[smoothy]

Still, the trade attacks are not an Islamic symbol as a whole. The Taliban is like a fudamentalist cult; it's not like any other Islamic sect. I guess you would have personally know a Muslim to know that.
It's like if The People's Temple blew up a building and a Catholic Church was built in place of it. I mean know one would have a problem with that.

The semantics doesn't matter to anyone... the fact is, THEY represented themselves as Muslims, THEY killed a over 3,000 people most of whom were not muslim. A new mosque anywhere near the Trade centers IS and will be viewed as a major Disrespect to all Americans by Muslims yet again. THere is no possible excuse for it that will be graciously accepted by MOST Americans... You want to fan the flames of hatered of Islam by Americans... by all means build it... thats exactly what you are going to get from that insult to Americans... it IS a recurring Symbol of the 9/11 attacks and its not even built yet... you think Islam is going to accomplish anything positive by plopping a victory symbol right next to a site where thousands of Americans and more than a few forigners were killed by Muslims.


And the fact remains however much you may dislike it... just because they didn't have 100% support... doesn't get them off the hook, there is never 100% support for any action ever taken that involves a large enough group... and historically that was NEVER a valid excuse...

Not all Nazi's committed Genocide or even liked Hitler... Not all Japanese supported or believed the Emporer, and so on throughout history.

And sorry but how ISLAM treats people of other faith world wide proves its not just a select few... but is common. Certainly not everyone is... but only a sucker or a fool blindly ignores reality... or History.

And after all, I have the right to determine what offends me... and a Mosque anywhere NEAR ground zero is offensive.

But you know what... unlike many of your Muslim brothers... we haven't decided to kill every Muslim involved.

But time and time again... let someone make a cartoon about Mohammed and the killing starts...

Not saying YOU supported them... in fact I'm willing to accept your statement you weren't, at face value. What I won't accept is apologies for the intent of the people insisting on building that Mosque and their motives behind it.

[Synnen]

Smoothy--I'm going to start calling Catholic churches "terrorist memorials", in your honor.

So when almighty God has led you to the most reverend man our brother Bishop Augustine, tell him what I have long gone over in my mind concerning the matter of the English: that is, that the shrines of idols amongst that people should be destroyed as little as possible, but that the idols themselves that are inside them should be destroyed. Let blessed water be made and sprinkled in these shrines, let altars be constructed and relics placed there: since if the shrines are well built it is necessary that they should be converted from the worship of demons to the service of the true God, so that as long as that people do not see their very shrines being destroyed they may put out error from their hearts and in knowledge and adoration of the true God they may gather at their accustomed places more readily. Pope Gregory I

I realize that Wikipedia isn't the best source in the world, but it DOES give a good list in this case:

Christianised sites - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Don't talk to me about how they're building a "terrorist memorial". Christians stole pagan holidays, pagan holy sites and burned sacred groves and followers of pagan religions.

And by YOUR token---ALL Christians are responsible for these massacres and thefts and their churches (many built 1500 years ago) should all be pulled down because they are nothing but a memorial to the terror that they instigated in the people they conquered in the name of religion.

And funny--I don't feel one bit conquered by Islam. Maybe because I'm not living up to the fundamentalist's ideas of a hating, arrogant American.

[paraclete]

So one mosque that's already there is more than enough, apparently.

You just don't get it, for the Muslim there must be a mosque nearby so they can go and pray, In a muslim country you will find a mosque in service stations, etc. they don't think about it as the Christian might, so they would expect to have them all over. We Christians think about our buildings as large structures just as we think about our churches as large organisations, but that is rarer among muslims

[Wondergirl]

you just don't get it, for the Muslim there must be a mosque nearby so they can go and pray

I don't get what?

All they need is a space in which to pray. My living room can be a mosque. It can also be a church. A public school classroom can be a place to pray too.

