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 Originally Posted by inthebox
IntheBox - I see that you are the only other rational person answering on here that can truly see the issue at hand without all the flowery fluff that some other folks like to indulge in. I'm still politely waiting for someone on here to address the questions that I posed earlier. 1. What other country in the world allows/condones illegal aliens living in their country other than the USA? 2. Where are the other sanctuary cities in the world that allows/condones illegal aliens other than in the USA? I'll probably drop dead long before anyone can truthfully answer those questions. |
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Originally Posted by twinkiedooter
I'm a pretty truthful guy, and I'll answer your questions. However, I'll answer them in the context of the current situation, which you conveniently ignore. 1. No other country does that. However, no other country has placed a help wanted sign at their border, like we did. 2. There are no other sanctuary cities in the world, because most other countries enforce their borders, and don't INVITE illegal aliens in. WE, on the other hand, and for the last 50 years, have INVITED them in with the aforementioned help wanted signs. Consequently, the illegal aliens HERE, have established families that will be broken up if you had your way, IF there weren't sanctuary cities, and thank God there are. That's as truthful as I can get. I'll wait patiently for you to address the salient points I make. But, while we wait, let me ask you this. 1. How do you propose to (a) find 12 million illegal aliens, and (b) to throw them out? Now, I realize that is the knee jerk reaction to illegal aliens being here. It's just not physically nor politically possible. Given that we're NOT going to throw them out, I propose that we do, what Charles Krauthammer said we should do, and that's to secure the border, license the illegals, tax them, fine them, and put them at the end of the line for CONSIDERATION for citizenship. excon PS> If you want to know WHY I have sympathies for them, I'll tell you that too. Yes, they committed a crime. But, they did it for the most American and the most honorable of intentions. And that's to find a job, work hard, and support their family. |
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Krauthammer says to secure the border 1st as a prerequisite to the reforms he proposes. He is saying nothing that hasn't been said before by those of us accused of being xenophobic racists . He is of course correct . Unless the Feds take border security seriously then they should not criticize the States for taking rear guard action on their own. |
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Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Well, I wouldn't personally, but you seem to excuse torture, rendition, indefinite detention. Illegal spying, not going after the CIA agents, the telephone companies, the presidents and vice presidents who VIOLATED the law, ALL under the guise that they had the purest of intentions... But, that's you. Me? I wouldn't do that. excon PS> (edited) Pssst. Did you see the part above where I said FINE them. Some criminals pay FINES. It's OK with me if they do to. |
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****Bangs head on computer keyboard****** Exie - just what part of them being a criminal don't you comprehend? Geeesh. This keeps going way over your head... Yes, we've put a help wanted sign out but that was for seasonal workers - not for folks to come here and literally live all year round on our welfare dime and bring their families along to bask in our largess and money fountain as they have been doing for years. It's okay that they come here and then go home in a timely fashion. What part of this don't they understand? All of it. Anchor babies don't come here due to some help wanted sign..! Nor do the drug dealers and gang members come here due to the help wanted sign. No, they come here to exploit our cities and population and fleece us of all our money. Consider the fact that for each illegal alien in this country that holds a job (whether taxes are taken out or not from the wages paid) this means that one legal American is denied a job and a means to support his family. Recently an Albanian cargo ship was stopped in the Russian coastal waters. Onboard was approximately 25 prostitutes. At least 12 had AIDS, 5 Hep C, and the rest were riddled with a veneral disease. All these women were human sex slaves that were trafficked aboard a stolen vessel. These women will all be deported but will sit for at least 3 to 8 years before they are deported. How to solve this problem? Do like Russia did. They mailed back so many illegal aliens for years that they finally have few to none left in their country. Yes, it was costly and it worked in the end. It did drive up the price of food, gas, etc. but it did get done. Russia does not print fiat money like the USA does. Don't just "fine" the illegals. Arrest them and deport them. So what's so hard about that? As far as breaking up families - I don't think so. The legal ones who actually went through the properr immigration steps can definitely stay. But their illegal relatives must go through the same legal steps to come here legally. In Switzerland the border guards carefully watch the mountain passes for hikers coming into their territory and will radio those closest to the "hikers" and have them stopped and produce their paperwork. You'd be surprised just how many people try to sneak into Switzerland this way every year. They don't put up with illegal aliens and stop them dead in their tracks on the mountain passes. Just why can't the USA do the same on our borders with planes spotting the illegal aliens and the ground personnel stopping them? P.S. Steve, you're still cute and are a great dancer. |
