[inthebox]

How To Deal With Unintended Acceleration - Tech Dept. - Auto Reviews - Car and Driver


Toyota Recall: Scandal, Media Circus, and Stupid Drivers - Editorial - Car and Driver




We're no Toyota apologists, but if you look past the media circus, the numbers don't reveal a meaningful problem. Every man, woman, and child in the U.S. has approximately a one-in-8000 chance of perishing in a car accident every year. Over a decade, that's about one in 800. Given the millions of cars included in the Toyota recalls and the fewer than 20 alleged deaths over the past decade, the alleged fatality rate is about one death per 200,000 recalled Toyotas. Even if all the alleged deaths really are resultant from vehicle defects—highly unlikely—and even if all the worst things people are speculating about Toyotas are true, and you're driving one, and you aren't smart or calm enough to shift to neutral if the thing surges, you're still approximately 250 times likelier to die in one of these cars for reasons having nothing to do with unintended acceleration. So if you can muster the courage to get into a car and drive, the additional alleged risk of driving a Toyota is virtually negligible.




The solution? Drive a manual / standard transmission. Really who is this helping? - lawyers and the UAW. Who is this harming? Americans employed by toyota. Suppliers of toyota, businesses supported by toyota employees etc...

Disclosure : I live close to Georgetown KY, maker of Camry's

Really, who is going to harm he most people? Congress' taxing us and spending us into oblivion or Toyota?


You know what this will lead to? Black boxes in cars. After an accident, investigators will be able to determine all the conditions leading up to the accident - say hello to big brother / nanny state.




G&P

[NeedKarma]

You took a car recall and turned it into a nanny state issue? You have way too much free time.

[tomder55]

You don't recall more than 8 million vehicles in 4 months unless you have problems.Toyota did not take the issue seriously according to internal documents .This was a huge error of judgement that will affect their bottom line. The fact is that Toyota chose to ignore incidents that should've concerned them .To date they still do not know why these incidents are happening . Now any remedy they propose is suspect.

The fact is that they will take a hit ,and yes there are plenty of jobs affected . But they will be taking a hit not because of government mandates ;but because of hubris.

There are already black boxes in most cars .The difference ? Most companies use standard commercial black box readers .Toyota does not have them here ;but is now preparing to send some to the US.

Many auto companies engineer their cars with standard brake override for times when both the accelerator and the brake are depressed by the driver's foot. It is a reasonable failsafe mechanism . It doesn't help their cause to claim the consumers of their product are too stupid to safely use it.

That being said ,you also have a point about the government. The internal documents revealed that the executives boasted about saving $100 million by successfully negotiating with the government on a limited recall over complaints of sudden acceleration;and by negotiating an "equipment recall" of floor mats . What's up with that ? This is government regulation at it's best .
I would love to see how many regulators at the NHTSA are former Toyota execs. It is the same type of revolving door between government and industry that is true in other fields like banking . The question should be which schmucks in the government negotiated away the safety standards ?

Rest assured ,Toyota has a big problem on their hands and it appears to be deeply embedded in their corporate structure.

Will they survive ? Probably . Most Toyota owners are happy with their cars. Ford had similar issues with the Explorer and Bridgestone had them wth their tires. Both eventually recovered.

McNeill survived when Tylenol was tampered with by decisively addressing the issue ;being upfront about it and making the proper corrections. Toyota should use that example as a model .If it's not too late.

[cdad]

Sorry but your missing the point here on Toyota. It has nothing to do with safety. As has been pointed out they are safe cars. What it has to do with is... Conflict of Interest.

It's that simple. They have a hole and now they are trying to crack it open. Yes, I said it. Congress is up to no good AGAIN!!

How is conflict of interest created in this situation. Think about it. Congress has a personal stake in doing as much damage to toyota as it possibly can. After all they own their own car company. Lets not forget GM has been watching the japanese car maker climb the ranks and make its way into american hearts for years. So now you have the owners ( congress ) overstepping everything to dump on a competitor. Why can't people see it?