[XOXOlove]

The semantics doesn't matter to anyone...the fact is, THEY represented themselves as Muslims, THEY killed a over 3,000 people most of whom were not muslim. A new mosque anywhere near the Trade centers IS and will be viewed as a major Disrespect to all Americans by Muslims yet again. THere is no possible excuse for it that will be graciously accepted by MOST Americans....You want to fan hte flames of hatered of Islam by Americans...by all means build it...thats exactly what you are going to get from that insult to Americans...it IS a recuring Symbol of the 9/11 attacks and its not even built yet...you think Islam is going to accomplish anything positive by plopping a victory symbol right next to a site where thousands of Americans and more than a few forigners were killed by Muslims.


And the fact remains however much you may dislike it....just because they didn't have 100% support...doesn't get them off the hook, there is never 100% support for any action ever taken that involves a large enough group...and historically that was NEVER a valid excuse....

Not all Nazi's committed Genocide or even liked Hitler...Not all Japanese supported or believed the Emporer, and so on throughout history.

And sorry but how ISLAM treats people of other faith world wide proves its not just a select few...but is common. Certainly not everyone is...but only a sucker or a fool blindly ignores reality...or History.

And after all, I have the right to determine what offends me...and a Mosque anywhere NEAR ground zero is offensive.

But you know what....unlike many of your Muslim brothers...we haven't decided to kill every Muslim involved.

But time and time again....let someone make a cartoon about Mohammed and the killing starts...

Not saying YOU supported them...in fact I'm willing to accept your statement you weren't, at face value. What I won't accept is appologies for the intent of the people insisting on building that Mosque and their motives behind it.

First off, I have no clue what you mean by my "Muslim brothers"...
Also, you are again making generalizations of Islam as a whole. I agree with you that it "is common" for Muslims to treat other religions unfairly-but only in some countries; I don't think it is common in America for Muslims to hate Americans and if it was, I'm sure there would be a lot more attacks than there were. Most of the Muslims that come here are here for a better life and are not fundamentalists. I'm sure there are some, but I honestly don't think terrorists or anyone who hated America would want to come build a mosque here and raise American children.

I still can't see why people who came here for a better life or are American can't build a place of worship. Those people had nothing to do with 9/11. Just because the terrorists were Muslim and a completely different group of Muslims want to build a mosque there doesn't rule the idea as a disgrace; now it would be if the actual Taliban wanted to build a mosque there. I think that a lot of people are completely unaware of the drastic differences between Muslim sects and groups. I find the type of Muslim members of the Taliban to be the complete opposite, practically a different religion from other sects.

I'm sure building a mosque by ground zero will build hatred as you said, but I'm sure overtime, people will come to realize that it's no different from any other mosque and the whole issue is really pettily. Honestly, if it were up to me, I would never propose the idea of building a mosque there only because I already know that there are a lot of close-minded people out there, but if other people wanted it, I wouldn't turn against it or see it as a disgrace.

[tomder55]

Answer already given by someone else

[excon]

Hello again,

We invented religious liberty. That's WHY people come here. That's what makes this country great. Take away our freedoms, and Osama Bin Laden wins.

excon

[smoothy]

Smoothy--I'm going to start calling Catholic churches "terrorist memorials", in your honor.

So when almighty God has led you to the most reverend man our brother Bishop Augustine, tell him what I have long gone over in my mind concerning the matter of the English: that is, that the shrines of idols amongst that people should be destroyed as little as possible, but that the idols themselves that are inside them should be destroyed. Let blessed water be made and sprinkled in these shrines, let altars be constructed and relics placed there: since if the shrines are well built it is necessary that they should be converted from the worship of demons to the service of the true God, so that as long as that people do not see their very shrines being destroyed they may put out error from their hearts and in knowledge and adoration of the true God they may gather at their accustomed places more readily. Pope Gregory I

I realize that Wikipedia isn't the best source in the world, but it DOES give a good list in this case:

Christianised sites - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Don't talk to me about how they're building a "terrorist memorial". Christians stole pagan holidays, pagan holy sites and burned sacred groves and followers of pagan religions.

And by YOUR token---ALL Christians are responsible for these massacres and thefts and their churches (many built 1500 years ago) should all be pulled down because they are nothing but a memorial to the terror that they instigated in the people they conquered in the name of religion.

And funny--I don't feel one bit conquered by Islam. Maybe because I'm not living up to the fundamentalist's ideas of a hating, arrogant American.

