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Wondergirl · Mar 17, 2010, 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

paraclete,
In case you did not know, "With God all things are possible"!!!
Peace abd kindness,
Fred

Yup. That's how God was able to have a sinful woman give birth to His perfect Son.

classyT · Mar 18, 2010, 04:54 AM

Originally Posted by arcura

paraclete,
In case you did not know, "With God all things are possible"!!!
Peace abd kindness,
Fred

Fred, Joe,

So TRUE! With God ALL things ARE possible. But we can't just make stuff up to fit our beliefs. If something as big as Mary never sinned, or suddenly became UNABLE to sin was in the Bible then I would accept it. But it isn't there... I believe we are told NOT to add to it. Making Mary more than she was... is not fair to her. I believe if she were here today, she'd be appalled.( oh YES I DID just say that.. ) She was a woman, born into sin through no fault of her own just like you and me. According to the Bible she found favor in God's eyes and became pregnant with God himself by the power of the Holy Spirit. Why add more than what the Bible records about her? Her role is AWESOME and miracle enough.

arcura · Mar 18, 2010, 02:06 PM

I still believe that Mary was completely sin free when Jesus was born. I see it as necessary.
Otherwise it is like trying to drink clean water from a dirty class.
The water become tainted.
Jesus was NOT tainted.
Fred

Wondergirl · Mar 18, 2010, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

I still believe that Mary was completely sin free when Jesus was born. I see it as necessary.
Otherwise it is like trying to drink clean water from a dirty class.
The water become tainted.
Jesus was NOT tainted.
Fred

Your church can have a sinless Mary come from a sinful Anne, but not a sinless Jesus come from a sinful Mary?

arcura · Mar 18, 2010, 02:20 PM

Wondergirl,
Please at least try to understand why the Catholics and others believe that Mary was sinless.
It is all based on Holy Scripture as has been posted here.
I am not trying to get you to chnge your mind, just to understand.
We Christians need to get along and not fight one another.
We are at war with the world.
Peace and kindness, Fred.

Wondergirl · Mar 18, 2010, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

Wondergirl,
Please at least try to understand why the Catholics and others believe that Mary was sinless.
It is all based on Holy Scripture as has been posted here.
I am not trying to get you to chnge your mind, just to understand.
We Christians need to get along and not fight one another.
We are at war with the world.
Peace and kindness, Fred.

I love you to pieces, Fred, and am not fighting with you. Please answer my question. I am trying to understand.

450donn · Mar 18, 2010, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

Wondergirl,
Please at least try to understand why the Catholics and others believe that Mary was sinless.
It is all based on Holy Scripture as has been posted here.
I am not trying to get you to chnge your mind, just to understand.
We Christians need to get along and not fight one another.
We are at war with the world.
Peace and kindness, Fred.

Sorry Fred, I must have missed the post where you posted the actual scripture where it states that Mary was conceived and born of a virgin. So could you please repost it for us?
But just in case you don't have one, could you also please explain all these virgin births going back 20 or 30 generations leading up to Mary being totally sinless.

classyT · Mar 18, 2010, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

I still believe that Mary was completely sin free when Jesus was born. I see it as necessary.
Otherwise it is like trying to drink clean water from a dirty class.
The water become tainted.
Jesus was NOT tainted.
Fred

Well to quote the Bible and something you recently posted... With GOD ALL things are possible. ;) He was fully God, fully man and the Bible never records that Mary was sinless... only the Lord Jesus. I will shut up now because I'm saying the same thing over and over... I reckon you know where I stand and why. :)

arcura · Mar 18, 2010, 05:47 PM

Wondergirl,
As I mentioned, it is a matter of deductive reasoning that Mary had to be sinless to give birth to a pure Jesus.
He was full of grace and most blessed of all women from God and therefore without sin via an emaculate conception from her mother.
Luke 1:28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Luke 1:42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
Luke 1:45 And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.
Oeace and kindness,
Fred

paraclete · Mar 18, 2010, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

Wondergirl,
As I mentioned, it is a matter of deductive reasoning that Mary had to be sinless to give birth to a pure Jesus.

Sorry Fred but God does not follow man's logic because nothing about the way in which we are redeemed is logical from man's perspective and there is no reason given by God why he should have followed your deductive reasoning in relation to the birth of Jesus. 2+2 does not equal five

arcura · Mar 18, 2010, 06:04 PM

paraclete,
I USE the Holy Bible for that and God DOES allow me to think.
Thank You,
Fred

Wondergirl · Mar 18, 2010, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

Wondergirl,
As I mentioned, it is a matter of deductive reasoning that Mary had to be sinless to give birth to a pure Jesus

Yes, Fred. I got that part. Now, answer my question: Why wasn't Anne sinless too?

arcura · Mar 18, 2010, 08:16 PM

Wondergirl,
There was no need for Ann to be sinless because God made her conception of Mary to be immaculate.
I thought that you understood that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Wondergirl · Mar 18, 2010, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

Wondergirl,
There was no need for Ann to be sinless because God made her conception of Mary to be immaculate.
I thought that you understood that.

Therefore, there was no need for Mary to be sinless because God made the conception of Jesus to be immaculate.

arcura · Mar 18, 2010, 08:57 PM

Wondergirl,
That is one way to look at it but I do not.
I think Jesus needed to come from a pure vessel.
It's like drinking pure water from a clean glass.
I hope that you can understand my thinking on that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

JoeT777 · Mar 18, 2010, 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Therefore, there was no need for Mary to be sinless because God made the conception of Jesus to be immaculate.

Look at what you wrote. I know what you mean, but without a virgin Mary when explaining, what you will always end up with is... "God made Jesus"; or something just like that. If Jesus is God, HOW CAN HE BE MADE? God is not created, therefore God cannot make God.

JoeT

arcura · Mar 18, 2010, 09:11 PM

JoeT7,
Excellent point well made.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Wondergirl · Mar 18, 2010, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by JoeT777

Look at what you wrote. I know what you mean, but without a virgin Mary when explaining, what you will always end up with is ... "God made Jesus"; or something just like that. If Jesus is God, HOW CAN HE BE MADE? God is not created, therefore God cannot make God.

JoeT

Yes, Joe, look VERY CAREFULLY at what I wrote. I said very clearly, "God made the CONCEPTION of Jesus to be sinless."

Wondergirl · Mar 18, 2010, 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

Wondergirl,
That is one way to look at it but I do not.
I think Jesus needed to come from a pure vessel.

Thus, a sinless Mary needed to come from a pure vessel.

JoeT777 · Mar 18, 2010, 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Yes, Joe, look VERY CAREFULLY at what I wrote. I said very clearly, "God made the CONCEPTION of Jesus to be sinless."

Then He's not begotten, but made, whether it's through conception or very carefully through conception.

JoeT