[samss]

Newb at this forum, but wanted some advise from those in the know about residential electrical as my background is in commercial MEP systems(mechaincal engineer by trade). House isn't 3ph so not my forte. I have run new circuits in the past and added subpanels for basements and such but the house I moved into about a month ago appears to be a real mess and I would like some advise.

WARNING! POST IS NO DOUBT TOO LONG!

House is 3000ft^2 ranch in Texas. Originally 4 bedroom 3 bath with formal living room and dining room, kitchen, study, breakfast room, laundry room and attached two car garage. Some time in the past it was partly renovated and now is 3 bedroom. 2 of the three originals became one guest, the third non-master BR became part of the master and the garage became the third bedroom. House has also a 2 car detached garage and pool. Now to the electrical.

Incoming from the mast on the outside of the house is a locked(with the little wire ring thingy) 320 amp Millbank Type R enclosure with the meter on it.

Also outside is a Square D QO load center with a 200 amp principal breaker at the top center. It is fed directly from the Millbank by 3/0 copper for the two power and one neutral wires and what looks like probably 2 gage copper ground(also from the Millbank). Ground and neutral are bonded in this enclosure. This panel has only 4 breakers in it.
One 100amp double that feeds the detached garage panel with 2/0 aluminum for the two power and the neutral down into an underground conduit. The neutral from it comes off the square D neutal bus as 1/0 copper then is connected to the 2/0 aluminum leading out(taped up terminal just hanging in there).
Other three breakers in the Square D are for the A/C Heating unit added during the renovation I am guessing(just guessing that's when it was added not what the breakers serve). There are two 60amp double breakers for the electric heat and one 40 amp double for the condensing unit. (Concerned as one of the 60 amp circuits' wiring is undersized or heating element is bad because the wire has apparently gotten hot as the backing paper for the insulation in the attic that it runs over is black in spots. Scary)

In the house in my wife’s closet is a Federal Pacific breaker box (crap) that has a 200 amp main breaker with all the rest of the house fed from it through those toy looking breakers they used. Total breakers in the box adds to 620 amps not that everything would be on all at once but it seems a bit much. This is fed directly from the Millbank by 3/0 copper for the power and neutral lines and again what appears to be 2 gauge copper ground. Again the ground and neutral are bonded in this panel.

I outlined the breakers below. It's a weird panel to me but 220 circuits can be either 2 slots(half of 2 numbers like bottom of 3 and top of 5 with both 3 and 5 having a 110 also on them) or 4 slots (two full numbers like 1 and 3) all the 110 stuff is singles as I have listed it, but I guess they are really half breakers?

Federal Pacific box circuits include two 60 amp doubles(actually 4 slots each but 220) for the electric heat on the other heat a/c unit with another 60amp double(actually 4 slots but 220) going to the condensing unit. Two 30 amp doubles(220) going to the two water heaters, one 40 amp double(quad again but 220) for the oven, one 40 amp double(220) for the range and one 30 amp double(220) for the dryer. 20 amp single for the freezer, 20 amp single for the dishwasher, 20 amp single for the microwave, and 15 amp single for the washing machine. Two 20amp singles marked kitchen, one 20 amp single marked master bath(there is no jetted tub) and the remaining nine 15amp singles are marked lights.

Detached garage has a GE powermax plus load center with no main breaker. No ground coming in so at least no bonded neutral and ground again. 2/0 cooper power and neutral lines in. They were aluminum at the Square D(if you remember from above) so must have changed again somewhere in between underground in the conduit. Circuits served are a 20 amp single for the pool equipment and a 20 amp double(220) for pool equipment, two 20 amp singles for garage lights and a 20 amp double for garage 220 outlet.


So I gather this house basically has 400amp service.

I am kind of brainstorming, but some advise on what would make sense would be appreciated.

Thinking replace the FP panel with a square D or GE (opinions on those two brands?) and add a second on the other side of the house. Maybe a 200 amp on the bedroom side for the lights and outlets over there as well as the large heat A/C unit on that side. Then another 200 amp on the other side to serve the remaining lights, the kitchen, laundry and other a/c heater.

Does that seem reasonable? Should they both feed from the Millbank directly or one from the Millbank and one from the Square D existing load center?

I need to figure something out here as this whole place, which is a nice house, has had some crazy DIYer doing crazy things. Have lots of switches that seem to do nothing, lights for outside of house controlled by switch in the attic and my personal favorite, one light served by two switches. Not 3way and not on the other side of the room from each other, but in the same wall box and two different circuits coming into it and two going out to the light. I'm sure there's other scary stuff that will turn up when I actually get to doing the wiring, but I would like some advise on what to do immediately to keep the house from burning.

Any help is appreciated and sorry about the egregiously long post/question.

[tkrussell]

Any chance you can provide photos of each panel opened?

[samss]

Any chance you can provide photos of each panel opened?