So.. exactly WHEN was the last Catholic led Crusade? Islam is STILL doing exactly that, TODAY. Show me a Muslim majority nation anywhere in the world where they don't persecute non-muslims NOW? And in any case... the Crusades were in response to Islamic aggression of taking historically Christian lands by force and forcing its people to convert or die, Christianity was not the aggressor there.

No explanation or justification for the Spanish Inquisition however.

Remember Catholicism is not my religion. I'm Protestant and we don't answer to the Pope. The Pope isn't the leader of Christianity and Catholics don't hold the monopoly either. Christianity is fairly diverse.

And IF Islam is such a peaceful Religion and the so called Radicals don't represent most muslims... then exactly WHY don't they take care of them the same with the same vigor as they go after anyone who draws a cartoon of Mohammed or writes a book exposing them for who they really are like Salimon Rushdi?

If the Catholic Church ordered hits on any artist that did they same you would never hear the end of it. When Islam does it... the excuses start... its only individuals... its not all muslims even when Muslims brutally kill Christian missionaries with great regularity...

Its about damn time Islam is held accountible.

We can't celebrat Lee Jackson day in the south because Blacks are offended. But they and you are demanding we not only accept a Muslim Built Terrorist Memorial literally two blocks from ground Zero... and We don't have the right to object or be seriously offended.


Strange, but please show me exactly where in the Bill of rights that Muslims have greater rights than white conservative Christians do?

I for one am damn sick and tired of the left argueing Latinos have a RIGHT to violate our borders and ignore immigration law, I am sicjk and tired of being hearing excusing from blacks about slavery that not a single on of them or their parents, grandparents or even great grandparents were subject to... and not one solitart ancestor of mine was involved in either, I am sick and tired of having the CHristmas Holiday being destroyed by people that insist on NOT hearing about any Christian fascit of the holiday... and I am damn sick and tired about Muslims telling me what I can and can't be offended by.

You bring up the actions of a few priests... well, fine they aren't above being prosecurted... but while the Catholic church was forced to pay millions to those victims... Islam was never held to that same standard... exactly HOW MUCH money was paid by Muslims to the Victims families of 9/11 and to those who were not killed just because things didn't collapse as fast as they hoped.


I'll tell you, not one dollar was paid by muslims... nothing, nada, zip, niente. And now they need a New Memorial to Mohammed Attah... why? There is an existing Mosque in manhattan two blocks away, they can't argue there are NO mosques in that area... because there are. They can not justify a new one THERE...

And you know what... as far as you or anyone else can prove... its being Funded by Osama Bin Laden, and Iran. They haven't released where this money is coming from to anyone outside of their tiny circle.

After all... this whole topic is about Islam led disrespect of the United States and its citizens.

[smearcase]

Religious liberty works both ways-Citizens are protected from the influence of religion on their liberty, like having to endure descecration of a monument that many Americans may choose to visit. This particular religion has a goal of destroying American freedom and has done a pretty good job so far. The line is drawn. This is a Joe Biden issue (a bfd!).

[excon]

This particular religion has a goal of destroying American freedom and has done a pretty good job so far.

Hello again, smear:

Let me see... You are AGAINST this American citizen exercising his Constitutional rights. He should be PREVENTED from building a mosque. Your JUSTIFICATION for DENYING him this freedom, is that his religion will destroy our freedoms.

Do I have that right?

excon

[Wondergirl]

We don't have the right to object or be seriously offended.

You and some others seem to be doing just fine exercising your right to express your displeasure and be offended.

Strange, but please show me exactly where in the Bill of rights that Muslims have greater rights than white conservative Christians do?

Both groups have the same rights. Where do you see greater ones exercised by Muslims? Why do you wish to limit their rights? Because you don't LIKE them?

Protestant missionaries all over the world are telling people of other faiths and religions and with no religion that their beliefs/thinking is wrong and that they must change. If they don't change, they are harangued and vilified and ostracized.

[smoothy]

You and some others seem to be doing just fine exercising your right to express your displeasure and be offended.

Both groups have the same rights. Where do you see greater ones exercised by Muslims? Why do you wish to limit their rights? because you don't LIKE them?

