[KISS]

FYI guys. I found this interesting link about MW water heaters.

Montgomery Ward water heater - Page 2 - InterNACHI Message Board

They last.

[JOHNWP]

1. Check for a port under the blanket. Bet dollars to donuts it's there.

2. When two dissimilar metals are together with an electrolyte (dirty water) it creates a battery and corrodes. See: Installing A Dielectric Union To Join Galvanized And Copper Pipes - Plumbing System Components

3. Galvanized fittings rust from the inside. That's not something you want to happen. Brass won't corrode. Well, it does but creates a protective layer like aluminum. Besides galvanized for water just isn't used anymore. The sacrificial anode also limits corrosion. Won't get into details.

4. DIP tube et. al. HowStuffWorks "How Water Heaters Work"

The hot water leaves from the top of the tank. If I dumped cold water in the top, it would layer and make the top layer of water colder.

If we inject water at the bottom of the tank, the top of the tank where the hot water comes out won't cool much, hence you get more hot water.

Still will bet dollars to donuts that the pressure relief port is on the side of the tank near the top.

Kiss,

1. I unwrapped the blanket and there is no plug.

2 & 3 Good information on the corrosion and the brass T

4 I did not realize from your photo that the dip tube was long and for the cold water. I plan to leave the dip tube alone so I do not create problems.

I wish that you were correct that there was a plug on the side.

I think that this blog's recommendation for adding a T is a good suggestion. It makes sense. However, I would like to see that the T is approved by the California Code. Thanks, John

[Milo Dolezal]

Try to take a flat screwdriver and lift that white plastic disk on top of the heater (see pic #3 ). See what's under it...

I am pretty positive the brace is not up to Code. What I see in your posted photos is a plumber's tape. Plumber's tape is used to support pipes. The approved earthquake brace has UL stamp of approval as well as stamp of approval from the City. (... these stamps can be visible on the bottom, right, of each box... )

If pressurized tank lacks required pressure relieve valve than one has to be installed by attending installer as close to the tank as possible.

[JOHNWP]

Try to take a flat screwdriver and lift that white plastic disk on top of the heater (see pic #3 ). See what's under it....

I am pretty positive the brace is not up to Code. What I see in your posted photos is a plumber's tape. Plumber's tape is used to support pipes. The approved earthquake brace has UL stamp of approval as well as stamp of approval from the City. ( ...these stamps can be visible on the bottom, right, of each box...)

If pressurized tank lacks required pressure relieve valve than one has to be installed by attending installer as close to the tank as possible.

Milo,

The white cap is labeled ECO. Under it is a connection to the top of the tank with two electrical wires. I believe that it is some kind of high-limit switch based on my checks on Google.

Plumber's tape is required to be 3/4" x 24 gauge by the Water Heater Bracing Division of the State Architect. The pre-made straps you show would be much easier to install. Thanks, John

[KISS]

This document sums a lot of stuff up: http://www.lni.wa.gov/forms/pdf/620051a0.pdf

It basically says the TPR cannot be installed in the cold side.

No reducers in the TPR path. Should vent the same amount of water going in.

Must point down within 6" of floor with an air gap.

Can't have a threaded end.

The temperature sensor MUST extend into the tank.

The "T" in the hot water outlet seems like the only option. Technicly the insertion of the TPR sensing pipe makes the outlet smaller than the inlet, but that looks like it happens in the normal setup.

You would want to get the XL version of the valve (Extended length) http://media.wattswater.com/ES-10L-100XL.pdf

Full page of valves: Watts: Temperature and Pressure Relief Valves | Water Safety & Flow Control

Just size it properly

From the date sheet:
Series 100XL
furnished with test lever and extension thermostat for installation
in the hot water outlet line or directly in the tank tapping.
Temperature sensing element must be immersed in the water
within the top 6" (152mm) of the tank. Male inlet and female
outlet. Temperature relief 210°F (99°C). Standard settings 75,
100, 125, 150psi (5.3, 7.0, 8.8, 10.6 bar).

They do suggest the "T" method and the XL version is 8" long. Measured from what - who knows. Who knows what the small one is (probably 6")

The last post here sums up all of the research: http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load...464416597.html That post did say that the heaters had pressure rupture discs. They could be at the bottom of the tank and unseen.

Found the above last.

Key: Extended length probe and make at least 6" extend into the tank.