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Exie said "But, they did it for the most American and the most honorable of intentions. And that's to find a job, work hard, and support their family." Exie, your above comment is pointless. If these poor people from other countries just stayed in their country and changed THEIR country and uplifted THEIR country economically then they would have no reason to come here. America is not the end all to end all as it was a hundred years ago. If you feel that way then why don't we just import all the poor peoples of say Somalia, Kenya, Haiti, South Africa, China, etc. since they can't "find a job, work hard and support their families" in their own countries. Your argument is hollow and without merit. Please explain where the honorable intentions part comes into play when an Arizona rancher is murdered on his own property by an illegal alien? |
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Originally Posted by excon
What do you mean "help wanted ?" Is that LEGAL help wanted or illegal help wanted? My father, a physician, was recruited here LEGALLY in the 1960s and became a naturalized citizen in the 1970s LEGALLY. My parents had a good life and family, but moved halfway across the world for a better life here. Help has been requested LEGALLY for jobs in IT or healthcare. Who exactly is wanting "ILLEGAL HELP?" Is it big corp? Is it the agri business? Is it the rich that want nannies to pay cheaply and off the books? 2. There are no other sanctuary cities in the world, because most other countries enforce their borders, and don't INVITE illegal aliens in. WE, on the other hand, and for the last 50 years, have INVITED them in with the aforementioned help wanted signs. Consequently, the illegal aliens HERE, have established families that will be broken up if you had your way, IF there weren't sanctuary cities, and thank God there are. That's as truthful as I can get. I'll wait patiently for you to address the salient points I make. But, while we wait, let me ask you this. 1. How do you propose to (a) find 12 million illegal aliens, and (b) to throw them out? Lets start with those illegals in prison. Why do American citizens have to pay for them. They already committed at least 2 crimes. As to the other illegal aliens, we tell them that there are current sanctuary cities willing to have them and that they should move there. Or Arizona should transport all the illegals, at the border, directly to DC, or San Francisco, or New York City, or Los Angeles. Sanctuary Cities and States Protecting Illegal Aliens in the United States - Undocumented Workers
Now, I realize that is the knee jerk reaction to illegal aliens being here. It's just not physically nor politically possible. Given that we're NOT going to throw them out, I propose that we do, what Charles Krauthammer said we should do, and that's to secure the border, license the illegals, tax them, fine them, and put them at the end of the line for CONSIDERATION for citizenship.
Excon PS> If you want to know WHY I have sympathies for them, I'll tell you that too. Yes, they committed a crime. But, they did it for the most American and the most honorable of intentions. And that's to find a job, work hard, and support their family. Most Americans would agree also, but that also means doing something now about current and future illegal immigration. G&P |
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Originally Posted by twinkiedooter
Proper, as in being BORN here. Yup, the baby is a citizen, and the parents are not. They'll BE split up. Come on, twink. Think about the PEOPLE, not the politics. But, you, like smoothy, want to focus on the few who ARE bad guys - not the many who only want to wash your dishes and burp your child while you're at work. I do, again, challenge your assertion that illegal aliens commit MORE crime than their proportionate representation in the community. excon |
