[sabrewolfe]

God does not exist within our timeline, true. He is ageless and timeless. But God created the heavens and the earth and it's inhabitants to exist within a timeline. So how could God know it's future? Better yet, why would he want to?
God is not as complex as everyone thinks he is. Were we not created in his image? That goes beyond physical capacities.
What benefit would it be to God to create something only to know it's every move and it's destiny?
God created man for man to WANT to follow him, not because it is pre-destined that he does so.
God relinquished man's destiny to man alone, from the very beginning.
When we try to make God out to be too complex, we lose further understanding of him.

[arcura]

sabrewolfe,
I believe that God is far more complex than we think He is.
The attributes and abilities of God are far more than we mortals can understand.
God the Father and the Holy Ghost are spirits with the knowledge and power to create this very vast universe and life within it. Do you think there is anyone here who can fully contemplate that humungous ability?
I think not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[elscarta]

Hi elscarta,

I still see an inherent problem if we are prepared to accept determinism and free will at the same time.

Consider this paradox:

I can remember the past, but if I could remember the future as well then that would demonstrate I can control the future. What it also shows is that I don't have free will.

For example, In the future I know that I went on a quiz show and I had a choice of two doors. Behind the first door was a million dollars, behind the second door was nothing. I chose the first door and dramatically changed my life and the lives of other people.

If I decided that I am going to exercise my free will I might deliberately and foolishly choose the wrong door. To do so would negate determinism.

In this world free will and determinism are incompatible.

Tut, God is the one who can remember the future not us!

The way I see it our future, for God, is predetermined by our future selves.

Let me try to explain this using your example.

In the future you are on a quiz show and are asked to choose one of the two doors. You have free will so you could choose either of the two doors. Now at the moment you don't know which door you will choose and in fact until the instant that you choose you still don't know for certain which door you would choose (you may have made a decision about which door you would choose but you could still change your mind in that last instant). Eventually there is a moment when your future self will make that decision, using free will.

Now God can see the future as well as he can see the past so he can see your future self making that decision and so knows the decision that you freely choose to make.

Furthermore free will provides for the possibility of different choices not the necessity of making those different choices.

[elscarta]

God does not exist within our timeline, true. He is ageless and timeless. But God created the heavens and the earth and it's inhabitants to exist within a timeline. So how could God know it's future?

Sabrewolfe, someone once used the following analogy to explain how God can exist outside of our timeline and yet see all of our timeline.

Imagine that our timeline is a filmstrip. Each instant in time is a frame of the film strip. Each frame of the filmstrip is determined by what happens/happened in the previous frame.

We are currently in one of the frames in the middle of the filmstrip. We can see the previous frames (our past) but cannot see the next frames (our future) but God is outside looking at the whole filmstrip. He sees every frame; the past frames, the present frame and the future frames are all the same to him!

Note that no frame is predetermined by God since he allows us free will and yet he knows everything that has happened/will happen.

What benefit would it be to God to create something only to know it's every move and it's destiny?
God created man for man to WANT to follow him, not because it is pre-destined that he does so.
God relinquished man's destiny to man alone, from the very beginning.

Your logic is faulty since you admit to God being ageless and timeless and not in our timeline yet suggest that God should not know what is going to happen in our timeline. This means that God needs to wait for our timeline to finish in order to see if man chooses to follow him which implies that he is in our timeline!

[sabrewolfe]

sabrewolfe,
I believe that God is far more complex than we think He is.
The attributes and abilities of God are far more than we mortals can understand.
God the Father and the Holy Ghost are spirits with the knowledge and power to create this very vast universe and life within it. Do you think there is anyone here who can fully contemplate that humungous ability?
I think not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Acura, I'm not saying that God is not more complex than we think He is. I didn't mean that to be taken out of context. What I was trying to explain is that He is not so complex as to be beyond our understanding of why and He does things. Through His word, through science, through nature and common sense, His reasoning is easier to understand if we would pay more attention instead of assuming something that has no bearing on our reach of comprehension. It is for that same reason that Jesus taught with parables and analogies relating to common situations during His earthly existence.

[sabrewolfe]

Sabrewolfe, someone once used the following analogy to explain how God can exist outside of our timeline and yet see all of our timeline.

Imagine that our timeline is a filmstrip. Each instant in time is a frame of the film strip. Each frame of the filmstrip is determined by what happens/happened in the previous frame.

We are currently in one of the frames in the middle of the filmstrip. We can see the previous frames (our past) but cannot see the next frames (our future) but God is outside looking at the whole filmstrip. He sees every frame; the past frames, the present frame and the future frames are all the same to him!