[JOHNWP]

This document sums a lot of stuff up: http://www.lni.wa.gov/forms/pdf/620051a0.pdf

It basically says the TPR cannot be installed in the cold side.

No reducers in the TPR path. Should vent the same amount of water going in.

Must point down within 6" of floor with an air gap.

Can't have a threaded end.

The temperature sensor MUST extend into the tank.

The "T" in the hot water outlet seems like the only option. Technicly the insertion of the TPR sensing pipe makes the outlet smaller than the inlet, but that looks like it happens in the normal setup.

You would want to get the XL version of the valve (Extended length) http://media.wattswater.com/ES-10L-100XL.pdf

Full page of valves: Watts: Temperature and Pressure Relief Valves | Water Safety & Flow Control

Just size it properly

From the date sheet:
Series 100XL
furnished with test lever and extension thermostat for installation
in the hot water outlet line or directly in the tank tapping.
Temperature sensing element must be immersed in the water
within the top 6" (152mm) of the tank. Male inlet and female
outlet. Temperature relief 210°F (99°C). Standard settings 75,
100, 125, 150psi (5.3, 7.0, 8.8, 10.6 bar).

They do suggest the "T" method and the XL version is 8" long. Measured from what - who knows. Who knows what the small one is (probably 6")

The last post here sums up all of the research: Hot water heater pressure relief valve - Plumbing Forum - GardenWeb That post did say that the heaters had pressure rupture discs. They could be at the bottom of the tank and unseen.

Found the above last.

Key: Extended length probe and make at least 6" extend into the tank.

Kiss,

I think that your information is winner. The diagrams and valve data are very helpful. I will have to see if I can get the TPR probe into the tank using the 8" probe. I do not want to disturb the water heater's hot water fitting and coupling, and I am not sure how far the TPR valve will be above the tank after adding the T. Your reference material is great. I will see if it works and if the inspector buys it. Thanks, John

[speedball1]

"ALL water heaters, since the beginning of time have required a relief valve of some kind, so at a minimum you should be able to find a tapping on the side or top of the heater to accept one. "

Oh yeah?

I can see you didn't grow up with a coal stove in your kitchen and a water boiler attached to it for domestic hot water production...

No pressure relief devices on any of those tanks!

That was in the early 1950s through 1970s.

I was around back then and you're correct. Furnace Coils that's what they wrere called back then) didn't have a "pop-off valve" to relieve any pressure built up and In don't remember a T & P valve on the old gas fired units with the corkscrew copper coils inside. But I don't remember any explosions or blow ups from them either.
However, as a boy, I remember my father taking me to see the result of a water heater blowing up because there was no %T & P valve installed. The water heater was 8in the basement when it blew.
I blew through the first floor living room, through a second floor bedroom and out the roof. It landed a half block away in a vvacant field as flat as a pancake.
John,
If you don't have a T & P installed follow KISS advice and cut one in on the hot side outlet.
Good luck, Tom

[JOHNWP]

I was around back then and you're correct. Furnace Coils that's what they wrere called back then) didn't have a "pop-off valve" to relieve any pressure built up and In don't remember a T & P valve on the old gas fired units with the corkscrew copper coils inside. But I don't remember any explosions or blow ups from them either.
However, as a boy, I remember my father taking me to see the result of a water heater blowing up because there was no %T & P valve installed. The water heater was 8in the basement when it blew.
I blew through the first floor living room, through a second floor bedroom and out the roof. It landed a half block away in a vvacant field as flat as a pancake.
John,
If you don't have a T & P installed follow KISS advice and cut one in on the hot side outlet.
Good luck, Tom

Tom, thanks for the info. I never heard about these problems before and I know that I will adding a TPR valve. John

[Milo Dolezal]

FYI:

1. The Seattle Post-Intelligencer on July 28, 2001, reported on an electric water heater tank explosion where the pressures built up until the tank exploded. According to the article the force of the explosion blew the tank across six lanes of traffic and ended up in a parking lot more than 439 feet away.

2. In 1993, an older water heater exploded in a home in South St. Paul, Minn. The 200-pound tank shot through a floor, ceiling and roof like a missile to a height of 150 feet in the air. The explosion destroyed the home and injured two people.

3. In 1982 six children and one teacher were killed when a hot water heater exploded in the Star Elementary School cafeteria in Oklahoma City. Regulations were later enacted there requiring annual inspection of domestic hot water heaters in all public facilities.