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I just read this very interesting article by Frosty Wooldridge that sums up what Inthebox and I have been saying about this topic. ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS A HAPPY INVASION By Frosty Wooldridge May 6, 2010 NewsWithViews.com This week, in the Huffington Post, Bill Clinton said we need more immigrants to offset our federal deficit. Post reporter Dan Froomkin said, “Former President Bill Clinton enthusiastically weighed into the blistering national debate on immigration today with a resounding assertion that America needs more immigrants -- not fewer -- to ensure its long-term fiscal future.” "I don't think there's any alternative for us but increasing immigration," Clinton said. "I just don't see any palatable way out of this unless that's part of the strategy." I don't know what those people smoke in Washington, DC, but it causes total loss of intellectual and mental aptitude. It's beyond my rational understanding how anybody can think that adding millions of additional immigrants to this country will do anything but swamp the country. We already suffer 20 million Americans out of work and 35 million subsisting on food stamps. We're $12 trillion in debt and Clinton wants to add more immigrants. Go figure! ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS A HAPPY INVASION But it doesn't end there! In a round-house discussion on TV last week, the imminent and inane journalist Eleanor Clift, totally out of touch with reality, said of illegal immigration into America, “It's a happy invasion.” In the same moment, former presidential candidate Pat Buchanan told the round table, “There are more illegal aliens in Arizona than Americans serving in the United States Army. That's an invasion.” “It's a happy invasion!” blurted Clift. One of the other speakers exclaimed, “If we don't have English as a unifying language, we could lose our American culture.” Eleanor Clift shows exactly why this country simmers, boils, rots, seethes and disintegrates before our eyes. Such elites don't possess the brains that God gave a goose. They don't understand the boiling factors now undermining this country on multiple levels. They don't understand why more Americans than ever before own guns to protect their communities and homes. Clift and others like her don't get it! If it's a 'happy invasion', do you see anyone celebrating 9/11 with those immigrants that drove planes into the Twin Trade Towers? How about the 'happy invasion' of an immigrant by the name of Nadal Hasan who shot 42 Americans at Fort Hood, Texas and killed 13? If it's so 'happy an invasion' why do we all have to press '1' for English and '2' for Spanish? If it's a 'happy invasion' why do we suffer honor killings, beheadings, female genital mutilation, arranged marriages and a growing number of killings such as the sniper attacks by John Muhammad? Does that 'happy invasion' include four officers shot in the back of their heads last year in a town near Seattle, Washington as they drank coffee on break by Muslim Clarice Clemmons? Does that 'happy invasion' include Denver, Colorado bomber Najibullah Zazi attempting his blowing up New York subways? Or, how about that Faisal Shahzad trying to blow up Times Square this week? Is that a happy invasion? Just what does Clift mean by 'happy invasion'? How about the $100 billion drug smuggling annually by 'happy invaders'? What about the 57,000 cars stolen in Arizona annually by more of those 'happy invaders'? Did Clift know that Arizona boasts the nation's new kidnapping capitol? How happy can that be? Or, yes, MS-13 gangs now operating in 44 states to deal drugs to our kids must be a 'happy invasion'! Wow! How happy can you get Ms. Clift? Does that mean that Detroit, Michigan's 76 percent dropout rate from their high schools dominated by immigrants provides Americans there a 'happy invasion' of educational excellence? Or, that city's 50 percent illiteracy rate as reported by NBC's Brian Williams? How about 400,000 anchor babies 'happily invading' our hospitals to the tune of billions of taxpayer dollars annually? To be exact: $346 billion annually of citizens' money to pay for illegals across 15 federal agencies. Happy Ms. Clift? You and your 'happy invasion' go over like somebody poured the Gulf of Mexico oil spill onto a McDonald's Happy Meal. Americans want to throw-up when they hear such balderdash from Washington insiders like Ms. Clift. Next time you attend another round-table Washington DC discussion, Ms. Clift, give us more examples of your version of this 'happy invasion' by Muslims, Mexicans and other 'happy invaders' so we can understand your deeper meanings. Mr. Clinton: go smoke another joint, and please inhale this time! Frosty has been speaking about all the illegal aliens in this country for years and years. Nothing would please him more than if the USA would stop allowing/condoning all this criminal activity. He documents how these individuals are a DRAIN upon the USA's economy - not a HELP to our economy. |
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Originally Posted by excon
As for anchor babies - they were "granted" instant citizenship due to being born here. There is no other country in the world that does this instant citizenship if you are born there. Not one. We need to treat the anchor babies as noncitizens as their parents are not citizens. The anchor baby law must be changed. As for breaking up families - the parents CHOSE to come here and have the kid here. The kid is the victim here, not the parents. As for breaking up families - so be it. The mother and her kid can choose to go "home" and not stay here. What's so hard about that? As for your second assertion that illegal aliens commit more crime - I'll be back later to post numerous citings of such statistics which prove my statement to be correct. |