Note that no frame is predetermined by God since he allows us free will and yet he knows everything that has happened/will happen.

There is a very huge flaw within your analogy. Each frame of the film strip cannot be viewed until it is filmed.

[TUT317]

There is a very huge flaw within your analogy. Each frame of the film strip cannot be viewed until it is filmed.

[QUOTE=elscarta; Note that no frame is predetermined by God since he allows us free will and yet he knows everything that has happened/will happen.


Hello elscarta,

Yes, isn't your analogy a tautology, i.e.. A v ~A

[TUT317]

Hello again elscarta,

On second thought you could say that there are two different types of determinism. The one we are familiar with and the one that exists outside of time and space. This would make them distinct entities. This outcome would create a new problem of identity.

Tut

[arcura]

TUT317,
I think that everything is possible with God as He chooses.
AND that His identity is where ever and whenever He so wishes.
Fred

[TUT317]

Hello Fred,

What you are asking is that does God have to uphold the laws of physics and logic?
I would say that he has to. The laws of physics and logic have applied in the past and probably will apply in the future.

This is reflected in the unchanging nature of God. In other words, God does not make it up as he goes along.

[sabrewolfe]

Hello Fred,

What you are asking is that does God have to uphold the laws of physics and logic?
I would say that he has to. The laws of physics and logic have applied in the past and probably will apply in the future.

This is reflected in the unchanging nature of God. In other words, God does not make it up as he goes along.

Exactly.

[elscarta]

There is a very huge flaw within your analogy. Each frame of the film strip cannot be viewed until it is filmed.

That is correct if you are in the timeline! But God is outside the timeline. This means that God does not have to wait for time to pass to see the future.

If you insist that time needs to pass before God can see the future then you are saying that God is in the timeline.

Here is another way of looking at it. I am currently 42 years old and let us suppose that I will die when I am 100. Now imagine God is currently in the timeline with me and steps out of the timeline. How long will it take God to get to the point in time when I die?

Being outside the timeline he instantly is there even though it takes me another 58 years to get there in the timeline. Now since he is outside the timeline he can step back in the timeline anywhere so lets imagine him stepping back in the same instant he originally stepped out. For God the next 58 years have already happened since he has already been at my death in that instant that he left the timeline but for me they are still to happen!

[TUT317]

Hi elscarta,

My earlier posting was a bit vague in relation to the problems I see with the film strip analogy. I will attempt to be a bit more precise.

Firstly, when we are talking about the film strip we are of course talking about only one piece of film.

For us the frames exist the past and present. Frames do extend into the future but we can't see what is on them. The point is that there is some future event on them, but as far as humans are concerned, for all intention purposes the film ends at the present. From our point of view we are yet to be photographed in the future. From God's point of view the future has been photographed.

I would argue that the film strip stops at the present or it doesn't. We can't have it both ways. In other words, we can't say that the future is there and not there at the same time. I don't think saying that it all depends on A POINT OF VIEW solves the problem. In other words, when we come to examine this strip in terms of identity we will run into all sorts of logical problems.

[sabrewolfe]

That is correct if you are in the timeline! But God is outside the timeline. This means that God does not have to wait for time to pass to see the future.

If you insist that time needs to pass before God can see the future then you are saying that God is in the timeline.

Here is another way of looking at it. I am currently 42 years old and let us suppose that I will die when I am 100. Now imagine God is currently in the timeline with me and steps out of the timeline. How long will it take God to get to the point in time when I die?

Being outside the timeline he instantly is there even though it takes me another 58 years to get there in the timeline. Now since he is outside the timeline he can step back in the timeline anywhere so lets imagine him stepping back in the same instant he originally stepped out. For God the next 58 years have already happened since he has already been at my death in that instant that he left the timeline but for me they are still to happen!

As it takes you 58 years to get there, it also does for God. God does not jump into the future. The difference in time between man and God, is that He is eternal, meaning, He always was and always will be. He does not exist in an aging timeline. For Him, what is a million years to us is but a second to Him. That's the only difference. The scale of observation. God cannot jump into a future that is not here yet. What has not happened, does not exist, until it has happened.
The bible says that God created the heavens and the earth in seven days, even though each day to Him could have been a million years to us. But even still, it took Him time to do so.

[sabrewolfe]

Acura,
I would like to get back to the original purpose of your thread of the devils influence in the world. What are some of the more deceptive ways do you see him influencing mankind in these current days?

[arcura]

I think that the devil does work in mysterious ways and some of them are through temptation.
Temptation causes we human much grief in many ways such as greed, avarice, gluttony, gelousey, hate, confusion, anger, lust. And more.
Fred