Protestant missionaries all over the world are telling people of other faiths and religions and with no religion that their beliefs/thinking is wrong and that they must change. If they don't change, they are harangued and vilified and ostracized.

You ARE giving greater rights to Muslims than to the rest.

Southerners are not allowed to fly anything resembling a Confederate Flag... because some people are offended. Mostly northern liberals and some blacks.

Well you know what MOST Americans are offended that Muslims insist on building a Memorial to Mohammed Attah two blocks from where he along with others killed over 3000 americans. And its not Americans paying to build it... Its Iran, Osama Bin Laden and Saudi Arabia. THEY have no rights.

You know what... why do you and a minority of Terrorist Memorial Defenders think Muslims have a special right that Americans seem to lack in theior own land.

And NO cHRISTIAN WOULD MAKE A WISECRACK LIKE THAT... exactly what in the hell do you think Muslims do? The differences is they kill you if you don't convert. Real friendly and nice religion that is... convert or die. Yeah, Islam the peaceful religion.

[smoothy]

You know, we hear so much propaganda from Muslims about how peaceful their religion is...

So, why don't they go after and kill the extremeists among them with the gusto they seem to go after women for "Honor" killings
Or stoning a soman to death for talking with a man that not her husband or family...

How many Muslim Extremeists are stoned to death... I'd like to see links to stories.

How many Imamas that preach hatred are stonesd to death?

Or is it just that I'm correct... in that these extremist and Hatred preaching Imams are really revered as heroes? As so many thousands proved on TV in numerous muslim nations ON CAMERA on and after 9/11 in open CELIBRATION of the attacks..

I don't doubt that SOME muslims did not agree, I personally know some... I want to know that if THEY are in the majority, why have they not taken action to eliminate them like they seem top enjoy doing to women in such brutal ways under SHARIA law... which is Islamic Law.

Islam is not simply a religion... its a complete system of domination and subjegation of everyone in its path. Its far more than simply a religon.

Religons don't lay down LAWS, Religons don't tell you how to do business. Religions don't force you to live your life as they dictate or be mutilated or killed in the name of that religion. Islam does however. Yopu don't have civil rights under Islam... women in fact are not mens equals under Islam. THousands of women are mutilated and killed every year in the name of Islam, in most cases without proof and just the word of a paranoid and jealous husband.

And many Muslims intend to force that upon us slowly, like a frog in a pan of cool water slowly brought to a boil, before it relizes the danger its in, its too late.

[NeedKarma]

Southerners are not allowed to fly anything resembling a Confederate Flag... because some people are offended. Mostly northern liberals and some blacks.

Confederate Flag Controversy

The Confederate battle flag, called the "Southern Cross" or the cross of St. Andrew, has been described variously as a proud emblem of Southern heritage and as a shameful reminder of slavery and segregation. In the past, several Southern states flew the Confederate battle flag along with the U.S. and state flags over their statehouses. Others incorporated the controversial symbol into the design of their state flags. The Confederate battle flag has also been appropriated by the Ku Klux Klan and other racist hate groups. According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, more than 500 extremist groups use the Southern Cross as one of their symbols.

[Wondergirl]

You ARE giving greater rights to Muslims than to the rest.

How?

Confederate flag

What does this flag mean to you, smoothy?

"The Confederate battle flag, called the "Southern Cross" or the cross of St. Andrew, has been described variously as a proud emblem of Southern heritage and as a shameful reminder of slavery and segregation. In the past, several Southern states flew the Confederate battle flag along with the U.S. and state flags over their statehouses. Others incorporated the controversial symbol into the design of their state flags. The Confederate battle flag has also been appropriated by the Ku Klux Klan and other racist hate groups. According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, more than 500 extremist groups use the Southern Cross as one of their symbols." (infoplease.com)

"A Flag should be a symbol that everyone looks upon with the same stirring feelings of shared beliefs and shared commitment.

The American Flag which represents the phrase "All Men are Created equal" does that.

But, clearly, not all Americans can look upon the Confederate Flag with the same shared feelings.

To fly that flag on US Government property, is to endorse the government it stood for--a political counter-revolution to democracy--which sought to build a nation on the cornerstone of slavery." (ontheissues.org)

You can fly a Confederate flag on your own private property.