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Okey Dokey how about this quote: To give you an idea of "how much crime," as noted in Illegal Alien Crime Wave in Full Swing, in April 2005, the GAO released a report on a study of 55,322 illegal aliens incarcerated in federal, state, and local facilities during 2003. It found the following: Of the 55,322 illegal aliens studied, researchers found that they were arrested a total of 459,614 times, averaging about 8 arrests per illegal alien. They were arrested for a total of about 700,000 criminal offenses, averaging about 13 offenses per illegal alien. 49% had previously been convicted of a felony, 20% of a drug offense; 18% a violent offense, and 11%, other felony offenses. 81% of the arrests occurred after 1990 56% of those charged with a reentry offense had previously been convicted on at least 5 prior occasions. Defendants charged with unlawful reentry had the most extensive criminal histories. 90% had been previously arrested. Of those with a prior arrest, 50% had been arrested for violent or drug-related felonies. Note the last two points – they mean the perpetrators were "previously deported." Regardless, ALL those crimes would have never happened, i.e. were preventable, with serious deportation of the illegal aliens already here and proper border security to prevent both entry and re-entry. In reviewing those numbers, note that the study only sampled about 21% of the incarcerated illegal aliens. To get the full extent of the collateral damage, we need to extrapolate the average number of offenses out across all 267,000 incarcerated illegal alien criminals. Doing so results in some 1,288,619 crimes! Don't the MSM and illegal alien supporters continually tell us that illegal immigration is a "victimless crime" and that they are only here to do the work Americans don't want to do? Since each crime has a victim, 1,288,619 sounds like a lot of victimization to me. Maybe they are also referring to doing the "work" that American criminals don't want to do. Also keep in mind that the 1,288,619 crimes are only the ones committed by the hard core illegal alien criminals that were finally caught and incarcerated. The ones not caught and the new criminals crossing daily are committing more crime every day. One of the problems in identifying the involvement of illegal aliens in crime, is that NOBODY TRACKS IT as a particular demographic statistic. While the INS keeps track of all sorts of demographic data for the illegal aliens that were actually arrested and deported and puts it in the Yearbook of Immigration Statistics, the judicial system does not track it. As noted in Cop murder spotlights crisis of killer aliens - No government agency tracks crimes by illegals, not even attacks on police so nobody really knows how many illegal alien criminals there are or how many crimes they are actually committing. Many simply fall through the cracks. If we assume illegal aliens commit crime at the same rate as citizens in the general population, an assumption that may grossly underestimate their involvement as we will see later, we can estimate the number of crimes being committed by illegal aliens. To do this, we note the number of illegal aliens in the population and apply the percentage representation in the population to the total number of crimes committed. The current population of illegal aliens ranges from a generally accepted low of 12 million to a few estimates in the 25-30 million range. For the purposes of this discussion, I will use a relatively lower estimate of 15 million in a population of 300 million which is a 5% representation. It is worth noting that many official government figures use a bit lower number. If in fact accurate, a lower number of illegal aliens in the general population would actually increase their disproportionate involvement, something that is probably occurring anyway as we shall see latter. According to FBI's Uniform Crime Reports (UCR), Crime in the United States (CIUS) 2005, for the Estimated Number of Arrests and applying a straight 5% illegal alien participation component we now get: CRIMES (actual arrests) Number In USA by illegal aliens Total 14,094,186 704,709 Murder & non-negligent manslaughter 14,062 703 Forcible rape 25,528 1,276 Offenses against family & children 129,128 6,456 The last column is the estimated criminal collateral damage being inflicted by illegal aliens for 2005 as a straight proportional percentage basis of the population. Similar collateral damage would have been inflicted in 2006 and you can expect about as much in 2007. Using a simple cost-benefit analysis, is this much crime acceptable to save ten cents on a head of lettuce? You probably wouldn't think so if you were one of the 704,709 victims. Again, keep in mind, this is the collateral damage being inflicted PER YEAR with a 5% participation rate. If the number of illegal aliens is greater than 15 million the number of crimes goes up. If the participation rate is greater, the number of crimes goes up. Continued below... |