[tomder55]

Sticky accelerators;sudden acceleration and faulty brakes are not the doing of the government . And I doubt that Government Motors will benefit greatly from the problem.

Is Government Motors trying to exploit this ? Of course... I would too. That is why they as well as Ford and Honda are offering trade in incentives.

As much as there may be a vested interest in propping up the domestic big 3 (or is it 2 ?) the truth is that Toyota is very much a brand manufacuted in the US . If it is Congress' intent to bring it down then they are being shortsighted. They would only hurt American auto workers if that is the case.
But also;there is plenty of crony capitalism involved in the Toyota relationship with Congress itself.
That is becoming increasingly apparent as the story unfolds.
I already pointed out the conflict of interests in the NHTSA and industry revolving door. Is it not at least coincidental that the head of NHTSA, David Strickland, worked eight years for Sen Jay Rockefeller,whose State hosts the Toyota manufacturing plant ?

Aikio Toyoda wrote an op-ed for WSJ and put the responsibility for this squarely where it belongs... problems in their quality control and a lack of transparency.
Akio Toyoda: Back to Basics for Toyota - WSJ.com

[paraclete]

So we are to believe this is another storm in a tea cup, but in reality it isn't, it's about quality and responsibility. It is unfortunate that Toyota sullied their reputation by stalling on fixing problems. This recall explains to some extent why I have found my Toyota going faster than I had set the cruise but that is one or maybe two occasions in perhaps ten years and you know all you have to do is touch the break

[cdad]

Previous to this I know of no auto manufacturer that had a direct attack on another other then to say " our quality is better" You didn't see commercials touting the competitors car blowing up or showing the faults. But with congress at the wheel they are keeping it in the forefront when in fact it isn't as major a problem as they want us to believe. All manufaturers have occasional recalls. This is being done out of spite because they own a auto company already. Also most of toyota is nonunion labor. That just adds to the flames.

[tomder55]

The Washington Compost picked up on the relationship between Toyota and several key lawmakers including some who are on the related oversight committees .
washingtonpost.com

In fact your own Rep. Jane Harman recused herself because she and her husband started a company(Harman International ) that sells audio components to Toyota ;and they are Toyota stock holders . She is a key member of the House Energy and Commerce Committee.

Yesterday ,addressing the problems associated with the recalls Toyota announced that they will add the brake override system into their cars. A little late but better than nothing.

But they are only now dealing with the source of the problem which apparently is not in driver error ,or floor mats ;but in basic flaws in their electronics .

Dave Gilbert, a professor at Southern Illinois University automotive technology department found a design flaw in the electronic system, which prevents the vehicles onboard computer from “detecting and stopping certain short circuits that can trigger sudden speed surges.” As a result of the onboard computers failure to detecting and stopping the short circuits, the computer does not record an error code; and doesn't activate the system that is designed to shut off the vehicle's power and put it into “limp home” mode. Therefore there is no way to trace back to the original issue after an incident of sudden acceleration, which has led Toyota officials to continue dismissing accusations of electronic malfunctions. A Safety Research & Strategies advocate stated, “The system is fallible, in fact, it's got some really troubling design strategies that are employed by Toyota that appear to be outside the norm. And their system clearly has design strategy that has a very slim margin of safety.”
Gilbert's test and demonstrations are showing what could occur in everyday life because of corrosion, moisture and the manufacturing imperfections. The problem was discovered in four Toyota models—Lexus, Tundra, Avalon and Matrix.

Expert finds flaw in Toyota ?fail safe? electronic system; explains accelerations | Justice News Flash | JusticeNewsFlash Release

It is clear to me that rather than taking the necessary steps to investigate the issues;Toyota brushed off the seriousness of the problems in their designs ,and instead opted ,with the cooperation of regulators to do the bare minimum corrective actions. Make no mistake about it .This is an issue because of Toyota actions... or rather inactions .

[inthebox]

Look at the numbers. 34 deaths, and any is too many, in how many years, in how many millions of vehicles, over how many millions of miles?

