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tucsondoc · Aug 17, 2010, 09:21 AM

Vmom1, thanks for your prayers. I'll pray that you have reconciliation in your marriage too. I believe in the power of time to heal wounds. I'm a history buff, so I know very well that with time enemies can become friends.

Talaniman, if I can get past my initial hurt, I may be able to enjoy baseball again. She still will text me when her favorite pitcher is throwing strikes. While I feel baseball for her is an obsession that she's thrown herself into because she's unhappy with our marriage, there was I time when I enjoyed the game along with her. I'm beginning to see her new "friends" not as potential suitors, but rather, as examples of courteous conversation. I hope that with time the their newness wears off and she can finally go out on a date with me.

talaniman · Aug 17, 2010, 10:07 AM

Take this as a warning, waiting for something that may, or may not happen, is NOT what you do in a relationship, nor marriage, when its you being there to share your partners happiness (and sadness), is what counts.

Go back a reread your thread and see that you have already passed on many things you should have understood and shared with her to the detriment of you both. There was a lesson to be learned that NOT to assume you fixed things with words, and ignored the whole thing she was going through.

That's the disconnect you have now, and it will continue until you become actively involved, NOT with fixing things, but in SHARING the experience she goes through, good or bad. Its called loving support, and caring enough to just be there.

You are no different than any guy who breathes a sigh of relief when your female stops nagging or b1tching about one thing or another, because you think the issue is over, and fail to see that it is NOT. They may have stopped complaining because it's a waste of their time and tears to share with you. That's a disaster waiting to happen and all you have to do is pay attention, and give support as they deal, and cope with whatever is bothering them.

Heed my warning, and pay attention, and give time and effort to be there for her in what she does, not out of jealousy, or fear, or control, but because you know that's what she needs, and wants.

tucsondoc · Aug 17, 2010, 01:07 PM

I'm sorry, I've written a lot of stuff, and maybe I'm as dense as my wife thinks I am. What specifically should I have understood and shared with her? I realize that calling her a b**** came from my resenting her not being happy with what I was able to provide, and that there was a certain dissatisfaction with her life that I should have addressed. Still, I don't think it's fair that now that I am making a whole-hearted 180 change in my approach to our marriage that she won't give me another chance. She used to be Catholic, and was raised Apostolic Christian, so why doesn't she accept the concepts of forgiveness and reconciliation?

talaniman · Aug 17, 2010, 01:33 PM

It takes time, my friend, and your impatience for wanting her to understand your side of things is a killer. She can only see things through her own feelings of misery, and pain, which has been going on an awful long time. But of course you weren't paying attention to that then, and even now you ignore that fact. That's because you are seeing things through your own feelings.

Are we back to the concept of empathy again? Somebody is going in circles here, and its not me.

For once get out of self, to gain another perspective besides your own.

tucsondoc · Aug 17, 2010, 01:54 PM

So, she continue to be hurt and angry with me. This will go on as long as she chooses, regardless of what I say or do. The only thing I can do is be there for her. I cannot reason with her or have her look at the consequences of what a divorce would have on us or the kids. All she knows right now is that she in not happy with me, but is happy with her friends. So, she will spend time with them to get away from me and her unhappiness. She will watch baseball games to distract her from her unhappiness. We are supposed to go to a game next month. Should I not go with her if she asks me to stay home?

talaniman · Aug 17, 2010, 02:26 PM

No, nor should you press it. Sometimes its best if our partners work through there own stuff, in their own time, in their own way.

Tough when you have never done it before.

vmom1 · Aug 18, 2010, 06:05 AM

when its you being there to share your partners happiness (and sadness), is what counts.

That's the disconnect you have now, and it will continue until you become actively involved, NOT with fixing things, but in SHARING the experience she goes through, good or bad. Its called loving support, and caring enough to just be there.

Quote by Talaniman,
You are no different than any guy who breathes a sigh of relief when your female stops nagging or b1tching about one thing or another, because you think the issue is over, and fail to see that it is NOT. They may have stopped complaining because it's a waste of their time and tears to share with you. That's a disaster waiting to happen and all you have to do is pay attention, and give support as they deal, and cope with whatever is bothering them.

I agree with talaniman here: Sometimes we shut up because we just feel its fruitless, not that we are over it. I just got an email (from an email series I suscribed to) about this very question - here is a piece of it...

Everyday I get literally hundreds of emails from
people all over the world asking me their most pressing questions about their marriage.

People share with me their relationship stories that took years to unfold in a couple of short paragraphs. And then end with, "What should I
do?"

In most cases, it took years for their marriage to give birth to this question and the cause of their circumstances lies in the roots of their
marital and personal scripting. Nonetheless, they want an answer NOW and they want it in a reply email.

And you thought you had a tough job!

In the age of Fed Ex, high-speed internet, and 7-day diets, it's quite common for people to want to "microwave" their marriage to renewal. That will NEVER work.

When it comes to THINGS, you can be efficient. When it comes to relationships, there are no short cuts. It takes time.

