[tomder55]

The Founders were clear about the role of government .

“In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself.” –James Madison, Federalist No. 51

That is why the founders made the powers of the national government few and enumerated in the constitution. The rest of the governing authority rests in state and local authority through the will of the people.

[phlanx]

It was alos the founders who decided that the old way of doing things was not working about for them

So the decided to change things

Of course things can always be changed in the future, I just hope that when change does occur it is done by peaceful means and not war

[ETWolverine]

So if everybody agrees that there should be a government, what in the giblets should it do?

Haven't I answered this enough times already.

Government is there to
1) maintain a physical infrastructure for the country... roads, bridges, tunnels, highways, and a mail service,
2) maintain a military and police force to protect the nation from enemies both foreign and domestic, and
3) create and maintain an economic environement that is conducive to the production of goods and services, the selling of those goods and services, and the accumulation of wealth.

I ask I am very confused by peoples comments on what a government is there for?

Why? It's actually very simple.

If people say to provide representation - for what? according to some they don't need any representation - as they choose 100% market over any political system

Exactly 100% true. We really don't need representation if the government is simply sticking to those three requirements only. However, they don't stick to those three mandates, and if the government is going to tax us... and they do... then we require representation with regard to how those taxes are spent.

Elliot

[tomder55]

Of course things can always be changed in the future,

They also made provisions for change.It is through the amendment process. It has happened 27 times in our brief history .

My biggest beef is that too often the process is bypassed. That is the most quick way to erode the firewalls built into our system.

[ETWolverine]

Salvo Ex,

So what you state with your very appreciated simple answer is this

Whether left or right it is the governments responsibility to raise revenue to assist in the building of an organisation

If that is true then so is this

It is the governments duty to tax its people

It is the governments duty to provide its people with protection

Now if as you say your are a righty, then that is it - nomore intervention, asistance, or influence of any kind

Then tell me my american freind, if the amount of money raised my taxes is dependant on the market, which is ultimatly dependant on what the dollar is worth

Who influences the worth of the dollar?

Actually, that's NOT what excon said. Excon was trying to give a pithy response that he knows is inaccurate. He said nothing about raising money. He talked about making war vs. looking out for people, and assumed that one was the purview of the right, and the other was the purview of the left.

In actuality, however, the right both PREVENTS wars when they can and FIGHTS them when needed. It also protects the rights of individuals. The left neither prevents wars nor fights them and their domestic policies eliminate the right of free choice of individuals and create an under-class of slaves that are beholden to the government for all their needs while growing the power of the government over-class.

See, I can do pithy responses too. ANd mine are more accurate.

Elliot

[phlanx]

They also made provisions for change.It is through the amendment process. It has happened 27 times in our brief history .

My biggest beef is that too often the process is bypassed. That is the quickest way to erode the firewalls built into our system.

I think that your founders had the right idea for its time, the same as when rebels forced the King to sign the magna Carter, and Oliver Cromwell with his rebellion

Democracy in any form has taken along time to devolop in any country

I just find it interesting that people constantly refer backwards, as if to say, well if they didn't want it then we shouldn't have it now

In the magna carter is describes fairness and equality - this was a major step. After a few more steps, we arrive at your doorstep with equality for men

Again at this stage equality is a descriptive word

Moving forward, we still seem to have difficulty in providing equality for all men, especially in the US where it is the inequality that makes america what it is

I do not argue against captilism - I am all for it, but it is the hypocrisy that is pursued so vigoursly that I find so amusing

Nobody states that not all should go to school, as people agree all children should have a fair crack of the whip and it was that do with that that matters

However, in a system that by its very nature requires people to work low paid jobs, without which the economy would collapse, and yet they will not provide a basic health care system that will show that they are rewarded for doing the jobs that most of us do not want to do

The argument against this is simple though, Why Should I Pay for someone else's mistakes - well why should I pay for someone to not listen in school?

If the US doesn't want a healthcare system for all, because it would be unfair against those that have worked for their cover, then why not expel those children that are wasting everybodies time at school - you are paying for them to do that

[phlanx]

Actually, that's NOT what excon said. Excon was trying to give a pithy response that he knows is inaccurate. He said nothing about raising money. He talked about making war vs. looking out for people, and assumed that one was the purview of the right, and the other was the purview of the left.

In actuality, however, the right both PREVENTS wars when they can and FIGHTS them when needed. It also protects the rights of individuals. The left neither prevents wars nor fights them and their domestic policies eliminate the right of free choice of individuals and create an under-class of slaves that are beholden to the government for all their needs while growing the power of the government over-class.

See, I can do pithy responses too. ANd mine are more accurate.

Elliot

However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.

