to rain,' and it does. 55And when the south wind blows, you say, 'It's going to be hot,' and it is. 56Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don't know how to interpret this present time?
57"Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right? 58As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled to him on the way, or he may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.[c]"

Understand that the word mite in Hebrew means half penny, this means that this is talking about a fiscal man made prison and not a spiritual prison. This is when Jesus was making a point to the people that as smart as they may think they are, they are ignorant of facts stanting right in fron of them.

And what kind of prison do we go to where we are handed over by the judge to the jailor until every last penny is paid? Mt 5:25-26 Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.

Murder
21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother[b]will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[c]' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.

25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Again you read this out of context again this is speaking of Murder, forgivness and a physical prison.

Christ will offer to God those that are pure and those still in Purgatory will be taught by Christ. 1 Pet 3:19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

Suffering for Doing Good
8Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble. 9Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing. 10For,
"Whoever would love life
and see good days
must keep his tongue from evil
and his lips from deceitful speech.
11He must turn from evil and do good;
he must seek peace and pursue it.
12For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous
and his ears are attentive to their prayer,
but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."[a]
13Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? 14But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. "Do not fear what they fear[b]; do not be frightened."[c] 15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. 17It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. 18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[d] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[e] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

AGAIN taking things out of context this is where Jesus went to preach in abrahams bussom to those who where already saved and going to heaven (JESUS NEVER WENT TO HELL! )

If we sin why are we saved, and how can we be saved by fire? 1 Cor 3:15; If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

On Divisions in the Church
1Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? 4For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men?
5What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

16Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? 17If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

18Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise. 19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness"[a]; 20and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."[b] 21So then, no more boasting about men! All things are yours, 22whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas[c] or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.

Again again and again you took this out of context this is a statement of us building a relationship with christ through the foundation that he laid and we will be tested on our relationship through persicution(fire) this is also a reference of a refining fire and again the refining fire of our relationship with christ is persicution this is not a perging but a test.

[Lilmkiss]

And Purgatory can exist here on earth being disciplined by God's chastisement.
Heb 12:6-11 For whom the Lord loveth he chastiseth: and he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 Persevere under discipline. God dealeth with you as with his sons. For what son is there whom the father doth not correct? 8 But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards and not sons. 9 Moreover, we have had fathers of our flesh for instructors, and we reverenced them. Shall we not much more obey the Father of spirits and live? 10 And they indeed for a few days, according to their own pleasure, instructed us: but he, for our profit, that we might receive his sanctification. 11 Now all chastisement for the present indeed seemeth not to bring with it joy, but sorrow: but afterwards it will yield to them that are exercised by it the most peaceable fruit of justice.