4. Few years back in the 90's, in So. California, 100gln hot water heater blew up in El Toro restaurant killing one employee. It was determined the cause of explosion was absence of T&P valve on the hot water heater.

[JOHNWP]

FYI:

1. The Seattle Post-Intelligencer on July 28, 2001, reported on an electric water heater tank explosion where the pressures built up until the tank exploded. According to the article the force of the explosion blew the tank across six lanes of traffic and ended up in a parking lot more than 439 feet away.

2. In 1993, an older water heater exploded in a home in South St. Paul, Minn. The 200-pound tank shot through a floor, ceiling and roof like a missile to a height of 150 feet in the air. The explosion destroyed the home and injured two people.

3. In 1982 six children and one teacher were killed when a hot water heater exploded in the Star Elementary School cafeteria in Oklahoma City. Regulations were later enacted there requiring annual inspection of domestic hot water heaters in all public facilities.

4. Few years back in the 90's, in So. California, 100gln hot water heater blew up in El Toro restaurant killing one employee. It was determined the cause of explosion was absence of T&P valve on the hot water heater.

Milo,

Thanks for the info. All along I have been trying to get the info that would meet code. I believe that the info that Kiss has give me will satisfy the code but I will have to see what the inspector says, which will not happen for about two weeks.

I expect to install the TPR valve next week. I hope that I do not have any installation leaks/problems especially in the connections to the water heater.

John

[Milo Dolezal]

Good luck with your inspection. Please, let us know how you did... We are all learning as we go... Best Regards... Milo

[KISS]

Hey guys.. Can anybody guess what he has. Tom, I guess, is probably the best person to guess.

There is a copper pipe, a union and a galvanized threaded pipe.

What do you suppose is the joint between the copper pipe and the union?

Threaded?

Plumping solder won't stick to galvanized, but silver solder will.
If the coupling was factory, you'd expect it to be brass or copper.

Any guesses?

Can John care to take a guess. Evidence of threads?

[JOHNWP]

Hey guys.. Can anybody guess what he has. Tom, I guess, is probably the best person to guess.

There is a copper pipe, a union and a galvanized threaded pipe.

What do you suppose is the joint between the copper pipe and the union?

Threaded?

Plumping solder won't stick to galvanized, but silver solder will.
If the coupling was factory, you'd expect it to be brass or copper.

Any guesses?

Can John care to take a guess. Evidence of threads?

Kiss,

I have always thought that the coupling had threads on both ends. I do not remember seeing solder on the bottom of the coupling but I never took a mirror to look under the coupling. I will see if I can get a look tomorrow.

But, no matter what is on the bottom of the coupling, I am not considering disrupting the bottom of the coupling (in fact, I am afraid of water heater connection problems when I will work on the top of the coupling). I am hoping to find a T, which is very short, that has a male thread on the bottom and a female thread on the top. The male end will go into the coupling, and the female end will accept the TPR valve. In total, I am hoping that the 8 inch TPR valve will extend an inch or two into the water heater. What do you think?

Thanks,

John

[KISS]

My thoughts. I think that piece of copper is a copper pipe, not a copper tube. Thus the outside diameter will probably be 1.05" rather than 7/8" which is for 3/4 copper tubing. This is assuming schedule 40 pipe.

I believe the joint at the bottom is threaded and it's 3/4 copper pipe with an OD of 1.05"

Now on current hot water heaters the dip tube is plastic, thus you can't heat the top fitting on the water heater.

Putting the TPR at the top of the copper pipe, I think, would give you the 4" requirement. An 8" probe seems to be the largest.

From the looks of it, you have 1" of copper pipe and an inch of union. Now add about 1.5" (guess) for a tee, so you have 1+1+1.5 or 3.5". Subtract from 8" you get like 3.5"

I think my estimates are wrong, but the ideal place is on the top of the copper pipe. Remember, I believe it to be pipe not tubing thus it's going to have a much thicker wall.

A brass or copper Tee, would be a good choice.

As for removal, I see a union in the picture, which also makes a nice lever arm.

I'd clean up the threaded area with a Dremel wire brush or wire brush.

I think I would use one vise grip that's good for tubing and a pipe wrench for the galvanized.

I'd hold the copper pipe with the vise grips and try to move the assembly and see which one loosens first.

I don't think I would heat the joint.