GE panel in detached garage.

[KISS]

I think you'll need to wait about 24 hrs as a member before you can post photos. Use go advanced/Manage attachments.

Two things that stood out:

1. panel in a closet
2. Don't add the breaker amperage. It's usually a meaningless number.

[samss]

Any chance you can provide photos of each panel opened?

FP panel in house

[samss]

Any chance you can provide photos of each panel opened?

Square D on side of house

[samss]

Any chance you can provide photos of each panel opened?

Millbank and blackened insulation paper in attic

[tkrussell]

OK, thanks for the pictures, helps so much.

Yes, you have technically a 400 amp service, called a 320 amp service. Electrical equipment is not to be load more than 80%, so 80 % of 400 is 320 amps.

Kiss is correct on both counts, panelboards are not allowed in clothes closets, and adding breakers means nothing.

Hard to tell by the pictures, but each 200 amp panel is considered as the Mains, and needs to have a grounding electrode conductor going to the same grounding electrode. This may be a #6 if both are connected to ground rods. If you have a metal water line serving the home, then both panels need a #4 connecting to the water main, and then out to ground rods.

Only at these two main panels can the neutral and equipment ground be connected together.

By the new code, the garage panel, since the garage is detached, needs the neutral bar separated from equipment ground, by removing the strap I can see connected to the panel box. Then add a equipment ground bar by bolting direct to the metal panel box, and only have white neutrals connect to the neutral bar, and green or bare grounds connected to the equipment ground bar. This also needs a green or bare gound wire form the main panel to the garage panel. And connect the grounding bar to a ground rod with a #6.

Check with the local inspector, you may be able to leave the 3 wire feeder and the grounding on the garage panel as is.

Not sure what the issue is with the picture with the cables and insulation.

Yes, change out the FPE panel to either a GE or Square D, both are fine.

I just changed out an FPE panel just like your about a month ago, got destroyed by water leak. I did not try to find a replacement 200amp breaker like that. Now I know someone that has one.

The aluminum to copper connection that happens someplace must be using wire connectors rated to handle both al and copper.

Multiple Main Breakers need to be grouped together, or, each should have a label warning of another Main,and the location.

You will need to look into each switch problem and correct them one by one.

Otherwise I don't see too any serious issues.

Get back with what I may not have been clear with, or any other questions.

[samss]

That was helpful and yes when its done I'd be happy to get rid of the FP in some means that would actully help someone rather than just toss it.

The insulation pic was of the possible burning of the paper from the lines crossing it, but I guess it could just be from age or whatever, just concerned me when I saw it as I'm used to all wiring being inside of conduit and if and any indication of burn marks is a really hot wire that is a fire hazard for certain.

So would you say a reasonable or at least party reasonable plan of action would be to do the following:

Get rid of the FP panel.
Put a new in house main panel of either of the brands I listed previously.
Not put it in the closet, but rather put it in the laundry room where a breaker box seems to make sense at least in my percetion of normal.
Put both heating A/C units on the outside mounted Square D main panel.


If this seems okay it would bring a partly related question of wire size as the laundry room is on the other side of the house from the FP and power entry into the house. Its around 80 feet away in a straight line but of course I don't want to run the lines across my house but in the attic so add at least ten feet on each end(to get into the attic) and a bit in between to go around other ceilings that are higher and say it won't be longer than 120'. Is 3/0 copper okay for this? 2/0 is big enough for 200amps no? Can and should I run it in conduit in the attic? Maybe the plastic/vinyl stuff that's grey as it look a little easier to work with up there.

Let me know or let me know if I'm out of line and should have started a new thread for this. Don't really know the etiquette here and figure its at least related as it's the same house.

Thanks again.

[KISS]

Keep in the same thread just like you did. It's all related.

See if you can locate any markings on the cables in the attic.

Tk can give a better explantion of required panel clearances.

[tkrussell]

#2/0 copper is fine for this feeder, 3 #2/0 and 1- # 4 green in 2 inch Sch 40 PVC will work. Since it will run in attic and due to heat, will need an expansion coupling in the conduit.

Or you can run #4/0 4 wire SER aluminum cable.

A panel needs 30 in wide clear space, does not need to be centered on panel, and 36 inch deep in front of panel.

The cables look fine, but need to run your hand over them to see if the plastic is damaged, if the cable got hot you will find evidence. The black mark looks normal thou.

Putting the AC units outdoor will be fine, even better out there.

[tkrussell]

Stop the presses, hold the horses, get the women and children in the cellar!!

Before we go any further, I was thinking about this during the day, I need more detail.

Exactly where are the Main Circuit Breakers for each panel?

If they are in the panels in the photos, what is the distance of feeder from meter to each panel?

Are there Main Breakers out at the meter?

Depending on your answers, there may be a serious issue to deal with.

[tkrussell]

Sam, where did you go?

There may be some issues with your system.