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In trying to figure out who is actually committing the crimes and whether the 5% straight participation is valid, interestingly, as noted in The Tarpit blog, Hispanics/Latinos, by far the largest component of illegal aliens, become "White, Caucasian, or Other" perpetrators in Arizona. The same thing in Colorado, Florida, New Jersey, New Mexico, and probably other states as well. Even the FBI doesn't seem to want to know as neither the nationality of the perpetrator nor a Hispanic/Latino category is even present in either their Uniform Crime Reports or Victims and Offenders Supplement. When I inquired of Justice Department as to why they didn't want to know if Hispanics or foreign nationals were committing any crime, their response was: "The Uniform Crime Reporting Program was mandated by Congress to collect and publish the crimes that are reported to police agencies for statistical purposes, not investigative purposes. The elements of race and ethnicity built into the UCR Program adhere to the guidelines established by DIRECTIVE NO 15, RACE AND ETHNIC STANDARDS FOR FEDERAL STATISTICS AND ADMINISTRATIVE REPORTING. Those guidelines are set by the Office of Management and Budget, and as federal agency in the capacity of overseer of the UCR Program, the FBI is required to abide by those guidelines. For UCR purposes there are four racial categories: White; Black; American Indian or Alaskan Native; and Asian or Pacific Islander. The term Hispanic is an indicator of ethnicity, and the UCR Program does not currently collect information on ethnicity." I also asked the Justice Department what categories the foreign national terrorists and the 2,752 Americans killed by foreign nationals on 9-11-2001 fell into but did not get a response. While the Justice Department tracks nearly every conceivable aspect of crime, evidently, Congress only wants to know what crimes "White, Black, American Indian, and Asian" Americans are committing Interestingly, however, ethnicity is very important for establishing minority status and preferences but totally unimportant for determining who is committing crimes. Crimes being committed by illegal aliens, aka foreign nationals, are not tracked. While we are on the subject of the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports (UCR), Jim Kouri notes in Crime Statistics and the Itsy Bitsy Yellow Polka Dot Bikini: "Yet the public is generally unaware that the UCR system is essentially a voluntary system; there is no federal legislation that requires States or local jurisdictions to report their crime data to the FBI. The voluntary nature of the UCR, of course, affects the accuracy and completeness of the data. Although the FBI devotes a great deal of attention to the quality of the data it publishes in CIUS, it cannot mandate agencies to provide data on time (or at all)." Thus, if anything, the FBI underreports crime. Continued below... |
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In any case, it would appear that other than what the INS reports when foreign nationals are deported, NOBODY IS TRACKING CRIMES COMMITTED ON US SOIL BY FOREIGN NATIONALS. Given the serious of the crimes and large participation by mostly Hispanic, illegal alien, a.k.a. foreign national, criminals it almost seems as if the various government agencies don't want you to know. Also, I could not find any investigative reporting by the MSM on the issue. If even a small number of those 704,709 crimes were committed against members of the media or politicians maybe we would have heard something but the silence is deafening. As noted in a September 2006 article, Cop murder spotlights crisis of killer aliens, in WND "While no government agencies specifically track crimes by illegal aliens, there have been some efforts to quantify the loss. Last December, Mac Johnson set out to investigate the number of homicides perpetrated by illegal aliens. Since the federal government would not provide any useful information, he contacted all 50 statehouses. Three months later, he had fewer than a dozen responses. Only one state, Vermont, provided any useful information. He then set out to statistically estimate the number of murders by illegal aliens based on available crime data and conservative estimates of the actual number of illegal aliens in the country – which, of course, nobody really knows. He found that between 1,806 and 2,510 people in the U.S. are murdered annually by illegal aliens. If he's right, that would represent between 11 percent and 15 percent of all murders in the U.S.": Using the mean of Mr. Johnson's range, that means there are 2,158 murders committed annually by illegal aliens – crimes that never would have happened if they weren't here. This is part of the collateral damage of tolerating illegal immigration. Note that at 2,158 murders that would be 15.3% of all the murders reported by the FBI, which would be about three times the representation of illegal aliens in the general population. Whether illegal aliens are committing three times as many of the other crimes as well is unknown because NOBODY IS TRACKING IT. Regardless, keep that "three times" in mind because it will come up again. At this point it is worth noting that Representative King states in Biting the Hand That Feeds You , referenced in the INTRODUCTION and often quoted all over the internet, that illegal aliens are responsible for 4,380 murders. I believe Congressman King based his numbers on two GAO reports (d05337r and d05646r) on the number of incarcerated illegal aliens and the total number of incarcerated prisoners and applying the