Please understand this is talking about when we are on earth! This again is saying that if we are not chastised or Persicuted then we are not with God. Here he is talking to the living people and not the dead.(you are treding in deep waters by adding meaning that arnt there and you will be condemd to hell if you start adding anything or taking away from anything the bible says according to
Deuteronomy 12
The One Place of Worship
1 These are the decrees and laws you must be careful to follow in the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, has given you to possess—as long as you live in the land. 2 Destroy completely all the places on the high mountains and on the hills and under every spreading tree where the nations you are dispossessing worship their gods. 3 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and burn their Asherah poles in the fire; cut down the idols of their gods and wipe out their names from those places.
4 You must not worship the LORD your God in their way. 5 But you are to seek the place the LORD your God will choose from among all your tribes to put his Name there for his dwelling. To that place you must go; 6 there bring your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, what you have vowed to give and your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks. 7 There, in the presence of the LORD your God, you and your families shall eat and shall rejoice in everything you have put your hand to, because the LORD your God has blessed you.
8 You are not to do as we do here today, everyone as he sees fit, 9 since you have not yet reached the resting place and the inheritance the LORD your God is giving you. 10 But you will cross the Jordan and settle in the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, and he will give you rest from all your enemies around you so that you will live in safety. 11 Then to the place the LORD your God will choose as a dwelling for his Name—there you are to bring everything I command you: your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, and all the choice possessions you have vowed to the LORD. 12 And there rejoice before the LORD your God, you, your sons and daughters, your menservants and maidservants, and the Levites from your towns, who have no allotment or inheritance of their own. 13 Be careful not to sacrifice your burnt offerings anywhere you please. 14 Offer them only at the place the LORD will choose in one of your tribes, and there observe everything I command you.
15 Nevertheless, you may slaughter your animals in any of your towns and eat as much of the meat as you want, as if it were gazelle or deer, according to the blessing the LORD your God gives you. Both the ceremonially unclean and the clean may eat it. 16 But you must not eat the blood; pour it out on the ground like water. 17 You must not eat in your own towns the tithe of your grain and new wine and oil, or the firstborn of your herds and flocks, or whatever you have vowed to give, or your freewill offerings or special gifts. 18 Instead, you are to eat them in the presence of the LORD your God at the place the LORD your God will choose—you, your sons and daughters, your menservants and maidservants, and the Levites from your towns—and you are to rejoice before the LORD your God in everything you put your hand to. 19 Be careful not to neglect the Levites as long as you live in your land.
20 When the LORD your God has enlarged your territory as he promised you, and you crave meat and say, "I would like some meat," then you may eat as much of it as you want. 21 If the place where the LORD your God chooses to put his Name is too far away from you, you may slaughter animals from the herds and flocks the LORD has given you, as I have commanded you, and in your own towns you may eat as much of them as you want. 22 Eat them as you would gazelle or deer. Both the ceremonially unclean and the clean may eat. 23 But be sure you do not eat the blood, because the blood is the life, and you must not eat the life with the meat. 24 You must not eat the blood; pour it out on the ground like water. 25 Do not eat it, so that it may go well with you and your children after you, because you will be doing what is right in the eyes of the LORD.
26 But take your consecrated things and whatever you have vowed to give, and go to the place the LORD will choose. 27 Present your burnt offerings on the altar of the LORD your God, both the meat and the blood. The blood of your sacrifices must be poured beside the altar of the LORD your God, but you may eat the meat. 28 Be careful to obey all these regulations I am giving you, so that it may always go well with you and your children after you, because you will be doing what is good and right in the eyes of the LORD your God.
29 The LORD your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But when you have driven them out and settled in their land, 30 and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, "How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same." 31 You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.
32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.

Why would Matthew talk about forgiving sins or not forgiving sins in the next world if in fact there were no Purgatory? Mt 12:32 32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

Jesus and Beelzebub
22Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. 23All the people were astonished and said, "Could this be the Son of David?"
24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub,[d] the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."
25Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
29"Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house.
30"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
33"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. 35The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

Again this was taken out of context meaning that if you refuse the ways of man (Beelzebub) then you will be forgiven your sins but if you refuse the holy spirit then you are condemning yourself to hell.

And the following relate to Purgatory:

Rev 21:27 There shall not enter into it any thing defiled or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie: but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.

Heb 12:23 And to the church of the firstborn who are written in the heavens, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the just made perfect,

Col 1:24; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

2Sam 12:14 Nevertheless, because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, for this thing, the child that is born to thee, shall surely die.

2 Mac 12:43-46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins..

2 Tim 1:15-18 A faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the chief. 16 But for this cause have I obtained mercy: that in me first Christ Jesus might show forth all patience, for the information of them that shall believe in him unto life everlasting. 17 Now to the king of ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.... prayer for Onesiphorus for "that Day."

1 Jn 5:14-17 And this is the confidence which we have towards him: That, whatsoever we shall ask according to his will, he heareth us. 15 And we know that he heareth us whatsoever we ask: we know that we have the petitions which we request of him. 16 He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask: and life shall be given to him who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death. For that I say not that any man ask.... mortal/venial sins

I encourage all of you reading this to read this in context as I had shown above because this has already got tired of fining the fallacy that this person is teaching read them in full context not just what is shown here. (non of these show any evidence for purgatory

As a man, he may be as big a sinner as me. As the Pope, in matters of our faith, he is infallible. Insofar as the Church is concerned, since there is an Apostolic Succession, what you call the Roman Church is, and has been, the Church of Jesus Christ. So even if you consider it a courtesy, I would appreciate it if you would refer to it as a “Church.” The reference to “denomination” is beginning to become offensive.

Two things I got to say, the pope is a man with a soul like any other man he is not only just as much of a sinner as us all but just as easily spiritually corrupt and would not have participated with all the other pagan religions in the multicultural festival if he followed what Jesus says about delving into other religions! Meaning that he is just as fallible spiritually as any other man!! Second you guys worship Mary the mother of Jesus to get to Jesus to talk to God where Jesus said John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” So truly you are the church of the mother of Jesus not the church of Jesus. And the roman catholic church is a denom no mater how you put it they are not with God because they don't just rely on God's word but tradition as well meaning it is no longer a relationship with God but rather a religion.

