[phlanx]

Salvo Elliot

You still think that a document written 200 years ago could forsee the dangers that's its own people would inflict on themselves

They left it open so that the document was open to be added and subjected from when and where necessary

You didn't understand the Gin argument did you - The picture depicts a soceity that has fallen to the preys of alcohol and as such are now such a problem a regulation needed to be inforced for its own protection, or do you think mothers so drunk they drop their own babies in the street is a society youwish to live in?

I am astonished that you don't see the need for a level of regulation to protect its citizens from rogue traders

I really hope you do remove all regulation from business elliot, as I would be the first to export Colonel Alex's Swine Flu Cure - I woiuld make a mint in days!

[tomder55]

I really hope you do remove all regulation from business elliot, as I would be the first to export Colonel Alex's Swine Flu Cure -

That would mean that you are competing with the gvt approved snake oil .

Does the Vaccine Matter? - The Atlantic (November 2009)

[phlanx]

Salvo Tom

Hey competition is good and healthy, the product is not always of that elk :)

[Wondergirl]

the product is not always of that elk :)

elk = animal

Do you mean ilk? Or were you being funny?

[phlanx]

Salvo Wondergirl

I guess coming from the windy city you are not used to being that dry;)

[ETWolverine]

Salvo Elliot

You still think that a document written 200 years ago could forsee the dangers that's its own people would inflict on themselves

They left it open so that the document was open to be added and subjected from when and where necessary

No, I don't think they could have invisioned everything. But that is why the Founders created an Amendment system. Once an amendment is passed, it becomes as much a part of the Constitution as the parts written by the Founders.

If government, in its infinite wisdom (yes, I'm laughing as I type this) feels it necessary to change the Constitution to give them powers that they did not originally have, and if they have a compelling argument to do so, then let them Amend the Constitution legally with a 2/3 vote of both houses and every state.

If that was what the government was doing, I'd be OK with that. But that is NOT what they have done. They have simply taken on powers that are not legally theirs.

You didn't understand the Gin argument did you - The picture depicts a soceity that has fallen to the preys of alcohol and as such are now such a problem a regulation needed to be inforced for its own protection, or do you think mothers so drunk they drop their own babies in the street is a society youwish to live in?

Well, we tried prohibition and that failed. We have been taxing liquor since it was legalized again in 1933, and that hasn't prevented the abuse of alcohol. Government regulation has failed to provide an alchohol-free environment. We have some of the safest water in the world, and THAT hasn't prevented the abuse of alcohol either. In fact, I would argue that there is absolutely nothing that the government can do to prevent alchoholism, alchohold abuse, public drunkenness, and injury/damage caused by alchoholism.

I am astonished that you don't see the need for a level of regulation to protect its citizens from rogue traders

That's because you refuse to believe that people are smart enough to know a good product from a bad one.

I really hope you do remove all regulation from business elliot, as I would be the first to export Colonel Alex's Swine Flu Cure - I woiuld make a mint in days!

Yep... you would. And then you'd lose it in weeks as people figured out that your product sucks, take you to civil court to sue you for damages, and win every penny you ever earned and ever will earn.

That's the problem... you think short-term, and you assume the worst of your fellow man. You assume that the smart ones are too dishonest to deal fairly with their fellow man, and the honest ones are too stupid to know a scam when they see one. And you assume that, as one of the smart ones, you'll be able to get away with selling a bad product in the long term for a net gain.

But people aren't that dumb, most of them aren't that dishonest, and you aren't as smart as you think you are. (No offense intended... NOBODY is as smart as they think they are when they come up with a scheme to defraud others. It wasn't a personal attack against you.)

The great equalizer in such a deregulated economy would be education. THAT is where we need to start reforming society. People need to be educated to take care of themselves and not rely on government to do it for them.

Elliot

[phlanx]

Elliot

I don't think you have any appreciation of the type of people that exist in this world!

Which is surprising when you say you have worked in Israel and seen the lengths that some human beings will go to

Yes I agree that if you act stupid then stupid is what stupid does

However, I think you are being exceptionally niave if you think that people will not abuse a system that has no regulations governing

Why on earth do you think we have regulations giverning indistry in the first place - mmmm I wonder!

Why is it you can't understand history?

Why is you think people have freedom of financial choice at all times? Freedom of choice does not guarantee freedom of choice!

[ETWolverine]

Elliot

I don't think you have any appreciation of the type of people that exist in this world!

