[OntarioGirl]

The following is a summary of my accident and charge. If anyone has any advice (other then calling X-Coppers which I have already done) I would appreciate it. Be it insurance rates and companies that re reasonable or be it techincalities.

This is my charge:

142. (1) The driver or operator of a vehicle upon a highway before turning to the left or right at any intersection or into a private road or driveway or from one lane for traffic to another lane for traffic or to leave the roadway shall first see that the movement can be made in safety, and if the operation of any other vehicle may be affected by the movement shall give a signal plainly visible to the driver or operator of the other vehicle of the intention to make the movement. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 142 (1).

A fine of 110$ and 2 points.

This is my side of the picture:

My situation is (I am going to give some of the background of my situation as well so you understand why I am looking to fight this beside the simple fact that I was obeying the law):

I just bought a car. I use to live in Toronto and had no need to drive. I took drivers ed for the insurance discount. The earliest I could get my test to go to G2 was 2 weeks after the date of my accident. I was also suppose to insure my car starting the date I got my G2. I was driving under my friends insurance with my friend in the car with me at the time as well as our young children.

This afternoon *4:28 p.m. Sept. 7th, 2006* I was making a left turn at an intersection with an advanced green arrow... I was 4th in line in the turning lane. I was making my left turn with an advanced green arrow in the direction of my turn. The arrow was green when I entered the intersection. The arrow changed to amber half way through my turn (while I was still in the intersection). At this point I would normally still had sufficient time to pass through the intersection and complete my turn. Stopping where I was when I saw the amber arrow would have been directly in front of oncoming traffic.

There was a road work sign stand, pilons, and a lit directional sign directing traffic from the other direction to go around the man hole.

Example of style of sign and sign particulars:
- Approximately 4 feet x 4 feet wide and between 8-10 feet high.
- The sign consisted of metal frame work with the lit directional sign directed toward northbound traffic.
- The sign was positioned approximately 1/3 – 1/2 of the way in front of each lane designated for through traffic in a northbound direction. It was also positioned in a way that blocked any possibility of making a wider turn and illegally entering the second lane (furthest lane to the right) on King Street (direction eastbound).
- Around the base of the sign there were orange conical markers (often referred to as pylons).

A woman in a sunfire decided she was not going to wait till she had a green light and entered the intersection early... and quickly. I applied the brakes, and attempted to steer away from her car to minimize damage to her car. Knowing full well that the odds of avoiding the accident were slim. The last thing I saw her do was lift her hands off her wheel and appear to have a surprised look on her face.

*Normally I might have been able to steer around her car, but this time the very large road sign blocked my alternate route of escape.*

I then applied the brakes and attempted to steer away from her car in a direction that may have prevented a collision. My goal was to minimize damage to both vehicles, even though I was fully aware that the odds were not in our favor to avoid the accident and slim may be an over estimation.

Needless to say after a 2 hour wait (while the woman in the other car played the water works alternating with flirting with the tow truck drivers {the car was deemed driveable by the officers on scene by the way.}) the officer to evaluate our accident showed up.

The officer involved deemed this accident my fault. The reason he stated that he felt it was my fault was because the arrow turned amber while I was in the middle of my turn and I was turing left.

The result of this is that I have been given a ticket for "Turn – Not in safety".

The interesting little details are as follows:

The officer imporperly filled in the accident report - did not write details of our statements, checked the yes box instead of no box for the suspended licence for BOTH of us, etc. etc. It is a laundry list there.

When I questioned the officer how it was possible that I was being charged with this if I had a directional arrow for my turn. I asked him to clarify the law regarding entering an intersection when there was a directional arrow in use. Because I recalled Section 144(14) mainly because I had just completed in class Driver Education Lessons for which I obtained a final exam mark of 98%.

Green arrow
(14) Every driver approaching a traffic control signal showing one or more green arrow indications only or in combination with a circular red or circular amber indication and facing the indication may proceed only to follow the direction shown by the arrow. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (14)

- facing the indication may proceed only to follow the direction shown by the arrow. which I was doing at the time that I entered the intersection.


The officer then informed me that the driver of the other vehicle claimed she had a green light upon entering the intersection.

He said that because my light had turned amber while in the intersection it was my fault even if she had run a red light. (I asked him to repeat and clarify this piece of information because I had not been made aware of that being possible) The officer then stated that “even if she ran a red light. The driver of the other vehicle had the right of way because she was going straight through even if my directional arrow still showed at the time of her entry into the intersection.”

Needless to say I was stunned at the very least!

The full G licenced driver I was driving with at the time and I both asked for this to be repeated and clarified. Then we asked what I should have done in this situation… If he had an alternative solution such as that I might have hit the road sign or an alternative solution The officer told me that I should not have been turning on an amber arrow even if the arrow was green upon entering the intersection.

(16) Every driver approaching a traffic control signal showing an amber arrow indication only or in combination with another indication and facing the indication shall stop his or her vehicle if he or she can do so safely, otherwise he or she may proceed with caution to follow the direction shown by the amber arrow indication. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (16).

- It was most definitely unsafe for me to stop in front of oncoming traffic in the middle of the intersection, which is why I proceeded through with caution and was able to have a situation with minimal damage. Had I not been doing so I would have hit her vehicle on the front left side full impact speed (if I continued acceleration) or “T-Boned” her drivers side door full impact even if I simply braked. This is why I was able to brake, and steer to avoid her car when I saw her enter the intersection and which direction she was proceeding.