Look up to be absent from the body is to be with the lord. Also so why would Paul say this instead of to be absent from the body is to be in prison then the Lord? This is my question to you.

[Lilmkiss]

Before we enter into full communion with God, every trace of sin within us must be eliminated and every imperfection in our soul must be corrected

in the end when Jesus died on the cross he said It is finished meaning that we are all forgiven our sins when he accept him and are no long guilty of sin but are made holy. So if this is truly what you believe that we have to be corrected in some other fashon, did Jesus lie when he said it is finished?

No its not a despret attempt to depict God's will, but rather with fear and trembling we work out our salvation. (Cf. Phil 2:12).
JoeT

Shining as Stars
12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
14Do everything without complaining or arguing, 15so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe 16as you hold out[c] the word of life—in order that I may boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor for nothing. 17But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you. 18So you too should be glad and rejoice with me.

this again in context is talking about his peoples personal realationship of fear(meaning admiration for him) this is by no means proof for us working out our salvation it is showing that we are saved through this relationship and not by our own works.

[sndbay]

Then why does Scripture say that YOU shall pay for every last mite. (Luke 12:59); I say to thee, thou shalt not go out thence until thou pay the very last mite.

And what kind of prison do we go to where we are handed over by the judge to the jailor until every last penny is paid? Mt 5:25-26 Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.

JoeT

One should understand the book of Luke. 4:14 thr 9:21 The Kingdom - Proclaimed! And then Luke 9:22 thr 22:38 The Kingdom - Rejected ( Fourfold Ministry of the Lord)

Try to understand who this statement is refer to in Luke 12:59... Ye hypocrities, and what they do not seem able to do. They can't judge for themselves? So these hypocrities are either nonbelievers or they can not judge wrong doing. In other words they feel they could take advantage of someone for their own gain, and not owe anything in payment.
Now I ask you, do you need to believe in Christ to be saved? YES.. Do you think anyone or anything other then Christ can save them? No.. You yourself would be a hypocrite to think so. These that do not believe can not be placed in a make right purgatory.. Nor pay somehow for their unbelief, and their undesevered gains. You can't be the hypocrite and go to heaven.. That is what the verse in both Matthew and Luke is saying.

Double minded = can you think evil and be righteous?

Luke 12:56-59 Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time? Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right? When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, [as thou art] in the way, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison.I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite

[JoeT777]

All:

I’ve given up trying to respond to all the posts which are, based on the content, very decidedly Protestant in nature. It would simply take more time then I have to respond to all of these. Even still, I’d like to point out the condescending nature of these responses.

Tj3 asks, “Why do Roman Catholics not read what has been posted and keep just asking the same thing over and over?”

The question presumes that if a Protestant or Non-Denominational response isn’t given it’s not a correct and therefore nonresponsive.

Tj3 after reciting Matt 12: 31-32 presumes that the Catholic faith “speaks against belief.” Further, he suggests that His Holiness the Pope is “pagan.” .” [What amazes me here is that this is that even a Protestant can call the Roman Catholic Church “pagan” when it was that same Church that preserved the sacred Scripture for 1500 years, passing off to the non-Catholics to be misinterpreted, and continued maintaining them this past 500 years]

Peter Wilson recites Romans 10 in such a way as to presume that Catholics follow the Old Testament Law.

Sndbay seems to be indicating that his own scriptural interpretation outweigh the Words of Christ; Matt:16: 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And, with finesse I might add, eventually comes to call Catholics (or just me, I’m not sure which) hypocrites.

While in part I understand, I still expected much more civility.

Wow, I must say I’m amazed that Christians would shanghai Scripture to express their contempt for the Roman Church. Isn’t it the Protestant Rule of Faith that Scriptural interpretation is private and guided by the Holy Spirit? Conversely, Catholic doctrine holds “that no one, relying on his own skill, shall,--in matters of faith, and of morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine, --wresting the sacred Scripture to his own senses, presume to interpret the said sacred Scripture contrary to that sense which holy mother Church,--whose it is to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy Scriptures,--hath held and doth hold; or even contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers; even though such interpretations were never (intended) to be at any time published. Contraveners shall be made known by their Ordinaries, and be punished with the penalties by law established.” (Trent, Fourth Session, April 8, 1546)

To the best of my knowledge, the sense of the Scripture I presented did represent the view of the Church not a self serving goal.

JoeT