Which is surprising when you say you have worked in Israel and seen the lengths that some human beings will go to

Yes I agree that if you act stupid then stupid is what stupid does

However, I think you are being exceptionally niave if you think that people will not abuse a system that has no regulations governing

I think that it is naïve to think that the government is looking out for you.

Why on earth do you think we have regulations giverning indistry in the first place - mmmm I wonder!

I've given you the answer to that several times now... the reason for government regulation is to grant the government more power, not to make your life better. The government, quite frankly, doesn't give a crap about you or me or anyone else. The only thing that concerns government is the accumulation of power.

Why is it you can't understand history?

Why is you think people have freedom of financial choice at all times? Freedom of choice does not guarantee freedom of choice!

Actually I understand history quite well. And it is my study of history that leads me to believe that no government regulation has ever done anything to protect people... it has only managed to suppress and oppress people. This has been a common theme throughout history... the abuse of power by the government to oppress people. Exactly which part of history did you think I was misunderstanding?

As for freedom of choice, the one thing that I know for certain is that giving government more power only results in LESS freedom, including less freedom of choice. LIMITING government power may not necessarily result in greater freedom of choice, but it at least makes it POSSIBLE, whereas increasing government power ALWAYS does the opposite.

Elliot

[phlanx]

I think you have no idea what I am arguing about, where do I say I expected the government to look out for me

You are putting words in my mouth again!

I've given you the answer to that several times now... the reason for government regulation is to grant the government more power, not to make your life better. The government, quite frankly, doesn't give a crap about you or me or anyone else. The only thing that concerns government is the accumulation of power.

Now it is just funny - You think the government doesn't care about me yet you think businesses do - wow, how naïve can you get!

FREEDOM OF FINANCIAL CHOICE IS NOT FREEDOM OF CHOICE!

I am not referring to the regulations placed primarily by government but industry to - all of which means the product you buy doesn't contain some hidden chemical that is bad for you (as an example)

LIKE Lead in yellow Paint

The toy doesn't conatin anything sharp like Needles!

The drink doesn't contain chemicals that were introduced after it left the factory

The list is endless, I think it laughable you think you could make an educated guess and it would be a guess from a list of products that were manaufactured with no regulations

Yo surely cannot be as naïve as all that!

In addition, if everybody followed your example then who in hell would buy the product - assuming you are never the first person who buys first but waits to find out what the rest of the consumers thought - so WHO would buy the product under your regime?

I also want to bring us back to what makes you think regulations are government doing - it just isn't as simple as that!

[ETWolverine]

I think you have no idea what I am arguing about, where do I say I expected the government to look out for me

You are putting words in my mouth again!

Not really. You are the one insisting that government regulation is there for the benefit of the public. I make no such assumption. In fact, I know it to be a falsehood, based on historical data.

Now it is just funny - You think the government doesn't care about me yet you think businesses do - wow, how naïve can you get!

As I have said before, it doesn't matter is businesses are looking out for me. In fact, I am ASSUMING THAT THEY ARE NOT. In fact, I am assuming that the only person looking out for my interests is ME.

Caveat emptor. Let the buyer beware.

But that takes education, and it takes a government that forces businesses to do one thing and one thing only... label their products honestly. NO OTHER REGULATION IS NEEDED.

Elliot

[phlanx]

Elliot

First of all, I had to write the cheques for my suppliers today, so please excuse me if I have come across to strong, I always get very annoyed with everything on the 1st of the month -kids are in bed and I have just had wee nip and feeling a lot more relaxed with the world!!

What I have been arguing against is your insistence that regulation in any form is bad, what you have been arguing against is you think I think all regulation is good

I actually think it is somewhere between

There is a clear reaon why rules and regulations exist in today's world

This need has arisen out of case after case of bad business and/or criminal activity that I believe the system is now at such a point that it is trying to avoid future bad cases and/or criminal activity

Of course this is an impossible task, and I agree with you that Governments should limit what they govern

However, in the land of marketing, you really need to check up what Honesty means - this is a decriptive word, and what one persons thinks is dishonest, another does not

Look, we both have the same idea of the world, screw or be screwed!

It is how we see other people that makes a huge difference, you see as you say, are only interested in you, I am on the otherhand have too much empathy for mankind to watch it continue in a society that thinks that today has no tomorrow, or freedom of choice is not freedom of choice for all in an unfair system

This does make me a socialist in anyway, I believe like you do, if we want something then we have to work for it

If we want to understand something we can sit down a read a book or two

But what makes you think that everybody in this world can do that?

