[JoeCanada76]

Well what I tell people...

Now that I have you puzzled. I am born and raised Catholic. There are many denominations that I seen and taken part in. It does not matter what denomination I have been in, I do not think everyone or any church or denomination has it 100 percent right.

So I still go to church, catholic, Anglican, baptist, pentecostal , etc.. But my I do not believe in any one denomination being completely right because all of them are man led.

So for me, My personal relationship with God is most important.. Jesus is what leads me. The bible, the blue print of our lives is what I do my best to live by.

That is what defines me. Not what church I go to, or what denomination I go to. It is about me having a relationship with God, not the church per say.

Puzzled anymore, or does that almost explain where I am with churches in general.

[Wondergirl]

AND in fairness it isn't just the Catholic church that doesn't encourage reading of the Bible either. I have visited other churches and sat in amazement at what they taught.

Christian Science: The First Reader reads passages from Mary Baker Eddy (their founder). The Second Reader reads coordinating passages from the Bible.

[elscarta]

Again, for the record, all your claims are worthless in light of
MK 3:31, MK 3:35, and again in JN 7:5.
ALL are references to Jesus brothers and sisters.
Why is it so hard to understand the word of God?

450donn, would you be so kind as to name all of the "biological" children of Mary? Please provide scriptural references that show the "biological" connection of those children with Mary.

As a teacher I have come across many different families in which the children call themselves brothers and sisters these include:

Biological siblings
Step brothers and sisters
Half brothers and sisters (on the father's side)
Half brothers and sisters (on the mother's side)
Step brothers and sisters (living with their step-parent and the step parent's new spouse)

And most of the combinations of the above!

[Wondergirl]

So I still go to church, catholic, Anglican, baptist, pentecostal , etc.

I think that would be a great thing for all of us to do, especially as we are raising families. We were very secluded in our German Lutheran community (Yes, the whole town of 500 was German Lutheran!), and it would have done us good to look beyond our own noses. I applaud you, my friend!

per say

As your cyber auntie, I will feel free to correct you and everyone else who doesn't know: the correct spelling is per se. It's Latin and literally means "by/in itself" -- and is added when one wants to say "so to speak."

[classyT]

I don't get all the hoopla about Firstborn... it means... the first child born.

Take a look at the 10th plague in Egypt: And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the first born of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.

The only way to escape death was to put the blood of a lamb on the doorposts of your house. The death angel would PASSOVER where he saw the blood. So Why did Moses bother doing it? If firstborn meant ONLY child lets think about it... MOSES had two sons.. he had a brother and a sister ( aaron and Miriam) and his wife was one of Jethro's seven daughters so SHE wasn't a only child. So?? Why was his family in danger? Because firstborn means just that... it doesn't mean only child.

[Wondergirl]

Because firstborn means just that...it doesn't mean only child.

Right -- once you know there are other children. But if there is only one child and no others, do you continue to call that child "firstborn"?

[elscarta]

I don't get all the hoopla about Firstborn... it means... the first child born.

Because firstborn means just that... it doesn't mean only child.

Please do not jump into a discussion at the end without reading ALL of the posts regarding it. If you bothered to read all my posts regarding this you would realise that you also have done what Wondergirl did, that is reversed the order of the words and then start debating the wrong topic!

An only child is still the firstborn in a family of one! No one has ever tried to prove that the firstborn in a family must be an only child! That is just ridiculous!

Or do you think that in the time of Moses, families with only one child said to Moses "We don't care if God will kill all the firstborn, we have an only child, NOT a firstborn, so this doesn't concern us!"?

[paraclete]

I am a catholic and I do believe in the bible. Although I do also believe many people Catholics are misled. Catholics are not encouraged to pick up a bible and study for themselves. There are no bibles in catholic churches that I have been too. They teach what they want to teach, there are lots of traditions and etc... that are not biblical based which is very misleading.

I have been to many different denominations and churches growing up and still visiting other churches and will say that there are other denominations out there that clearly teach straight from the bible and encourage study of the bible, unlike the Catholic church.