[smoothy]

Confederate Flag Controversy

So what? Muslims have the right according to the left to offend the majority of americans with the Terrorist Memorial... but heaven forbid a few people be offended by the confederate flag which IS a sybol that is heald in high regard by southerners.

Incidentally... I'm a Yankee by birth... but I understand how southerners view the Confederate flag (I've lived down here long enough to "Get it")... not the BS created by Northerners who can't get over the fact they won the Civil war and continue to degrade the southerners as somehow Inferiour to the great Liberal intellect that is about as fictitious as Superman.

[smoothy]

How?


What does this flag mean to you, smoothy?

"The Confederate battle flag, called the "Southern Cross" or the cross of St. Andrew, has been described variously as a proud emblem of Southern heritage and as a shameful reminder of slavery and segregation. In the past, several Southern states flew the Confederate battle flag along with the U.S. and state flags over their statehouses. Others incorporated the controversial symbol into the design of their state flags. The Confederate battle flag has also been appropriated by the Ku Klux Klan and other racist hate groups. According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, more than 500 extremist groups use the Southern Cross as one of their symbols." (infoplease.com)

"A Flag should be a symbol that everyone looks upon with the same stirring feelings of shared beliefs and shared commitment.

The American Flag which represents the phrase "All Men are Created equal" does that.

But, clearly, not all Americans can look upon the Confederate Flag with the same shared feelings.

To fly that flag on US Government property, is to endorse the government it stood for--a political counter-revolution to democracy--which sought to build a nation on the cornerstone of slavery." (ontheissues.org)

You can fly a Confederate flag on your own private property.

You spew the same liberal talking points that puts down anything they don't personally understand or like... YOU don't live in the south, so YOU don't get it. Funny how southerners are Sterotyped as dumb and slow... "we gotta take their flags from then or they may cecede again". What a crock.

I have to tell you that you find more good old fashioned common sense in one southern town than you find in entire regions elsewhere in the country.

And this is coming from a transplanted Yankee.


You ask "HOW?" You refuse to read threads do you.

Its NOT being Paid for by Americans... Its being Financed by "secret" overseas investors... which can only mean Iran, Saudi Arabia, Osama Bin Laden, and possibly drug money from the Taliban.

But THEY DON'T have the "Right" to build that memorial... and the left refuses to point out exactly WHERE in the Bill of Rights that anyone has the RIGHT to build anything, anyplace without opposition or being subject to anything.

And nobody answered what is the Difference between a right and a privilege. Since the left constantly talks about "RIGHTS" where no legal rights exist.

And the left loves to parse words... so... I want them to define what legally constitutes a RIGHT, vs a privilege.

[tomder55]

I don't think Smoothy with his William T Sherman avitar can be accused of being too sympathetic to the southern cause.

[Wondergirl]

YOU don't live in the south, so YOU don't get it.

No, I was just born and raised there (in the hills with the hillbillies, spitting out watermelon seeds and eating fried chicken with flour weevils on it). I'm a Tar Heel.

Funny how southerners are Sterotyped as dumb and slow...

This Tar Heel happens to be a member of Mensa. Do you know what that is? She spells words correctly too.

Its NOT being Paid for by Americans... Its being Financed by "secret" overseas investors

You do not know that. That has not been confirmed in any way, shape, or form.

But THEY have the "Right" to build that memorial... and the left refuses to point out exactly WHERE in the Bill of Rights that anyone has the RIGHT to build anything, anyplace without opposition or being subject to anything.

You're opposing it. Looks like you have rights.

The neo-Nazis have paraded in the Chicago heavily-Jewish suburb of Skokie. Those neo-Nazis have rights. The Jews protested but didn't stop them.

President Bush, less than a week after 9/11, visited the Washington mosque and declared that Islam is a religion of peace.

How many innocent Muslims have we killed in Iraq and Afghanistan? Oh, yes. We are bring freedom and democracy to them, so it's okay then.

There is a mosque less than 80 feet from where the plane flew into the Pentagon.

nobody answered what is the Difference between a right and a privilege.

Excon did, pages ago.

[NeedKarma]

I'm a Yankee by birth

So what?