I look out for a mate, he isn't the sharpest tool in the box but has the biggest heart, it just is how god made him, or he was dropped - can't decide which

He would not be able to make a wise choice if it landed in his lap, but as many people in his life have criticised him about his choices, it took me years for him to understand that when I gave him advice or explain something to him, he could always go and make the wrong mistake and I wuouldnt judge him for it, I would still take the mick, but that his choices are his to make, this has given him confort.

So now with him able to ask me questions and find out what is what and understand, he can make some of the right choices

This as you say is education, and we both agree on that issue

However, what happens to these people if there aren't people like myself looking out for them - should I allow them to live in a society that doesn't care

That's is the cornerstone of why I argue with so much matey, we have two opoosing views on life, you say the stupid should be educated and I never underestimate the stupidty of mankind

[ETWolverine]

Elliot

First of all, I had to write the cheques for my suppliers today, so please excuse me if I have come across to strong, I always get very annoyed with everything on the 1st of the month -kids are in bed and I have just had wee nip and feeling alot more relaxed with the world!!!!!

What I have been arguing against is your insistance that regulation in any form is bad, what you have been arguing against is you think I think all regulation is good

I actually think it is somewhere inbetween

There is a clear reaon why rules and regulations exist in todays world

This need has arisen out of case after case of bad business and/or criminal activity that I believe the system is now at such a point that it is trying to avoid future bad cases and/or criminal activity

Of course this is an impossible task, and I agree with you that Governments should limit what they govern

However, in the land of marketing, you really need to check up what Honesty means - this is a decriptive word, and what one persons thinks is dishonest, another does not

Look, we both have the same idea of the world, screw or be screwed!

It is how we see other people that makes a huge difference, you see as you say, are only interested in you, I am on the otherhand have too much empathy for mankind to watch it continue in a society that thinks that today has no tomorrow, or freedom of choice is not freedom of choice for all in an unfair system

This does make me a socialist in anyway, I believe like you do, if we want something then we have to work for it

If we want to understand something we can sit down a read a book or two

But what makes you think that everybody in this world can do that?

I look out for a mate, he isnt the sharpest tool in the box but has the biggest heart, it just is how god made him, or he was dropped - can't decide which

He would not be able to make a wise choice if it landed in his lap, but as many people in his life have critised him about his choices, it took me years for him to understand that when I gave him advice or explain something to him, he could always go and make the wrong mistake and I wuouldnt judge him for it, I would still take the mick, but that his choices are his to make, this has given him confort.

So now with him able to ask me questions and find out what is what and understand, he can make some of the right choices

This as you say is education, and we both agree on that issue

However, what happens to these people if there arent people like myself looking out for them - should I allow them to live in a society that doesnt care

Thats is the cornerstone of why I argue with so much matey, we have two opoosing views on life, you say the stupid shoudl be educated and I never underestimate the stupidty of mankind

I think the last paragraph is the one that shows the difference between our philosophies.

I have worked with mentally challenged, Downs Syndrome, and other developmentally challenged children and adults. One thing that I have learned is that NOBODY is too stupid to learn. Some of the best decision-makers I have ever met were mentally challenged in some form or other... but they learned a METHOD for making decisions for themselves and they practiced it. Sometimes they made the wrong decisions, but they learned from those errors and didn't make them the second time.

I am fairly sure that your friend with the "simple" outlook on life that you claim "would not be able to make a wise choice if it landed in his lap" can learn to make decisions for himself just fine. It may take making bad choices and then dealing with the consequences of those choices in order for him to learn... but he can do it.

I believe that given the right education (and that means different things for different people) all of us can make good decisions for ourselves, and we don't need the government to do it for us. You believe that there are people who need protection because they are too stupid to learn. I disagree with that assumption based on my own experience.

BTW, just because other people think that your friend's decisions are bad ones doesn't mean that they aren't the best, most logical, most beneficial decisions for him. Your friend may have a different set of goals than others have, and therefore his decisions may be the ones most beneficial for his goals EVEN IF NOBODY ELSE SEES IT. Don't automatically assume that just because you would make a different decision that his decision is wrong.

I just don't buy the argument that people are too dumb to know what they want and what decisions to make to get it.

Elliot

[speechlesstx]

More government insanity, Arizona Church Ordered to Stop Feeding Homeless.