Jh there is a great deal of difference between believing in the Bible and believing the Bible. The Bible says that religious people nullify the word of God with their traditions. You say you have visited other denominations and can see the difference. What then are you? One who hopes to reform his church?

There is great inconsistency in saying you are a catholic and saying they are misleading in the base of their teaching. The Church will not save you, but Jesus Christ might.

The greatest inconsistency is saying that they have a mandate because of some supposed association with Peter. They keep making the point they are the successors to Peter and yet we don't hear them make the same claims about Paul. All I can say is I think Peter would be appalled by what the Church has become and so would Paul

[Wondergirl]

Or do you think that in the time of Moses, families with only one child said to Moses "We don't care if God will kill all the firstborn, we have an only child, NOT a firstborn, so this doesn't concern us!"?

People during the time of Moses talked about a firstborn because it was the first child born, and they expected more children or more children had already been born. Couples in those times did not plan to have only one child. That was unheard of, a tragedy. They expected to have a big family.

When all firstborns died, that just happened to include onlyborns.

[450donn]

450donn, would you be so kind as to name all of the "biological" children of Mary? Please provide scriptural references that show the "biological" connection of those children with Mary.

As a teacher I have come across many different families in which the children call themselves brothers and sisters these include:

biological siblings
step brothers and sisters
half brothers and sisters (on the father's side)
half brothers and sisters (on the mother's side)
step brothers and sisters (living with their step-parent and the step parent's new spouse)

and most of the combinations of the above!

Bibleinfo.com®
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Four men—James, Joses, Simon, and Judas—are mentioned as the brothers of Jesus. (See Matthew 13:55; Mark 6:3.) There has been much discussion through the centuries as to the exact relationship of these men to Jesus. Three principal views have been advanced: (1) that they were Jesus' actual brothers, that is, half brothers, sons of Joseph and Mary (and therefore younger than Jesus); (2) that they were His stepbrothers, that is, children of Joseph by a previous marriage (and thus all older than He and not His blood relatives at all); (3) that they were the cousins of Jesus on the mother's side, according to some, or on Joseph's side, according to others. Those who hold the first view argue that this is the most natural way to understand the various references to these brothers; also that this is the most obvious intent of Matthew 1:25; Luke 2:7. Those who hold the second view argue that Oriental family ethics would not permit younger brothers to taunt or otherwise meddle with an older brother as Jesus' brothers taunted Him (see Mark 3:31; John 7:3-4). They point out further that the fact that Jesus left His mother in the care of the apostle John (John 19:26-27) rather than with one of His brothers strongly implies that Mary had no other children. The view that these brothers were the cousins of Jesus on Joseph's side is based on pure conjecture. That they were cousins on Mary's side is based on the unproved identity of "Mary, the wife of Cleophus" with the sister of Mary (John 19:25; Mark 15:40), and on the unproved identity of "Clopas" with Alphaeus (Mark 3:18). Jesus' brothers are mentioned as accompanying Jesus and his mother to Capernaum after the marriage at Cana (John 2:12). Later Mary and these brothers are recorded as seeking an audience with Jesus (Matthew 12:46-50; Mark 3:31-35; Luke 8:19-21). Toward the end of Jesus' ministry, His brethren are mentioned as urging Jesus to prove His Messiahship, which they themselves doubted (John 7:3-5). That they were later converted is clear, for they are described in Acts as uniting with the disciples and others in "prayer and supplication" prior to Pentecost (Acts 1:13-14). Paul implies that they were all married (1 Corinthians 9:5). Many commentators hold that the author of the epistle of Jude, who identifies himself as the "brother of James," was one of these brothers (Jude 1). It is also generally believed that the leader of the church at Jerusalem was James, the Lord's brother (see Acts 12:17; 15:13). This seems to be confirmed by Paul's reference to his visit to Jerusalem, in which he states that he saw only Peter, and "James, the Lord's brother" (Galatians 1:18-19).

