[Wondergirl]

i want to do good works now because of the HOLY SPIRIT who lives in me. I don't do them for my salvation.

Yup. Good works are our thank you to God for salvation. God loves us and gave us a free gift of eternal life; now we say "thank you" by loving Him in return and demonstrating His love to others.

Grandma gives me a new bike just because she loves me. I say thank you to her and then, without her asking me to do it, I sweep her front porch and set the table for lunch and pull weeds in her garden because I am so happy. I do Grandpa's and Grandma's laundry, fold it after it's dry, and put it away in the right places. When I go home later, I am cheerful and loving, helping Mom and Dad however I can.

[Wondergirl]

That he had all the physical needs of a man, he felt hunger, thirst, pain, happiness, sadness. It is true he had a free will..but his free will was the exact same as God the Father. Perhaps it isn't fruitful to debate this...but I'm really surprised that not one person has agreed with me.

Was Jesus' free will the same kind as what God gave Adam?

[classyT]

WG,

Adam didn't understand all things.. he had no knowledge of good and evil. Jesus fully understood. So while Jeus did have a free will... it was with full knowledge of everything.

The promise of the Lord Jesus was given in Genesis 3 :15 when God is speaking to satan..

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

It was already a done deal.. Jesus couldn't sin... wouldn't sin and wasn't capable of it. God's word is TRUTH... he isn't a man that he should lie.. so why promise this if there was a possiblily?

[Wondergirl]

It was already a done deal..Jesus couldn't sin...wouldn't sin and wasn't capable of it. God's word is TRUTH...he isn't a man that he should lie..so why promise this if there was a possiblily?

Then our faith is in vain, and Jesus' sacrifice was for naught. If what you say is true, He is not the "New Adam" who understands us, He did not really suffer during the beatings and humiliation by the soldiers, and He did not suffer in the Garden nor on the cross. All is a sham.

[classyT]

Yes he did... he suffered bled and died. He is called the second Adam. Why is our faith in vain?

All I'm saying is that God had the solution to the fall of man in Genesis... and he did suffer and die for us and he crushed the head of satan in the process.

Not sure why you think it is a sham?

[TUT317]

That he had all the physical needs of a man, he felt hunger, thirst, pain, happiness, sadness. It is true he had a free will..but his free will was the exact same as God the Father. Perhaps it isn't fruitful to debate this...but I'm really surprised that not one person has agreed with me.

Hi ClassyT,

I think it is fruitful because these types of statements are central to your original question. As Boogers pointed out the idea that Jesus and God having the same free will suffers from an Euthypro problem.

I am a bit pushed for time at the moment but I could outline the problem later on if you like.

Regards

Tut

[Wondergirl]

Yes he did...he suffered bled and died.

But only in a robotic way, and not really real blood or pain, right? 'Cause after all, you said He wouldn't have succumbed to temptation. He wasn't really human and couldn't be tempted which means He didn't really suffer and die like a human. Not really. Right? It was just a fakey God thing, not a human thing. Right?

[dwashbur]

But only in a robotic way, and not really real blood or pain, right? 'Cause after all, you said He wouldn't have succumbed to temptation. He wasn't really human and couldn't be tempted which means He didn't really suffer and die like a human. Not really. Right? It was just a fakey God thing, not a human thing. Right?

I don't see how this follows. Not being tempted to sin really doesn't have anything to do with mortality or the capacity to suffer.

[JoeT777]

That isn't what the bible records. Christ FINISHED the work at calvary....

Christ finished his ministry in His Passion, so doing beginning His Kingdom on earth.

Also I would like to add that in the bible when Paul used the word HOPE it is a sure thing...not like when we use the word hope. He says so himself. Check out Romans 5:5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
HOPE DOESN"T disappoint..it is a SURE thing

Being justified therefore by faith, let us have peace with God, through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access through faith into this grace, wherein we stand, and glory in the hope of the glory of the sons of God. And not only so; but we glory also in tribulations, knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience trial; and trial hope; And hope confoundeth not: because the charity of God is poured forth in our hearts, by the Holy Ghost, who is given to us.

