[sndbay]

But like a small child, Israel had no idea what "love" meant, so had to be told item by item what should and should not be done.

Don't kick your brother.
Don't spit on your sister.
Don't keep tapping Mother's shoulder in order to say something.
Don't sass your father.

Would you agree that it is direction and discipline in what to love? I trust they had knowledge of love but had to direct discipline in what to love. The same holds true today.

[Wondergirl]

Would you agree that it is direction and discipline in what to love? I trust they had knowledge of love but had to direct discipline in what to love. The same holds true today.

They were told specifically what NOT to do with the hope that they would conform to that and thus learn the opposite. That is, once they had learned NO, the opposite would be YES. Don't spit on your brother would then come to mean "you love and respect your brother by being nice to him when you don't spit on him (or kick him or slap him or break his toys)" or "when you DON'T tease or force your girlfriend into having sex, you thereby show her you love and respect her."

No, I do not think they had knowledge of love until learning the NO part hopefully caused them to see the opposite, the YES.

If you have a child, you will understand.

[lambsev]

According to Luke 16, the story the rich man and Lazarus, we do need the law to lead us to Christ. As children of christian parents we should and ought to have the commandments explained to us. Others like myself who are born again as adults usually have learned the law from many painful mistakes, mistakes we might have avoided by the knowledge of the 10 Commandments and even the law. Nonetheless, I wonder sometimes why we don't all "get it" that God is love just from the evidence of His craetion...

[Wondergirl]

Others like myself who are born again as adults usually have learned the law from many painful mistakes, mistakes we might have avoided by the knowledge of the 10 Commandments and even the law.

Even knowledge of the Commandments doesn't allow us to avoid making mistakes. We wake up each morning with a clean slate, and that slate becomes dirty within an hour (I'm being generous) after we get out of bed.

Nonetheless, I wonder sometimes why we don't all "get it" that God is love just from the evidence of His craetion...

God's creation is full of animals killing other animals, avalanches sliding down onto helpless creatures and killing them, mudslides, earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes, man killing man or otherwise hurting him, car and other transportation accidents, vegetation falls and dies, weeds grow in gardens... should I go on? What's to "get"? Like the hymn "The World Is Very Evil" by Bernard of Morlas, 12th century, there's death and destruction everywhere we look.

[sndbay]

Even knowledge of the Commandments doesn't allow us to avoid making mistakes. We wake up each morning with a clean slate, and that slate becomes dirty within an hour (I'm being generous) after we get out of bed.

Eph 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
Eph 4:21-22 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

[galveston]

The ONE subject that the Apostle Paul dealt with in his letter to the Galatians was about Law keeping.

A careful, thoughtful reading of that letter will clear up this whole issue and give a definitive answer to the OP.

[lambsev]

Eph 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
Eph 4:21-22 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

I pray we all have "good success" in this. As the Lord told Joshua:

Joshua 1:7-9 (King James Version)

7 Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper withersoever thou goest.

8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

9 Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the LORD thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest.

[lambsev]

The ONE subject that the Apostle Paul dealt with in his letter to the Galatians was about Law keeping.

A careful, thoughtful reading of that letter will clear up this whole issue and give a definitive answer to the OP.

True! And back it up by studying Romans and Hebrews. The quote from Habakkuk 2:4 "Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith" appears in Galatians, Romans and Hebrews!! :D

[Wondergirl]

Amos would be much more appropriate.

"He has showed you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?" Micah 6:8

[lambsev]

Amos would be much more appropriate.

Why Amos?

[Wondergirl]

Why Amos?

Deed triumphs over creed.

[lambsev]

Deed triumphs over creed.

Creed? Or faith?

Deeds without faith are filthy rags:

Isaiah 64:6
For we have all become like one who is unclean [ceremonially, like a leper], and all our righteousness (our best deeds of rightness and justice) is like filthy rags or a polluted garment; we all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away [far from God's favor, hurrying us toward destruction].

Faith must lead, and works follow.

[Wondergirl]

Deeds without faith are filthy rags: Isaiah 64:6

What's "faith" without deeds?

All I've seen here is creed.

[lambsev]

What's "faith" without deeds?

All I've seen here is creed.

So is what you are saying this: that this discussion is not of faith? Then it is sin according to Romans 14:23c "...for whatsoever is not of faith is sin." If this is so perhaps you should refrain from the discussion.

The dictionary yielded these definitions of creed:

1 : a brief authoritative formula of religious belief
2 : a set of fundamental beliefs; also : a guiding principle

Perhaps you should define deeds for us.

[arcura]

Faith without deeds (works) is dead so the bible says.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sndbay]

I pray we all have "good success" in this. As the Lord told Joshua:

Joshua 1:7-9 (King James Version)

7 Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper withersoever thou goest.

8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

9 Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the LORD thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest.

Putting on the new man to follow Christ in righteousness is exampled in Luke. But before you review the parables of Luke, what we have to acknowledge is that once you have put on the new man which would be unity unto Christ, there is no double minded, or sinful nature. Everything written concerning the new creature or new man says the old passes away. That is what it meant to dead with Christ. (2 Cor 5:17 Eph 2:15 Eph 4:24 Col 3:10) Thus you leave the law or schoolmaster because the law is written in your heart (Isa 51:7), you have a good conscience toward God. Buried then in baptism able to raise as Christ did.

Reference Luke: The new!

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

This is the old nature of man, the ones not willing to follow in righteousness. The sinful nature that does not please God. If you remain as the old man then you are a sinner Review--> (1 John 3)Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us,

Luke 5:36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.

Luke 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.

Christ set us free, we are no longer in bondage to sin. Christ is the completeness and our rest. We only need to follow HIM, and that means in HIs footsteps. This is all written and the truth sancified us.

John 17: 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Belieiving in Christ, and having the spirit to walk in righteousness, where Christ dwells in you. If one does not believe this, one does not believe in HIS worthinesss.
~behold the glory in Christ

[arcura]

Regardless...
We who put on Christ are still human and therefore sinful.
Not one of us is completely free from sin for we still sin.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Wondergirl]

So is what you are saying this: that this discussion is not of faith?

Correct. I'm saying too often the conversation with the non-Christian is all about creed -- what does the non-Christian believe and "Believe what I believe" -- when, in fact, that should be the LEAST worry by a Christian at that point. Deed, not creed, is the important connection.

[Wondergirl]

once you have put on the new man which would be unity unto Christ, there is no double minded, or sinful nature.

But that doesn't happen in this life. We never escape our sinfulness.

[sndbay]

Regardless...
We who put on Christ are still human and therefore sinful.
Not one of us is completely free from sin for we still sin.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Those that do not believe in the worthiness of HIS blood remain under the law. 1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.


~in Christ