[JoeT777]

Four men—James, Joses, Simon, and Judas—are mentioned as the brothers of Jesus. (See Matthew 13:55; Mark 6:3.) There has been much discussion through the centuries as to the exact relationship of these men to Jesus. Three principal views have been advanced: (1) that they were Jesus' actual brothers, that is, half brothers, sons of Joseph and Mary (and therefore younger than Jesus); (2) that they were His stepbrothers, that is, children of Joseph by a previous marriage (and thus all older than He and not His blood relatives at all); (3) that they were the cousins of Jesus on the mother's side, according to some, or on Joseph's side, according to others. Those who hold the first view argue that this is the most natural way to understand the various references to these brothers; also that this is the most obvious intent of Matthew 1:25; Luke 2:7. Those who hold the second view argue that Oriental family ethics would not permit younger brothers to taunt or otherwise meddle with an older brother as Jesus' brothers taunted Him (see Mark 3:31; John 7:3-4). They point out further that the fact that Jesus left His mother in the care of the apostle John (John 19:26-27) rather than with one of His brothers strongly implies that Mary had no other children. The view that these brothers were the cousins of Jesus on Joseph's side is based on pure conjecture. That they were cousins on Mary's side is based on the unproved identity of "Mary, the wife of Cleophus" with the sister of Mary (John 19:25; Mark 15:40), and on the unproved identity of "Clopas" with Alphaeus (Mark 3:18). Jesus' brothers are mentioned as accompanying Jesus and his mother to Capernaum after the marriage at Cana (John 2:12). Later Mary and these brothers are recorded as seeking an audience with Jesus (Matthew 12:46-50; Mark 3:31-35; Luke 8:19-21). Toward the end of Jesus' ministry, His brethren are mentioned as urging Jesus to prove His Messiahship, which they themselves doubted (John 7:3-5). That they were later converted is clear, for they are described in Acts as uniting with the disciples and others in "prayer and supplication" prior to Pentecost (Acts 1:13-14). Paul implies that they were all married (1 Corinthians 9:5). Many commentators hold that the author of the epistle of Jude, who identifies himself as the "brother of James," was one of these brothers (Jude 1). It is also generally believed that the leader of the church at Jerusalem was James, the Lord's brother (see Acts 12:17; 15:13). This seems to be confirmed by Paul's reference to his visit to Jerusalem, in which he states that he saw only Peter, and "James, the Lord's brother" (Galatians 1:18-19).

Did you write this? Do you know what plagiarism is? Besides this explanation is more wishful thinking and supposition than an explanation that uses both scripture and Tradition.

SEE: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Brethren of the Lord CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. James the Less

JoeT

[Wondergirl]

It's from Did Jesus have any brothers and/or sisters? | Bibleinfo.com.

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[JoeCanada76]

Paraclete,

What am I? Who am I? Where or who do I belong? I belong to God. That simple. We are to gather as Gods people and come together as one. Not be separated as so many denominations today like to separate people in groups of different denominations.

I BELONG TO GOD. NOT A CHURCH, NOT A DENOMINATION. Although I still consider myself born and raised Catholic. That is where my roots started my only loyalty is to GOD and my Family.

There is nothing wrong with me enjoying services from other denominations etc...

It seems to me Paraclete you like to pick at everything and anything.

I do not need to explain myself to you. I know the bible. I know God, have a personal relationship to God. Honestly that is all that is important.

Living my life, God guiding me. Serving God in this world for the better of the world.

[JoeT777]

Where it's from is beside the point. The point is that it is presented as original work, and it's not.
If this was an original then the author can explain why:

• In the New Testament there is no mention of siblings of Jesus, that is "sons" (or "daughters") of Mary of Joseph?

• Each year at Passover Joseph and Mary took Christ to the Temple as was the custom, on retuning they discovered Jesus was not with them. If Mary had other children they would have been younger than Christ, why weren't they mentioned? What did she do with the other children when she returned for Jesus? Luke 2:41 seqq.

• If James is his brother then why didn't he state so quite proudly when he wrote his epistle?

JoeT

[Wondergirl]

Where it's from is beside the point. The point is that it is presented as original work, and it's not.

You wondered where it was from, so I Googled and found out.

• In the New Testament there is no mention of siblings of Jesus, that is "sons" (or "daughters") of Mary of Joseph?

I don't understand this.