A hope that realizes its object is no longer hope. The virtue of hope that scripture speaks of is a yearning to obtain from God an infinite good, particularly consisting of eternal life and a gratification only God satisfies. In hope we are no longer hesitant in our faith satisfying the intellect and will to seek Him. (Cf. Augustine, Holy Trinity, 14, 3, 6)

These verses in Romans don’t speak of a guaranteed salvation; ‘faith alone’ isn’t salvific. Rather it’s a dead faith no longer in need of God finding instead a satisfaction in self. These verses speak to that assurance of hope that groans “within ourselves, waiting for the adoption of the sons of God, the redemption of our body.” We find God’s charity that he gave us Christ, whose death didn’t end sin, doesn’t warranty salvation, but gives us hope even in tribulation. This hope translates into our perseverance in hope, with fear and trembling to work out our salvation. (Cf. Phil. 2:12).

Also check out Colossians 1:27 Because Christ is in you, the hope of glory

Also : In Ephesians we are told when we BELIEVED the gospel of our salvation we were sealed with the Holy Spirit. I didn't have to click my heels..i simply believed and I was born again, sealed with the Holy Spirit, my name written in the lambs book of life where no man could pluck me out of HIs hand and I was immediately seated in heavenly places. (That is my position spiritually) I didn't say it.....the Bible did.

God’s grace, gives us faith which in its turn produces hope which in its turn produces charity. However, Charity is the greatest of these, because it merits grace which in turn strengthens our faith working an increase in our hope and again an increase in charity.

Now if it wasn't true that I was sealed with the Holy Spirit after I believed..why did Paul say such a thing? AND.....my question for you is...what sin could I commit where the Holy Spirit would leave me after I believed? The Bible says we can quench the Spirit and we can grieve the Spirit..but I find nothing to say the HOLY SPIRIT will ever leave. I'm sealed. I'm safe, I'm secure..not because I deserve it...but because the Lord Jesus redeemed me and I rest completely in HIM by faith plus NOTHING. For HE is truly enough. This is what makes Christianity different from every other religion..i don't have to do ANYTHNG other than believe. Then because I am sealed with the HOLY SPIRIT..i want to do good works now because of the HOLY SPIRIT who lives in me. I don't do them for my salvation.

It’s not true that hope is eternal; if it is then we are doomed. Part of hope is that we realize our faith in Christ, becoming adopted ‘sons of God’; “hope that is seen, is not hope”. Conversely, a hope that is eternal is never realized.

Furthermore, if by eternal hope you mean to say that we realize our hope in this world then we are also doomed. Receiving our salvation in this world would be to say that our hope is realized in this world. Look around your mad world; is this your ‘salvation’? To what end do we persevere to the end, to be saved back into this world? (Cf Matt 10:22 and Matt 24:13).

There is nowhere in the bible that says I have to take communion to be saved. The Lord Jesus asked us to do it in remembrance of HIM and His death. I WANT to do it....I love to do it..but it has nothing to do with my salvation.

It’s in this way the bible says hope saves: “And not only it, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption of the sons of God [i.e. HOPE FOR], the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope.” (Romans 8:23-24). It’s in our hope that we preserver.

JoeT

[classyT]

But only in a robotic way, and not really real blood or pain, right? 'Cause after all, you said He wouldn't have succumbed to temptation. He wasn't really human and couldn't be tempted which means He didn't really suffer and die like a human. Not really. Right? It was just a fakey God thing, not a human thing. Right?

No... it was real and it was something no one has ever gone through nor will go through. Not only was it painful beyond words, but he was ridiculed, spit on, mocked.. and then God placed all the sin of the world upon HIM, who knew no sin. The Lord was sweating great drops of blood in the garden.. it didn't get too much more REAL than that, talk about STRESS. He was fully human obviously and not at all robotic. My point WG is that he couldn't, wouldn't, and not capable of sin. Jesus, even in his humanity, came for one purpose; to do the will of his Father. The promise of Jesus was given in Genesis 3:15. How could he have failed? How could he have any other will? God is not a man that he should lie.

[classyT]

Hi ClassyT,

I think it is fruitful because these types of statements are central to your original question. As Boogers pointed out the idea that Jesus and God having the same free will suffers from an Euthypro problem.

I am a bit pushed for time at the moment but I could outline the problem later on if you like.

Regards

Tut

Feel free to explain. But I do believe that the Lord Jesus is God and I do believe his free will was to do the will of his Father.

Tess

[Wondergirl]

My point WG is that he couldn't, wouldn't, and not capable of sin. Jesus, even in his humanity, came for one purpose; to do the will of his Father. The promise of Jesus was given in Genesis 3:15. How could he have failed? How could he have any other will? God is not a man that he should lie.