The officer also indicated he intended to check the timing on the lights. It was 6:33 p.m. and the turning arrows has been disabled by that point. Unless the officer went back on another date… It is not possible that he might have been able to assess the timing of the traffic lights on that particular date. I would love the chance to question him on this. We stayed and watched to see if he was able to asses it at the time.

While I don't deny the vehicle I was driving impacted her vehicle. I question the following things:
- I question her entry into the intersection while I still had an amber arrow.
- I question why hers was the only vehicle in the intersection if the facts were actually as she said and she really had a green light.
- I question the fact that I am found at fault even if she potentially ran a red light.


Well... There is my very long RANT...

Any advice or words of wisdom?

Things I have done since the accident:

-I contacted X-Coppers and enlisted them the next day.

-I found out my insurance will go from 1300/year to 3100/year through the company I intended to use for my new car. I am going with another who are keeping it just below 2500$ *groan*.

Thanks in advance,
OntarioGirl

[Fr_Chuck]

You ticket is one issue, how the insurance companies will settle is a second issue.

On the first issue, it is often very simple, go to court, plead not guilty, if there is no witness to testify against you, they can't prove your case, I doubt the other driver shows up to testify, most likely they did not even get a notice to appear. The officer did not witness anything, and the other drivers statement on the police report is not admitable ( at least in our courts) as evidence, since you can not question that witness.

So if the other driver is not there ( and heck most likely even the officer will not be there) you plead not guilty, tell the officer you entered on green, and they ran their light and hit you. They can not find you guilty.

Now even if you are found not guilty on the ticket your insurance can still settle and determine you at fault from the police report, you have no control over that sadly.


** note, don't try and get this technical in court normally, just say I entered into the intercestion on a green light. I have seen more people try to be Perry Masson who actually would not have gotten a fine but talk thierself into a larger fine somehow.

Have the info, present it if needed, but normally it is not needed

[OntarioGirl]

You ticket is one issue, how the insurance companies will settle is a second issue.

On the first issue, it is often very simple, go to court, plead not guilty, if there is no witness to testify against you, they can't prove your case, I doubt the other driver shows up to testify, most likely they did not even get a notice to appear. The officer did not witness anything, and the other drivers statement on the police report is not admitable ( at least in our courts) as evidence, since you can not question that witness.

So if the other driver is not there ( and heck most likely even the officer will not be there) you plead not guilty, tell the officer you entered on green, and they ran thier light and hit you. They can not find you guilty.

Now even if you are found not guilty on the ticket your insurance can still settle and determine you at fault from the police report, you have no control over that sadly.


** note, don't try and get this technical in court normally, just say I entered into the intercestion on a green light. I have seen more people try to be Perry Masson who actually would not have gotten a fine but talk thierself into a larger fine somehow.

have the info, present it if needed, but normally it is not needed

I looked it all up when I got home because I was a bit dumbfounded that the officer said that even if she ran a red light it was still my fault. I included the technical aspects so that I could get accurate info.

The insurance companies have deemed it a partial fault which in truth makes no difference to rates compared to a full fault (just so anyone reading this realizes that a partial fault and full fault determination are essentially the same except in the amount of deductable that you end up paying for a claim). [I have done a lot of research on that.]

I appareciate you having taken the time to respond. I will keep in mind to be careful about getting technical. Thank you.

OntarioGirl

[Fr_Chuck]

Ok I can only go by US and specificly Georgia state law, which is what I was trained in.

I did a lot of accident investigation in GA and testified for police and testified a few times against the police as a expert witness for the victimm.

Often officers use the wrong code violation when they write you a ticket,

What we call a improper left or right turn, can not be done at a traffic light, but would only be done at a non marked intersection, because oncomming traffic always have the right of way. So without a signal light, any accident happening while you were turning, is normally your fault.

At a light, the determination has to be who has the "right of way" and at least in GA I could have argued that an improper turn would not have been the right charge, since there are specific laws regarding obeying a traffic control device

Again where I worked at, if the light is still green when you enter the intersection ( that means cross that yellow or white line at the intesection)
If that light is turning yellow before your car reaches that line, you are suppose to stop, you really can't, no one does, but you are suppose to stop.

Next the car getting a green light is not suppose to enter that intersection even with a green light until they can do so safely.

It sounds like they ran the light, and hit you, but because the other person lied, and you were a new driver, the officer assumed you had to be at fault.
When two people tell the a different story, the officer at least in GA, ticket both people and let the court figure it out, or ticket no one and let it be a civil matter for insurance companies to fight out.

At least where I come from the officer took someone's word without enough facts unless he has a witness that is not connected with either parties, another driver who witnessed it.

[OntarioGirl]

Thank you! That is exactly as I thought the information to be and how the situation should have been.

Unless someone came forward after the office had made his determination there was no person willing to stay and be a witness.

Interestingly enough the police department is still holding up the accident report but that in it's self becomes an entirely different issue.

I have filed the paperwork to have this go to court and am waiting for a notice of trial which is taking anunusual amount of time as well.

There seem to be a lot of strange things about the way it was handled at the time, and since.

It was the "right of way" issue I was looking at with this. Your GA law appears to be the same as Ontario law.

All I can hope is that someone came forward after and backed up my side and that is why it has been held up.

As for the officer taking someone's word without enough facts... There is enough information out there on the officer to have found out there have been similar things in the past but I know bringing that up might cause more problems then they would help. That is for my legal reps to bring up.

Thanks again,

OntarioGirl