Sir Winston Churchill

[ETWolverine]

Moving forward, we still seem to have difficulty in providing equality for all men, especially in the US where it is the inequality that makes america what it is

That's because you are defining "equality" as equal result. That is a false definition. The correct definition of "equality" is equal;ity of opportunity. And that EVERYONE in the USA has equally.

Nobody states that not all should go to school, as people agree all children should have a fair crack of the whip and it was that do with that that matters

Actually, that is an ongoing debate. Should everyone go to school? Should the state pay for it? It's not as simple as you think it is... especially when the discussion includes higher education... post high school. Is education actually a "right"? Or is it a service that we have the right to purchase if we so desire? The difference is important.

However, in a system that by its very nature requires people to work low paid jobs, without which the economy would collapse, and yet they will not provide a basic health care system that will show that they are rewarded for doing the jobs that most of us do not want to do

Can you name such a job? Fact of the matter is that if people work for the government in low-paid jobs, they have some of the best health care available in the USA. Not to mention having union protection. And if they work for PRIVATE COMPANIES in such jobs, chances are better than 80% that they have health care as well. There are actually very few people who AREN'T covered by some form of health care... less than 3% of Americans, actually (roughly 12 million). So your assumption that there are huge tracts of people in low-paying jobs, forced to work as virtual slaves without health care in this country is just plain wrong.

The argument against this is simple though, Why Should I Pay for someone else's mistakes - well why should I pay for someone to not listen in school?

Exactly. Again, this is an ongoing debate. Don't assume that it is a done deal and that education is universally considered to be a "right".

If the US doesn't want a healthcare system for all, because it would be unfair against those that have worked for their cover, then why not expel those children that are wasting everybodies time at school - you are paying for them to do that

Yep. I'm fine with that. Your point?

Elliot

[tomder55]

I think that your founders had the right idea for its time,

I think it's timeless.

Nobody states that not all should go to school, as people agree all children should have a fair crack of the whip and it was that do with that that matters

Not a good example. Our public school system is a monumental failure precisely because of the centralization of it. Like I said (and what I believe the founders meant by leaving power as much as possible to local authority ) ,such things are better left to the level of government closest to the people . The more madates on education come from the central government the more children fall through the cracks.

However, in a system that by its very nature requires people to work low paid jobs, without which the economy would collapse, and yet they will not provide a basic health care system that will show that they are rewarded for doing the jobs that most of us do not want to do

If the people become so slothful the society is lost anyway. But you got that wrong. You know why I pay electricians ,plumbers ,auto mechanics big bucks ? Because they provide a service I can't do. My lawncare and gardening I'm capable of doing myself.

[phlanx]

Tom

Lowest paid jobs are those that work in fast food restaurants - Forbes 2007 and covers approx 15m americans

These jobs are always going to be needed, as I assume you like to take yourself, family, partner whatever out for at least a cup of coffee every now and again

These jobs are needed, nay, demanded by a capitalist economy, so who are you kidding when you state, Slothful Scoiety?

Even if you had every single child graduating from college with a recognised degree, somebody from this list would still have to be paid crap wages to bring you a cup of coffee

So why shouldn't these people, who lets face it work in some terrible conditions at time - imagine working for maccyds! get a fair crack at having a good healthcare system?

[ETWolverine]

However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.

Sir Winston Churchill

Yes we should. The strategy PRE-9/11 was to hide our heads in the sand and ignore terrorism.

The result?

Aside from 9/11:

September 8 1974 - Abu Nidal organization sets off a bomb that destroys TWA flight 841, killing 88 passengers.

September 10 & 11, 1976 - highjack of TWA flight by Croatian "freedom fighters".

March 9, 1977 - capture of 3 buildings in Washington DC by African-Muslin Hanafi sect operatives, 100 hostages taken, Mayor Marion Barry shot in the chest and one bystander killed.

August 3, 1977 - FALN terrorists bomb the offices of Exxon-Mobile, killing one and injuring 8. The terrorists also falsely warn of bombs in the Empire State Building. Real bombs are found several days later in the AMEX building.

July 1979 - attempts to attack the US and Israeli embasies in Norway stopped by Norweigan police.

June 9 1979: FALN explodes a bomb outside of the Shubert Theatre in Chicago, injuring five people.

November 4, 1977 - start of Iran Hostage Crisis, which lasts 444 days.

March 15, 1980 - FALN terrorists raid the HQ of Jimmy Carter's campaign in Chicago and the HQ of George H. W. Bush 's campaign in NY. Total of 17 hostages taken in these two incidents.

June 3, 1980 - bomb destroys the Story Room of the Statue of Liberty, Croatian sepparatists suspected.

May 16 1981 - bombing of bathrooms in JFK Airport kills 1. Responsibility is claimed by Puerto Rican Resistance Army.