Airbags Associated With Increased Automobile Accident Deaths, According To New UGA Study

Where are the congressional hearings into airbag deaths?

Sudden Acceleration's Cause Hard to Pinpoint - WSJ.com

Toyota is getting a lot of attention for sudden unintended acceleration, but Ford Motor Co. has been the subject of more complaints with federal regulators in the recent past. From 2004 to 2009, based on NHTSA data, Ford had 2,806 complaints, compared with Toyota's 2,515. General Motors Co. had 1,192. A study by Edmunds.com, an independent market-research Web site, found that based on the number of vehicles on the road, Toyota ranked 17th in recalls, with Land Rover, recently acquired by India's Tata Motors Ltd. having the most..

Why aren't other car companies brought before congress for the same problems?


The fact is a great percentage of these incidents are caused by driver error, but "the customer is always right" mentality wins out.

YouTube - Toyota Owner: Ride 'A Near Death Experience'

She puts the car into neutral? And no effect? She puts the car into reverse? You ever do that to your car? Not possible if your moving forward. It will destroy your transmission. She is going over 100 mph and nothing is working, but she has the ability and time to use the bluetooth ? The car stopped? And yet later the car is still going 30 or so mph? Did someone proof read her prepared statement?

Where is the independent mechanical and electronic assessment of her car?



------------------------

As per the car and driver test, I decided to test my own car, a 2003 GM with a supercharged V6. At 60 mph cruise and then flooring the accelerator, I was able to shift into neutral, and despite the engine revving to redline the car coasted and started to slow. Next at 40 mph, with no one behind me, I floored the accelerator with my right foot and a second later simultaneously floored the brake with my left foot. My car slowed down to a stop.



G&P

[inthebox]

Tom


Re your link? I wonder if these supposed electronic glitches could ever be reproduced? Reproducing these electronic glitches would be far more convincing rather than just speculation.


G&P

[KISS]

I want to thank the original OP for finding the links. I can relate directly to total brake and being able to stop.

I observed personally where the gas and brake were somehow mistaken and a car backed up quickly into a tree on our property.

Lets face it management primarily cares about money. Not people. Not lives. Money.

You can have the best engineers working on a problem an they come up with an elegant solution and it's killed by management. Management has the ultimate power. The problem is that the laws don't seem to apply to management or management's laws are different and unenforceable.

Who will enforce them?

Suppose you have solid proof of wrongdoing, but if you used it you could be in trouble with the law?

Just like the health care fiasco. What we decide won't apply to the lawmakers, will it?

We have a mall which seems to be impossible to get out of. SR#'s (State Route #'s) are marked with N S or E & W, but the city isn't there like in highway signs. It used to be. My gues they weren't put back because it costs money.

A popular Wallmart doesn't have their exit labeled. You have to relay on in/out arrows on the pavement. The one you need to turn on has both. All others are one way. I complained. Went in one ear and out the other.

No one cares?

What's better a cautionary sign where the background is yellow and the words "Bridge freezes before road surface" or black letters on a white background that say "Bridges Ice before Highways". The State Dept of Transportation agreed with me, but they said, "We would have to change all of our signs".

Huh?

Clearly it's wrong, but it would cost too much to fix it. Sound familiar?

[KISS]

Tom


re your link? I wonder if these supposed electronic glitches could ever be reproduced? Reproducing these electronic glitches would be far more convincing rather than just speculation.


G&P

I've worked on may intermittant problems. Mostly electronic. You tend to guess. You might use heat. You might use freeze spray.

I also helped a vendor debug a iece of software in which they said I was the only one to have that problem. They sent be a modified program that created debug information and they found it and fixed it. It's nice when that happens. It's nice when someone cares.

When you add computer software to the mix anything can happen. There is a programming environment called LabVIEW which uses a concept called "data flow programming". In this model, all of the data must be available to a module in order for that module to execute. It lends itself to very easy parallel programming and the possibility of what's called a "race condition" which used to only happen with hardware. The programmer must be careful not to cause them.