If the wrong joint moved, I'd tackle the union with a pipe wrench and the copper pipe with the vise grip. Something like: The Original? Curved Jaw Locking Pliers - Tools - IRWIN TOOLS

[speedball1]

I am hoping to find a T, which is very short, that has a male thread on the bottom and a female thread on the top.

What you are looking for is a threaded brass street tee, (see image).
Good luck, Tom

[JOHNWP]

My thoughts. I think that piece of copper is a copper pipe, not a copper tube. Thus the outside diameter will probably be 1.05" rather than 7/8" which is for 3/4 copper tubing. This is assuming schedule 40 pipe.

I believe the joint at the bottom is threaded and it's 3/4 copper pipe with an OD of 1.05"

Now on current hot water heaters the dip tube is plastic, thus you can't heat the top fitting on the water heater.

Putting the TPR at the top of the copper pipe, I think, would give you the 4" requirement. An 8" probe seems to be the largest.

From the looks of it, you have 1" of copper pipe and an inch of union. Now add about 1.5" (guess) for a tee, so you have 1+1+1.5 or 3.5". Subtract from 8" you get like 3.5"

I think my estimates are wrong, but the ideal place is on the top of the copper pipe. Remember, I believe it to be pipe not tubing thus it's going to have a much thicker wall.

A brass or copper Tee, would be a good choice.

As for removal, I see a union in the picture, which also makes a nice lever arm.

I'd clean up the threaded area with a Dremel wire brush or wire brush.

I think I would use one vise grip that's good for tubing and a pipe wrench for the galvanized.

I'd hold the copper pipe with the vise grips and try to move the assembly and see which one loosens first.

I don't think I would heat the joint.

If the wrong joint moved, I'd tackle the union with a pipe wrench and the copper pipe with the vise grip. Something like: The Original? Curved Jaw Locking Pliers - Tools - IRWIN TOOLS

Kiss,

You are probably correct that it is a copper pipe that attaches to the water heater. I took two photos, one with an inspection camera to see if there are any threads on the top of the copper. I believe that there is one thread showing.

I expect to have a local plumber look at the water heater on Friday. My discussion with the plumber today confirmed that I can use a T and the plumber is concerned about piping the TPR valve to a drain or outside. I had talked to a different plumber a few weeks ago who had no idea how to add a TPR valve and that is the reason I went through the safety inspection without the TPR valve; he said that I would have to buy a new water heater, but said that it would only last at the most 15 years, which may be less than the 40+ one I now have. The cost of having to buy a new water heater has created much anxiety for me, which subsided a few days ago when I realized from your comments and others that I could add a TPR valve.

I will let you know how things work out.. Thanks, John

[KISS]

There just might be a threads there. But hold it, there are threads into the tank too and they aren't corroded either. The top threaded joint would be the hardest and doesn't appear to be ideal.

A street Tee into the heater directly probably won't work because of the clearances. A short nipple of brass chrome plated copper or what you have would work combined with a regular Tee.

Add a dialectric union and your set to go from copper to galvanized. Copper and zinc (Galvanized) are really bad together based on this table Galvanic corrosion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

12 yrs is a pretty good life for a water heater. The only difference for a heater warrantied for 5 or 10 yrs is the cost of the warranty. They come off the same assembly line.

You really can't run the TPR discharge anywhere. It really has to go to within 6" of the floor without any threaded ends.

As usual there is an expensive solution or semi-expensive solution. It makes sense to install a water heater drip pan. In 55 yrs never had an issue, but the hot water supply and gas valve is set to pilot for extended vacations. I hot water line once broke under the basement floor.

The water heater drip pan can be plumbed to a drain, but not the overflow tube directly. It's not allowed to go up and out a wall. It can go down and out a wall, but not up. It also can't be set to scald someone either if it went off.

The Water Cop is a well known flood stopper. Watercop > Overview There are others and some that aren't wireless and some that are local.

In the grand scheme of things you have a drip pan under the heater with a sensor. The sensor turns off the water. Where. Could be the cold coming in from the street. You can have sensors at the water heater and laundry and both would turn off the cold water.

So, yes a water heater TPR failure means potential flood. A leaking tank means a potential flood.

I just picked up a wireless 4-sensor flood alarm, among other things. One sensor and alarm was like $30. I'm checking for a specific point of water entry along the foundation with the alarm in the bedroom until something can be done permanently to fix it.

Some ODD comments here: http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load...420431108.html