[NeedKarma]

The love of money (greed) has caused many banks and huge institutions to go broke putting many people out of their homes and millions of people out of work.

It's the greed of the individuals that is to blame fred.

[sndbay]

I agree with all you said about faith and the Shroud, but I disagree that money is the root of all evil. It is actually the LOVE of money that is the root of all evil. Money itself is innocuous.

Agree it is the love of money, that many (reach after or desire), causing the err from faith. A desire within the heart of man whether money, or love of things of this world, we are told that it all causes man to err from the love of our Father.

1 Timothy 6:10-11 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

[arcura]

NeedKarma,
If you read again what I said you'll note that I said that greed was involved in that.
That the love of money is greed.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[I Newton]

A bearded man came to my door yesterday; it must have been Jesus.

I mean, he had hair and so did Jesus and he had a beard, so it must have been Jesus.

I even had Jesus appear to ne in my porridge one morning.

It certainly looked like an outline of a man's heard that had a beard, so it must have been him.

Mmm

[jmjoseph]

A bearded man came to my door yesterday; it must have been Jesus.

I mean, he had hair and so did Jesus and he had a beard, so it must have been Jesus.

I even had Jesus appear to ne in my porridge one morning.

It certainly looked like an outline of a man's heard that had a beard, so it must have been him.

Mmm

So what's your point?

Are doubting that Jesus even existed?

Is this sarcastic mockery?

This thread is about the validity of the Shroud Of Turin.

It's not about visitors or breakfast.

[arcura]

jmjoseph,
I think that I Newton was just trying to be funny. I thought that he was so.
Actually If I look I can see something of Jesus in many different people.
It's what one looks for.
Looking for the good can be enlightening and in some cases difficult.
The same for looking for the bad.
If one watches or listens to or reads today's media it is easy to see the bad and often difficult to see the good.
For that one must look elsewhere.
I look here as one place to see much good work going on.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[I Newton]

My point is it is embarrassing how christians see a cloud that could be seen to look like an outline of a bearded figure and it has to be Jesus..

Same with the shroud, it may well have the figure of a bearded man and so it HAS to be Jesus.

No wonder Atheists laugh at Christians.

[artlady]

It is so strange that I just watched a documentary this evening on line about the shroud and the new evidence.
I found it very compelling and convincing.I think its wonderful!
Here is a link to the site if anyone is interested.
Follow the instructions on site for viewing.
NinjaVideo.net

[arcura]

I Newton,
The image on the Shroud of Turin is MUCH MORE than just the image of a man.
It is a 3D image of a man crucified as was Jesus with all the whip marks of a Roman whipping tool and the mark of a spear thrust in his side.
The coins that were placed over the man's eyes bear the image of the coins struck for Pontius Pilate.
In addition to that the shroud contains seed and pollen from the land of Israel and images of herbs from there.
The fabric is of the type and weave used way back 2000 years ago.
As you can understand from that and much more about it you can see why so many people, including scientists, who believe it is the shroud that Jesus was buried in.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[I Newton]

I understand how people who want to believe, believe.

I do not trust what scientists say because another scientists usually says the exact opposite.

If and when all scientists agree on a particular matter, do I take any stock in any matter.

Let's say the shroud is real and let's say it was the one used for Jesus, (puting aside the pagan ritual of coins over the eyes, which would not have been done.) what benefir is it?

It will only take peole's focus away from worshiping God in truth and in spirit and will encourage them to worship what they see.

Churches encourages people to use statues and pictures and relics and icons to supposedly help people focus on God when the God of the Bible does not want such things.

People will chase after something that has no benefit, it does not teach, it does not show love, it does nothing but cause division between believers and non-believers.

The Bible tells us how his followers would be known, by their love for others, not by skulls, shrouds, statues, dancing, rock music, money, bells, lead lighting, cloaks and speaking in tongues.

If people read the BIble instead of wasting their time doing what religion tells them to do, they would see the truth and the truth would set them free.

In short, it (the shroud) is just a waste of time that helps no one.

[arcura]

I Newton,
Sorry, but I MUST this agree.
The placing of coins over the eyes to keep them shut has been going on for many centuries.
Many coins you can buy today come from graves of individuals in many lands including Israel.
Ask any professional archeologist.
Many Churches use statues, pictures, etc to help people focus their prays to God. There is nothing wrong with that. It all started with Solomon's temple as built under the direction of God.
Your dislike of churches is clouding you mind with negativity.
Jesus started The Church for we people. I go along with what Jesus did and said.
As far as then shroud is concerned you can believe as you wish and I with millions of other Christian will believe it IS the cloth that Jesus was buried in and no harm is dome with that.
The evidence that that is the case is overwhelming whether you accept it or not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[I Newton]

The coins over the eys have absolutely nothing to do with keeping the eyes closed, but to pay for a safe passage to the other side.

This is something Jesus would never allow.

You can bow to statues if you want, no one is stopping you, I can only tell you what the Bible teaches.

Philosophy can prove anythng.
Enemies of God can say that because God is infiniely powerful and can d anything, he CAN lie, and because he says he cannot, he is obviously lying.

So with philosophy you can prove God a liar.

I do not hold much stock in philosophical arguments about what God accepts or does not accept.

You can believe bowing to statues is acceptable to God, but that is just philosophy.

[arcura]

I Newton,
No matter what you believe...
Never the less coins were placed over Jesus dead eyes.
I never attempt to prove God to be a liar and I recent your insinuation.
You have expressed what you believe as I an others here have.
There is no need for bad insinuations.
Please have peace and kindness,
Fred