• Each year at Passover Joseph and Mary took Christ to the Temple as was the custom, on retuning they discovered Jesus was not with them. If Mary had other children they would have been younger than Christ, why weren't they mentioned? What did she do with the other children when she returned for Jesus? Luke 2:41 seqq.

You'll notice the Gospel writers were concise and didn't mention much besides what was important about Jesus. There was no "Joseph tied up the donkey and gave him some hay" or "Mary didn't have enough cloths for diapers, so she bought a stack of them from the innkeeper's wife." Younger children weren't part of the 12-year-old-Jesus-in-the-temple story, and undoubtedly were in the care of a neighbor or relative.

• If James is his brother then why didn't he state so quite proudly when he wrote his epistle?

Because it was well known, so why beat a dead horse?

[450donn]

Did you write this? Do you know what plagiarism is? Besides this explanation is more wishful thinking and supposition than an explanation that uses both scripture and Tradition.



JoeT

Your right I copied it from the source listed above. I have corrected the mistake in my post.
Sorry.

Is the same wishful thinking you are quoting your source as?

[classyT]

Where it’s from is beside the point. The point is that it is presented as original work, and it’s not.
If this was an original then the author can explain why:

• In the New Testament there is no mention of siblings of Jesus, that is "sons" (or "daughters") of Mary of Joseph?

• Each year at Passover Joseph and Mary took Christ to the Temple as was the custom, on retuning they discovered Jesus was not with them. If Mary had other children they would have been younger than Christ, why weren’t they mentioned? What did she do with the other children when she returned for Jesus? Luke 2:41 seqq.

• If James is his brother then why didn’t he state so quite proudly when he wrote his epistle?

JoeT

JoeT,

Because the Bible doesn't mention his siblings in the passage in Luke 2:41 means NOTHING. The story wasn't about his siblings... it was about HIM. Intersting though that Mary and Joseph could have gone so far without noticing he wasn't there don't you think? Some people speculate that families went together... cousins, Aunts, Uncles and that is why they didn't notice he wasn't there. They assumed he was with extended family. I don't know... but that certainly would explain where the other kids were... either way, it doesn't matter. The scripture doesn't put that info in because it was about the LORD Jesus. I believe the fact that Mary had no clue of why he was back in the temple makes it pretty clear she didn't get WHO he really WAS nor what he was going to do.. this is why she took his words and pondered what he had said... he was about his father's business.

We have given you scripture in the gospels when his siblings are mentioned.. you all explain them away... or use your white out...

AND... Just because James didn't PROUDLY say he was the Lord's brother again means nothing. James understood he had to be saved by him too, maybe he didn't brag about it... maybe everyone KNEW he was the Lord's brother and there was NO REASON to say it... I don't know. BUT I do know had he said it... You would explain THAT away too! The Apostle Paul certainly put it in black and white...

Galatians 1:19
New International Version (©1984)
I saw none of the other apostles--only James, the Lord's brother.


I don't know what more you want? Why in the WORLD would Paul say such a thing?

[450donn]

There is no point in going any further on this subject as those that belong to the RCC are firmly entrenched in the doctrine of their religion and choose to not listen to the truth as found in the Bible. It has been pointed out many many times that Jesus had siblings, but their religion forbids this teaching as it does not fit what the Pope choose to tell the masses.

[elscarta]

Galatians 1:19
New International Version (©1984)
I saw none of the other apostles--only James, the Lord's brother.

Galatians 1:19 (New King James Version)
19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.

This clearly states that James, the Lord's brother, is one of the Apostles but there are only Twelve Apostles of which two were called James.

Matthew 10:2-4
2These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

So Jesus' father must have been either Zebedee or Alphaeus! And all this time I thought that Joseph married Mary and was Jesus' earthly father. How did I ever get that wrong!

[JoeCanada76]

I think so many people get side tracked and entrenched into matters that do not really matter.

Who cares if Jesus had brothers or not. Who cares if Mary had other children or not. Which I believe she of course had other children which does not make her a virgin.

Anyway, the only thing that matters really is that We believe in God, Jesus is son and that we will do his will while living this life.

That's it. Plain and simple..