resulting percentage to the FBI's reported number of crimes. Based on this estimate, illegal aliens would be responsible for about 31% of the murders, a rate that is about 6.2 times their representation in the population. While there are indications that this number may be more accurate, nobody really knows because NOBODY IS TRACKING IT. Returning to the FBI's crime list and a straight 5% prorated share committed by illegal aliens, some 704,709 yearly crimes, each of these crimes has both a personal and economic impact. You can easily imagine the personal devastation on the individual and families as they ask "why me?" Since all these crimes would not have happened if there were no illegal aliens in the country, the unfortunate answer is that "because we as a nation and people have tolerated, and in many cases aided and abetted, illegal immigration." The economic burden which these crimes impose on their victims and society have costs. As noted earlier there has been a tremendous increase in the law enforcement budgets and each caught criminal needs to be incarcerated at about $25,000 per year. How much more law enforcement is spending as a direct consequence of illegal aliens is unknown but reviewing the expenditure graphs, note that the rate of the expenditures increases after around 1989 which correspond with the large increase in the illegal alien population. In any case, with 267,000 illegal aliens incarcerated, as of 2003, just the incarceration costs at $25,000 per inmate per year is $6.7 BILLION per year. I'll take a wild guess that you didn't realize we were spending that much. Do you have any better ideas on what we could be spending $6.7 billion a year on rather than providing three meals a day and color TV to a bunch of illegal alien prisoners? While you think about that, here is anther one to ponder: how much money would we have saved since 1980 if there were still only 9,000 incarcerated illegal aliens rather than 267,000? As extensive as these direct costs are, there are also indirect costs imposed on the victims, including loss of income and property, uncompensated hospital bills, and treatment for resulting emotional and psychological trauma. As noted in the abstract of the report Victim costs of violent crime and resulting injuries, by Miller, Cohen, and Rossman: "This DataWatch estimates the costs and monetary value of lost quality of life due to death and nonfatal physical and psychological injury resulting from violent crime. In 1987 physical injury to people age twelve and older resulting from rape, robbery, assault, murder, and arson caused about $10 billion in potential health-related costs, including some unmet mental health care needs. It led to $23 billion in lost productivity and almost $145 billion in reduced quality of life (in 1989 dollars). If associated deaths and cases resulting in psychological injury only are included, costs average $47,000 for rape, $19,000 for robbery, $15,000 for assault, and $25,000 for arson. Considering only survivors with physical injury, rape cost $60,000, robberies $25,000, assaults $22,000, and arson $50,000. Costs are almost $2.4 million per murder. Lifetime costs for all intentional injuries totaled $178 billion during 1987-1990." Note that those costs are in 1989 dollars. Using the CPI index to adjust for 2006 dollars, multiply those numbers by 1.62 which means each rape costs society an average of $76,140 and each murder costs some $3.9 million. Thus just the 2,158 murders committed by illegal aliens burdened our society with $8.4 BILLION in costs. The report tabulates the various costs for each crime as follows: You may find similar summarized totals from the Justice Dept. in a summary Cost of Crime. Again, applying the CPI increase, the total costs in 2006 dollars would be $289 BILLION. If illegal aliens were responsible for just 5% of it then that would be $14.4 BILLION. For a comprehensive look at the cost of crime, see a report by Professor David Anderson, The Aggregate Burden of Crime, which reports that the net annual burdened costs of crime is actually far higher. The report notes that in 1999 the costs exceeded $1 trillion. In 2006 dollars that would be $1.62 TRILLION. 5% of that would be in excess of $81 BILLION. |
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I cannot copy all of this article as it is too long. But do me a favor, Exie, please read this entire article and THEN we'll talk, OK? It does refer to the US studies done by our government... the GAO. I guess maybe that's not good enough a source, huh?
http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impac...ion_crime.html Your friend, Twink |
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Hello my friend, twink: I read the article. It's not a study. It's biased. It's the opinion of its author P.F Wagner and somebody by the name of Dan Amato. It's not authoritative. The author is NOT a researcher, nor an academic. The website gives NO credentials of these individuals. They're just people with opinions similar to your own. Nope, it doesn't convince me. I'm surprised it convinces you. excon |
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Originally Posted by twinkiedooter
Originally Posted by twinkiedooter
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