Ironically, the search for a quick answer to your marital situation delays the process you will eventually have to go through. When it comes to
your marriage, slow is fast and fast is slow. In other words, if you try to go too fast and skip-over the necessary steps, you'll slow down
the whole process. But if you go slow and rebuild your marriage one step at a time...that's the fastest way.

It's a process, and it takes time. It took time to get this bad, it will take time to get better. My husband asked me last night "What is one thing I can do for you that will be right all the time?". That's a hard question, and I feel terrible that he thinks he is screwing up all the time, but the fact is he has not listened for so long he doesn't know where to start. I know I am part of this, and need to have more of a spirit of thankfulness, but we have gotten to a difficult place and only time, and small steps like the one he suggests, will get us back to a healthy relationship. I am only telling you this so you know you are not alone.

I don't agree it will go on as long as she chooses regardless of what you do or say. Being there for her, listening, will open doors. Is there some small thing you can do for her - not to get something from her, but that she just enjoys, that would help her see you are waiting patiently and want her companionship again? I had a friend whose husband brought her her nightly cup of tea every night for a year and they were barely speaking, but he did it no matter what. She finally saw his commitment and sincerety in this small act, and she began to open up to him.
It is hard, but you love her and love is worth it!

Keeping you in my prayers - thank you for doing the same.

tucsondoc · Aug 18, 2010, 09:12 AM

I understand that it will take time. My concern is that my efforts are being undermined by her continuing to talk about and communicate with her new "friends". Again, she feels they treated her kindly, whereas she feels I have not. I admit that I've not treated her the way I did when we first dated. But, we have so many other issues to deal with than when we first dated. I've told her it bothers me when she continues to talk about these guys, but she doesn't seem to care. I've not given her an ultimatum because then I'm putting her on my timeline for resolving these issues. Ideally, she would realize she doesn't need these guys for emotional support, as I would become her emotional support. That is my goal, but it's hard to gauge progress when she continue to blame me for her unhappiness and won't give me another chance.

A baby step was her actually buying a book on marital relationship, I believe it's "Too Good to Leave, too Bad to Stay". Now, she just needs to read it and see how it applies to our marriage.

talaniman · Aug 18, 2010, 01:37 PM

There you go again, telling her the best way to fix what you have neglected. You may not see her need for outside emotional support, but it's there, and it upsets you. Where was that emotional support before when she needed it? So why should she trust you for "emotional" support?

Then there is YOUR time line for fixes, and progress, when it should be define by you both, and your hoping she see YOUR way of thinking, and submit to it. From what you have written, these are the very things she is fighting against. Surely you can see her resistance to your plan, your way of thinking, and your "FIXES"!

Is there no way for you to see things except through your own eyes?? Empathy and patience are what you need, not ignoring what she is saying to you through her actions. All I see in your posts are jealousy and resentment. But no where have you taken responsibility for your own actions and tried to fix yourself.

Go ahead, give us the self improvement plan for YOU, and NOT HER.

Kitkat22 · Aug 18, 2010, 04:55 PM

Lord, I hate when people don't take advice. You want us to tell you what you want to hear? AIN'T
Going to happen.

Give her some space and let her breath. What I see is , ME, ME.
ME. You need to lighten up and get to know your wife. Stop with the questioning. Geeze

tucsondoc · Aug 18, 2010, 06:40 PM

I didn't buy the book, she bought it after her sister (who knows mostly my side because my wife won't talk to her about this) recommended it. It's sitting on our coffee table, as is the book "For Better, the Science of a Good Marriage". I don't ask her about our relationship anymore. We are housemates. I have gone to several therapy sessions, and the advice given is to just listen and not to lecture to her. I don't talk to her about the marriage anymore. I take the kids to school in the AM, help them with their homework and get them out of the house on weekends. I go to the gym early in the AM focus on work most of the time. I am cordial and polite with my wife, always wishing her a good night, to which she never responds. I let her watch her baseball games in peace.

tucsondoc · Aug 20, 2010, 09:09 PM

Well Kitkat 22, my wife it getting her breathing space. She went to see her "friend" tonight, the one she told that she was unhappy with her marriage. She says she is so unhappy and that she can't talk to any of her other friends but him. I read the first chapter in the book "For Better, the Science of a Good Marriage". I told her about a passage saying that the high expectations of emotional satisfaction makes marriage difficult. I acknowledged that I had not emotionally satisfied her, and that is why she has these new "friends". She is not interested in reconciling. She's actually thinking through the consequences of divorce. I suggested she not just thing of the immediate effects, but the effects 5 years from now on all of us, including the kids.

Kitkat22 · Aug 20, 2010, 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by tucsondoc

Well Kitkat 22, my wife it getting her breathing space. She went to see her "friend" tonight, the one she told that she was unhappy with her marriage. She says she is so unhappy and that she can't talk to any of her other friends but him. I read the first chapter in the book "For Better, the Science of a Good Marriage". I told her about a passage saying that the high expectations of emotional satisfaction makes marriage difficult. I acknowledged that I had not emotionally satisfied her, and that is why she has these new "friends". She is not interested in reconciling. She's actually thinking through the consequences of divorce. I suggested she not just thing of the immediate effects, but the effects 5 years from now on all of us, including the kids.