Yes, Jesus could have failed. Adam failed. Because he failed, we are all caught in the web of sin and will not live forever in a perfect world like he was meant to do. Jesus came for one purpose: to be the perfect creature, the perfect Adam, that we cannot be. Jesus replayed the tape just like Superman did in the movie by the same name when he rewrote history. The Genesis verse doesn't say Jesus will be successful; it simply says God will try again someday with a "new Adam." And He did. And that new Adam was able to withstand temptation this time and override His human desires (unlike the old Adam).

[classyT]

Christ finished his ministry in His Passion, so doing beginning His Kingdom on earth.

Being justified therefore by faith, let us have peace with God, through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access through faith into this grace, wherein we stand, and glory in the hope of the glory of the sons of God. And not only so; but we glory also in tribulations, knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience trial; and trial hope; And hope confoundeth not: because the charity of God is poured forth in our hearts, by the Holy Ghost, who is given to us.

A hope that realizes its object is no longer hope. The virtue of hope that scripture speaks of is a yearning to obtain from God an infinite good, particularly consisting of eternal life and a gratification only God satisfies. In hope we are no longer hesitant in our faith satisfying the intellect and will to seek Him. (Cf. Augustine, Holy Trinity, 14, 3, 6)

These verses in Romans don’t speak of a guaranteed salvation; ‘faith alone’ isn’t salvific. Rather it’s a dead faith no longer in need of God finding instead a satisfaction in self. These verses speak to that assurance of hope that groans “within ourselves, waiting for the adoption of the sons of God, the redemption of our body.” We find God’s charity that he gave us Christ, whose death didn’t end sin, doesn’t warranty salvation, but gives us hope even in tribulation. This hope translates into our perseverance in hope, with fear and trembling to work out our salvation. (Cf. Phil. 2:12).



God’s grace, gives us faith which in its turn produces hope which in its turn produces charity. However, Charity is the greatest of these, because it merits grace which in turn strengthens our faith working an increase in our hope and again an increase in charity.



It’s not true that hope is eternal; if it is then we are doomed. Part of hope is that we realize our faith in Christ, becoming adopted ‘sons of God’; “hope that is seen, is not hope”. Conversely, a hope that is eternal is never realized.

Furthermore, if by eternal hope you mean to say that we realize our hope in this world then we are also doomed. Receiving our salvation in this world would be to say that our hope is realized in this world. Look around your mad world; is this your ‘salvation’? To what end do we persevere to the end, to be saved back into this world? (Cf Matt 10:22 and Matt 24:13).



It’s in this way the bible says hope saves: “And not only it, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption of the sons of God [i.e. HOPE FOR], the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope.” (Romans 8:23-24). It’s in our hope that we preserver.

JoeT

GrumpyJoeT,

Wow... we just totally don't agree.

I will say it again... Hebrews 12:2 Jesus christ is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of my faith. ( I didn't say it... the Bible did)

When Paul speaks of Hope.. he lays it out plain as can be. I am not hoping I am saved... I KNOW I aml. Because my HOPE is in the Lord Jesus Christ. And we know this kind of HOPE doesn't disappoint. You can try to get around it but that is what the Bible says.

I was sealed with the Holy spirit the moment I believed... ( I guess sealed doesn't really mean sealed.) I was seated in heavenly places ( guess seated doesn't really mean seated) The Lord Jesus himself has said he will never leave me or forsake me... ( I guess never doesn't mean never).

I believe the bible. I believe : if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and shall believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead THOU SHALT BE SAVED. Romans 10:9 ( don't tell me.. let me guess... it doesn't mean I'm saved if I do exactly that)

Hey, I believe the Bible. I don't add to it and I don't twist it. I put it into context and I believe it... it is called faith. For by grace are you saved through faith and THAT not of yourself, it is a gift from God lest any man should boast. Eph.

Heck,according to that verse, I can't even take credit for having the FAITH to get saved.



Honesty I have no idea what you are talking about when you stated this:


"Furthermore, if by eternal hope you mean to say that we realize our hope in this world then we are also doomed. Receiving our salvation in this world would be to say that our hope is realized in this world. Look around your mad world; is this your ‘salvation’? To what end do we persevere to the end, to be saved back into this world?"