[KISS]

Tom


re your link? I wonder if these supposed electronic glitches could ever be reproduced? Reproducing these electronic glitches would be far more convincing rather than just speculation.


G&P

I've worked on may intermittant problems. Mostly electronic. You tend to guess. You might use heat. You might use freeze spray.

I also helped a vendor debug a iece of software in which they said I was the only one to have that problem. They sent be a modified program that created debug information and they found it and fixed it. It's nice when that happens. It's nice when someone cares.

When you add computer software to the mix anything can happen. There is a programming environment called LabVIEW which uses a concept called "data flow programming". In this model, all of the data must be available to a module in order for that module to execute. It lends itself to very easy parallel programming and the possibility of what's called a "race condition" which used to only happen with hardware. The programmer must be careful not to cause them.

[tomder55]

Tom


Re your link? I wonder if these supposed electronic glitches could ever be reproduced? Reproducing these electronic glitches would be far more convincing rather than just speculation.

Instead of blaming it on the stupid drivers Toyota should send engineers to the professor and see if in fact he found a cause for this.

The drivers involved did not make this up regardless of how they reacted . If I'm paying $25-30 thousand for a car I think there should be a reasonable expectation that these incidents won't happen... and if they do; the manufacturer won't dismiss it as me not knowing what I am doing when there is clearly a design flaw.

I also helped a vendor debug a iece of software in which they said I was the only one to have that problem. They sent be a modified program that created debug information and they found it and fixed it. It's nice when that happens. It's nice when someone cares.

Exactly . The vendor didn't say (hee hee ) let's recall the floor mats.

[inthebox]

Tom

Yes, it isn't great PR to blame the driver. Remember Audi in the 80s? They had an unintended acceleration problem that was eventually traced to the drivers and because , Audi, unlike domestic carmakers of he time, had their gas and brake pedals closer.

If this is an electronic, computer problem, I would think that the problem could be reproduced, and that instead of congress holding a dog and pony show, they should just have the engineering and computer experts get to the bottom of this.

I'm too young to have had the joy of adjusting carburetors or gapping spark plugs etc. but it is electronic and computer controls that have made cars safer and more efficient: antilock brakes, stability control, traction control, engine management etc..


G&P

[tomder55]

instead of congress holding a dog and pony show, they should just have the engineering and computer experts get to the bottom of this.

But Congress is best when they pontificate. Besides;it is not the taxpayer's responsibility to do Toyota's R&D. What you mean is that Toyota should've set their engineers on the project instead of making back door deals with the regulators.

I'm too young to have had the joy of adjusting carburetors or gapping spark plugs etc.

You haven't missed a thing.

it is electronic and computer controls that have made cars safer and more efficient: antilock brakes, stability control, traction control, engine management etc..

Agreed .However they aren't infallible. I recently had an issue with my gas tank. Valves installed inside the tank would shut close preventing my filling the tank.It took the Subaru folks weeks before they resolved it.
Fine ,that wasn't life threatening .But sudden acceleration is .Toyota did not take the issue seriously and that is where they erred .

Akio Toyoda took some impotant steps to repair the damage with his testimony yesterday. But make n mistake ,this is a self inflicted wound on their reputation.

[tomder55]

Runaway Toyota Prius Driver With Stuck Accelerator Hits 94 MPH, Rescued by California Highway Patrol - ABC News

A Prius went into sudden acceleration and it required the joint efforts of the driver and the CHIPS to bring the car to a hault. The car reached speeds of 94mph.

Maybe the floor mats were no good ?

[spitvenom]

In if 34 people died on American soil from a terrorist attack you would want something done right away with the full power of the government. So why is it oh its only 34 people when Toyota kills them?

[tomder55]

Don't know what you are talking about . I certainly don't dismiss life lost in any terrorist strike.

But in this case it is not about lives lost ;it is a dangerous defection in their product that they must admit to and fix . Just for reasons of PR they should be making that their number 1 priority and they should stop trying to blame the users of their product.

[tomder55]

The evidence is beginning to confirm that this Prius incident was a "balloon boy" type fraud.