August 11, 1982 - bomb explodes of Pan Am Flight 830 from Tokyo to Honolulu killing 1, injuring 15.

December 31, 1982 - FALN explodes bombs outside 26 Federal Plaza in Manhattan, the FBI headquarters in DC and a courthouse in Brooklyn. 3 police officers injured.

April 18, 1983 - US Embassy bombing in Beirut, Lebanon kills 63, including 18 Americans.

October 23, 1983 - Marine Barracks Bombing in Beirut, Lebanon kills 241 Marines and wounds 81. 58 French troops are killed in a separate attack.

November 9, 1983 - Bomb explodes in US Senate. Armed Resistance Unit claims responsibility.

August 29-October 10, 1984 - The Rajneeshee cult spreads salmonella in salad bars at ten restaurants in The Dalles, Oregon to influence a local election. Health officials say that 751 people were sickened and more than 40 hospitalized

September 20, 1984 - US Embassy in Beirut is bombed. 20 killed.

October 7-10, 1985 - Hijacking of cruiseship Achille Lauro by PLF. Disabled passenger Leon Klinghoffer shot and thrown overboard.

April 5, 1986 - Libyan operatives bomb a German discothèque frequented by US Servicemen, 3 killed.

February 28, 1989 - firebombing of Riverdale Press newspaper offices in New York City.

November 5, 1990 - assassination of Israeli Knesset Member Meir Kahana in New York City by early elements of Al Qaeda.

January 25, 1993 - Mir Aimal Kansi, a Pakistani, fires an AK-47 assault rifle into cars waiting at a stoplight in front of the Central Intelligence Agency headquarters, killing two and injuring three others.

February 26, 1993 - WTC Bombing kills 6 and injures over 1,000. Coalition of 5 different muslim terrorist groups responsible. Again, this is an early operation of the terrorist umbrella organization known as Al Qaeda.

March 1, 1994 - Brooklyn Bridge shooting by Muslim terrorist kills 1.

February 24, 1997 - Ali Abu Kamal opens fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State Building in New York City, killing a Danish national and wounding visitors from the United States, Argentina, Switzerland and France before turning the gun on himself. A handwritten note carried by the gunman claims this was a punishment attack against the "enemies of Palestine".

August 7 1998 - U.S. embassy bombings in Dar es Salaam and Nairobi, killing 225 people and injuring more than 4,000, by al-Qaeda.

October 19, 1998 - Earth Liberation Front causes $12 million worth of damage with firebombing of a ski resort in Vail, Colorado.

December 31 1999 - Earth Liberation Front causes over $1 million of damage in firebombing of Michigan State University's Agriculture Hall.

April 30, 2000 - The Earth Liberation Front (ELF) claimed responsibility for causing over $500,000 in damages to construction equipment in Elettsville, Indiana. Fourteen pieces of logging and construction equipment were destroyed by the perpetrators, who filled gas tanks with sand, cut fuel and hydraulic lines and set a tractor-trailer filled with wood chips on fire.

That's 29 attacks in 27 years... and I missed a few that weren't successful attacks. I also left off the domestic terrorist attacks.

After our response to 9/11 in Afghanistan and Iraq?

Nothing.

So, I look at our strategy and I look at the result, and I see success.

Elliot

[paraclete]

You living in Fairyland or Oz?

Now that's hitting below the belt but I have you know that in oz we don't have to boil the water to make it safe. Look Ex would love it here, he could have the choice between two political parties who have leftist tendencies, one that claims to represent the workers and the other that claims to represent the battlers. Before our last election the party that claimed to represent the workers had a "me too" attitude to policy excepting to changes in Labor laws. What do both these groups do about health care, interestingly they maintain a system where basic health care is "paid for", and I emphasise 'paid for' by the government. The system allows you to pay any amount you want to to a doctor to look after you but the government will rebate a set fee, so choice is absolute. In this fairyland there is no reason for any person not to consult a doctor or receive treatment in a hospital because they cannot afford care.

I think that is what Obama is trying to achieve. The vested interests oppose such an objective and the politicians can't quite get their minds around how to achieve it

[paraclete]

The Founders were clear about the role of government .

“In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself.” –James Madison, Federalist No. 51

That is why the founders made the powers of the national government few and enumerated in the constitution. The rest of the governing authority rests in state and local authority through the will of the people.

Concepts that worked well when travel was difficult and communications almost non existent. What you have is a present fettered by the thinking of men who lived in a different age, an age of kings, colonialism and war between states

[tomder55]

Lowest paid jobs are those that work in fast food restaurants

If I count the times I was employed in high school ;college and post college starting ,I was that employee for a good 15-20 years. Name the job and I did it . There was almost nothing I wouldn't do. Hey ;if the government had paid for all my necessities then perhaps I'd've lost a good deal of the incentive to improve my condition... no ?