HUH? I'm saved from spending my eternity in a devils hell separated from God forever and ever. I'm saved and my name was written in the Lambs book of life the day I received Christ as my Lord and savior. I'm NOT saved from living in this world. But I am called to be salt and light to it. I am told( in scripture) to be in the world but not OF the world. I'm saved so that I can live and tell others the good news of Jesus Christ.

Sorry if I'm rambling... gotta run. Going to go watch some fireworks.

[TUT317]

Feel free to explain. But I do believe that the Lord Jesus is God and I do believe his free will was to do the will of his Father.

Tess

Hi Tess,

I don't think I will.

You are obviously passionate about this. I don't want to try and undermine your beliefs.

Best wishes

Tut.

[dwashbur]

Hi Tess,

I don't think I will.

You are obviously passionate about this. I don't want to try and undermine your beliefs.

Best wishes

Tut.

Sounds like it's about time for the good ol' "agree to disagree" thing?

[classyT]

Yes, Jesus could have failed. Adam failed. Because he failed, we are all caught in the web of sin and will not live forever in a perfect world like he was meant to do. Jesus came for one purpose: to be the perfect creature, the perfect Adam, that we cannot be. Jesus replayed the tape just like Superman did in the movie by the same name when he rewrote history. The Genesis verse doesn't say Jesus will be successful; it simply says God will try again someday with a "new Adam." And He did. And that new Adam was able to withstand temptation this time and override His human desires (unlike the old Adam).

WG,
Jesus was promised in Genesis 3:15 and it DID say he would be successful... Satan bruised the Lord's heal... but the LORD crushed Satan's head. If Jesus could fail, God wouldn't have made such a promise.
ALSO:
Adam wasn't sent to redeem mankind and then failed. Adam caused the sin problem with his failure and passed to everyone after him. The reason the Lord Jesus is called the second Adam because HE came and JUSTIFIED mankind. He makes those that call upon him... just as if they had NEVER sinned. This is the reason he is called the second Adam. Not because he overcame some temptation. One man caused sin and separation from God... Jesus came and redeemed us back to have fellowship with the Father because we are a new creature.

[dwashbur]

WG,
Jesus was promised in Genesis 3:15 and it DID say he would be successful....Satan bruised the Lord's heal...but the LORD crushed Satan's head. If Jesus could fail, God wouldn't have made such a promise.
ALSO:
Adam wasn't sent to redeem mankind and then failed. Adam caused the sin problem with his failure and passed to everyone after him. The reason the Lord Jesus is called the second Adam because HE came and JUSTIFIED mankind. He makes those that call upon him...just as if they had NEVER sinned. This is the reason he is called the second Adam. Not because he overcame some temptation. One man caused sin and seperation from God...Jesus came and redeemed us back to have fellowship with the Father because we are a new creature.

Sir Nitpick sez to both of ya:

Jesus is never called the Second Adam. He's call the Last Adam in 1 Cor 15:45.

[Wondergirl]

My RSV says "second" for the I Cor. Verse.

[Wondergirl]

WG,
Jesus was promised in Genesis 3:15 and it DID say he would be successful... Satan bruised the Lord's heal... but the LORD crushed Satan's head.

That takes us only to the crucifixion and Jesus in the grave. (Pssst, the Lord's heel, not "heal.")

Adam wasn't sent to redeem mankind and then failed.

We weren't supposed to need Jesus. Adam was created perfect, and if he'd minded his p's and q's, redemption wouldn't have been necessary.

Adam caused the sin problem with his failure and passed to everyone after him.

So? I have no quarrel with that.

The reason the Lord Jesus is called the second Adam because HE came and JUSTIFIED mankind.

No, He's called that because he did it right -- lived a perfect life. The first Adam wasn't able to manage that.

[Donna Mae II]

"Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved-you and your household."

I also know that in order to be saved we must believe in Jesus Christ, but it also says, "you and your household." Is that saying that just because I believe that my family will be saved too, even if they don't believe? No, of course not. The verses also say, "Then they (Paul and Silas) spoke the word of the Lord," to the jailer and his household. This is something else we must do, read and know the words of our Lord.
After this was done, and their wounds were washed, "then immediately he and all his family were baptized." There are other verses in God's word, that tell us to, "Repent and be baptized." Including this one in Acts, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."

We are given this promise; us, our children, our grandchildre; as long as we do the will of our Father, and in that will, He tells us to Believe, Study to show ourselves approved, Repent and be Baptized. Then we will receive the gift that is promised to us.