I'm really sorry. What are you going to do?

tucsondoc · Aug 20, 2010, 09:54 PM

I am mentally preparing for a divorce. I told her that the old marriage is gone, and since she was that unhappy, that's a good thing. If we got back together it would be a new marriage, if we didn't then it would be no marriage. I will wait for her to file, but if she doesn't and things drag on into the new year without her making any effort on the marriage, then I will file. These weeks of limbo seem to have taken a toll on her, as she says she is constantly unhappy, while I've tried to focus on hope. Now, hope is fading fast, and I have to look at a future without my wife. I asked her if she thinks she would be happy if we divorced, and she wasn't sure.

Kitkat22 · Aug 20, 2010, 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by tucsondoc

I am mentally preparing for a divorce. I told her that the old marriage is gone, and since she was that unhappy, that's a good thing. If we got back together it would be a new marriage, if we didn't then it would be no marriage. I will wait for her to file, but if she doesn't and things drag on into the new year without her making any effort on the marriage, then I will file. These weeks of limbo seem to have taken a toll on her, as she says she is constantly unhappy, while I've tried to focus on hope. Now, hope is fading fast, and I have to look at a future without my wife. I asked her if she thinks she would be happy if we divorced, and she wasn't sure.

I'm really sorry. It's better that you know. I would tell her if she was going to do it, there is no need to wait. It's putting undue pressure on you. She's already moved on and you know that. Get it over with and start rebuilding your life. I would insist she do it now. Good Luck and keep us posted.

tucsondoc · Aug 21, 2010, 11:46 AM

My wife is having second thoughts about divorcing. She admitted she can't make a budget and worries (rightfully so) that I won't help her any more that what is ordered by the court. She became distraught thinking about me taking half the furniture, half the kitchen items, and the piano (since I'm the one who plays). Yet, she still want to go back to New York with her "friend" to see the Yankees. Rather than threatening divorce if she goes, I told her she needs to start respecting boundaries in our marriage. I also insisted on going to marriage counseling so that we don't make the same mistakes and risk getting hurt again. She said it would be painful recounting the times I hurt or disappointed her to another person. I said a professional can help her come to terms with those episodes.

I don't want the marriage I had, with the lack of boundaries and respect. Is it fair to get a divorce if she refuses marriage counseling?

Kitkat22 · Aug 21, 2010, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by tucsondoc

My wife is having second thoughts about divorcing. She admitted she can't make a budget and worries (rightfully so) that I won't help her any more that what is ordered by the court. She became distraught thinking about me taking half the furniture, half the kitchen items, and the piano (since I'm the one who plays). Yet, she still want to go back to New York with her "friend" to see the Yankees. Rather than threatening divorce if she goes, I told her she needs to start respecting boundaries in our marriage. I also insisted on going to marriage counseling so that we don't make the same mistakes and risk getting hurt again. She said it would be painful recounting the times I hurt or disappointed her to another person. I said a professional can help her come to terms with those episodes.

I don't want the marriage I had, with the lack of boundaries and respect. Is it fair to get a divorce if she refuses marriage counseling?

If she only wants you around so she can keep the furniture and the piano that's no reason to stay. If she refuses help or counseling.. you need to sever the ties and move on. By the tone of your response, I think you've already accepted it's over. Stick to your plans.

vmom1 · Aug 21, 2010, 01:12 PM

If she is reading books about the science of a good marriage, I would think that is a good sign. Can you offer to read it with her, meeting to discuss each chapter, what it meant to you, how it can help your marriage. I can tell you when my husband and I were going through this I stopped reading all of my relationship books because I had no hope and a lot of anger. I am now reading the "5 love languages" hoping to learn to better communicate with my husband, who has many of the same complaints as you: respect, appreciation...
Can you ask her to try counseling for 3 months? Then assess whether it helps, you can make changes, small ones to improve things?
It sounds like she is appreciating how you support her, and that is what you wanted. She sees now what she would lose without you, even if it is the house and furniture, lifestyle... isn't that what you have been claiming as your proof of love all this time? Now that she is afraid to lose it, you are offended that that is what she sees she gets from you? (sorry, some bitterness spilling over from my situation)
At least you see the need for counseling, are willing to make changes - I don't have that here... But can I say, you waffle each week from I love her I am willing to stick this out.. to.. if she doesn't _____ should I file for divorce.. Not the patience and consistency the blog has been talking about...

talaniman · Aug 21, 2010, 01:38 PM

She may be afraid, but marriage counseling can't hurt. That's a major concession if she goes, so make an appointment, and go from there. This is where the empathy, and PATIENCE comes in. Forget divorce for now an keep an open mind.

Fair warning, many hidden intense emotions may surface on both sides. Empathy, and PATIENCE Say it ten times to yourself, 4 times a day, until this is resolved!!

tucsondoc · Aug 21, 2010, 03:53 PM

I'm not in a hurry to end our marriage. It's just that I'm realizing that it won't get better unless she gets help. She has cried so much and has blamed me for so long that I'm not worried about what will come out in therapy. At some point I will have had enough and move on with my life. I'm not there right now though.