A judge ordered a Phoenix church to stop feeding the homeless on its property, citing zoning violation.
Related

Retired Arizona Supreme Court Justice Robert Corcoran ruled in early November that CrossRoads United Methodist Church in north Phoenix was functioning as a charity dining hall in a residential neighborhood...

The church has a 50-year history of feeding the homeless and caring for the poor in the community.

Granted, it wasn't just the judge who was a Scrooge but the community itself complained of having to deal with the homeless. No good deed goes unpunished in this country any more, just ask the boy scout who picked up trash in Allentown, Pa or the volunteer firefighters in Baraboo, WI who built sandbag barricades to protect Baraboo from record flooding. Isn't it a bit of a mixed message though for the president to call on us to "feed a neighbor" while the state is banning churches from feeding the hungry?

[NeedKarma]

More government insanity, Arizona Church Ordered to Stop Feeding Homeless.

It never would have received any attention from a judge if the members of the community themselves weren't the cause of the action:

But it was the very members of the community that raised concern about the church’s feeding ministry. Some residents complained about the homeless people wandering around the neighborhood, bringing trash to the area and cited fear of increased crime due to their presence.
“They broke into electric boxes and had their bikes and things chained up to fences, and set up camp right in our back yard,” said Talitha Cerino, who lives nearby, to the ABC News station in Phoenix.
“I don’t necessarily know that I would want to be walking down Central on a Saturday morning to see a parade of homeless individuals riding their bikes to get to their free meal in the morning,” Cerino said.

So it has nothing to do with government insanity.

[excon]

Isn't it a bit of a mixed message though for the president to call on us to "feed a neighbor" while the state is banning churches from feeding the hungry?

Hello again, Steve:

Sure it is. But, since when did the Evangelical Christian community start listening to Obama? Seems like they take their marching orders from the likes of Pat Robertson.

Plus, as you pointed out, the DIS was the loving Christians complaining about the homeless people in their neighborhood... It has nothing to do with Obama. It has to do with Christians NOT acting Christianlike.

excon

PS> You're really not blaming Obama for an Arizona court ruling, are you?? Really?? Is he also responsible for your bathroom stink after you use it?

[speechlesstx]

It never would have received any attention from a judge if the members of the community themselves weren't the cause of the action:

Is there an echo in here? I said, Granted, it wasn't just the judge who was a Scrooge but the community itself complained of having to deal with the homeless.

So it has nothing to do with government insanity.

You must have missed this, too: Retired Arizona Supreme Court Justice Robert Corcoran ruled in early November that CrossRoads United Methodist Church in north Phoenix was functioning as a charity dining hall in a residential neighborhood.

And then there was this from the article, The judge’s ruling is effective immediately and affects all Phoenix churches with residential zoning. There are at least 20 other Phoenix churches that provide food to the homeless and poor as part of their worship programs.

A judge ruling that all churches in areas zoned as residential can't feed the homeless has everything to do with government insanity. The ruling can only be supported by zoning ordinances, not a resident's complaint about homeless people.

[inthebox]

Christians listen to God and His word in the bible. Matthew 25:40 here. Hoo raa for this church and those that feed the poor and homeless.

I did not read in the article, what religious denomination [s] , if any, of those in the community that complained?


G&P

[speechlesstx]

Sure it is. But, since when did the Evangelical Christian community start listening to Obama? Seems like they take their marching orders from the likes of Pat Robertson.

I doubt there are a lot of Methodists that take marching orders from Pat Robertson.

Plus, as you pointed out, the DIS was the loving Christians complaining about the homeless people in their neighborhood...

I didn't point out any such thing, I have no idea whether this community's residents are "loving Christians" or any other kind of Christian.

It has nothing to do with Obama. It has to do with Christians NOT acting Christianlike.

I guess you missed that juxtaposition between Obama's call and the state's action here. I implied it was a mixed message - isn't it?

PS> You're really not blaming Obama for an Arizona court ruling, are you?? Really?? Is he also responsible for your bathroom stink after you use it?

Again, you miss the point - willfully or not. I tend to think willfully.

[speechlesstx]

Right, itb, there is no mention of who these community members are, what their religious affiliation - if any - may be. For all we know it could be a good, compassionate liberal neighborhood.

[NeedKarma]

For all we know it could be a good, compassionate liberal neighborhood.

What a sad sad man you are indeed to harbour so much hatred for 50% of your fellow citizens.