I am all in favor of a hard case safety net. I draw the line when my years of hard work means that someone else is ENTITLED to live off my labor.

[ETWolverine]

Concepts that worked well when travel was difficult and communications almost non existent. What you have is a present fettered by the thinking of men who lived in a different age, an age of kings, colonialism and war between states

I fail to see how technological improvement changes the principals behind our Founding.

I fail to see how the advent of cars, cell phones and computers makes what the Founders said about the dangers of government power and the methods of preventing its abuse. If anything, technology has allowed for GREATER government control over our everyday lives, our businesses and our liberties. If anything the warnings of the Founders are more relevant today than they ever were before, not less.

You are willing to give your government that control. We are not. Technological changes don't enter into it. I daresay that you would be just as permissive of your government managing your life if you were living in the early 1800s as you are today. And we conservatives would be just as strongly against it as we are today.

Elliot

[phlanx]

Yes we should. The strategy PRE-9/11 was to hide our heads in the sand and ignore terrorism.

The result?

Aside from 9/11:

September 8 1974 - Abu Nidal organization sets off a bomb that destroys TWA flight 841, killing 88 passengers.

September 10 & 11, 1976 - highjack of TWA flight by Croatian "freedom fighters".

March 9, 1977 - capture of 3 buildings in Washington DC by African-Muslin Hanafi sect operatives, 100 hostages taken, Mayor Marion Barry shot in the chest and one bystander killed.

August 3, 1977 - FALN terrorists bomb the offices of Exxon-Mobile, killing one and injuring 8. The terrorists also falsely warn of bombs in the Empire State Building. Real bombs are found several days later in the AMEX building.

July 1979 - attempts to attack the US and Israeli embasies in Norway stopped by Norweigan police.

June 9 1979: FALN explodes a bomb outside of the Shubert Theatre in Chicago, injuring five people.

November 4, 1977 - start of Iran Hostage Crisis, which lasts 444 days.

March 15, 1980 - FALN terrorists raid the HQ of Jimmy Carter's campaign in Chicago and the HQ of George H. W. Bush 's campaign in NY. Total of 17 hostages taken in these two incidents.

June 3, 1980 - bomb destroys the Story Room of the Statue of Liberty, Croatian sepparatists suspected.

May 16 1981 - bombing of bathrooms in JFK Airport kills 1. Responsibility is claimed by Puerto Rican Resistance Army.

August 11, 1982 - bomb explodes of Pan Am Flight 830 from Tokyo to Honolulu killing 1, injuring 15.

December 31, 1982 - FALN explodes bombs outside 26 Federal Plaza in Manhattan, the FBI headquarters in DC and a courthouse in Brooklyn. 3 police officers injured.

April 18, 1983 - US Embassy bombing in Beirut, Lebanon kills 63, including 18 Americans.

October 23, 1983 - Marine Barracks Bombing in Beirut, Lebanon kills 241 Marines and wounds 81. 58 French troops are killed in a separate attack.

November 9, 1983 - Bomb explodes in US Senate. Armed Resistance Unit claims responsibility.

August 29-October 10, 1984 - The Rajneeshee cult spreads salmonella in salad bars at ten restaurants in The Dalles, Oregon to influence a local election. Health officials say that 751 people were sickened and more than 40 hospitalized

September 20, 1984 - US Embassy in Beirut is bombed. 20 killed.

October 7-10, 1985 - Hijacking of cruiseship Achille Lauro by PLF. Disabled passenger Leon Klinghoffer shot and thrown overboard.

April 5, 1986 - Libyan operatives bomb a German discotheque frequented by US Servicemen, 3 killed.

February 28, 1989 - firebombing of Riverdale Press newspaper offices in New York City.

November 5, 1990 - assasination of Israeli Knesset Member Meir Kahana in New York City by early elements of Al Qaeda.

January 25, 1993 - Mir Aimal Kansi, a Pakistani, fires an AK-47 assault rifle into cars waiting at a stoplight in front of the Central Intelligence Agency headquarters, killing two and injuring three others.

February 26, 1993 - WTC Bombing kills 6 and injures over 1,000. Coalition of 5 different muslim terrorist groups responsible. Again, this is an early operation of the terrorist umbrella organization known as Al Qaeda.

March 1, 1994 - Brooklyn Bridge shooting by Muslim terrorist kills 1.

February 24, 1997 - Ali Abu Kamal opens fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State Building in New York City, killing a Danish national and wounding visitors from the United States, Argentina, Switzerland and France before turning the gun on himself. A handwritten note carried by the gunman claims this was a punishment attack against the "enemies of Palestine".

August 7 1998 - U.S. embassy bombings in Dar es Salaam and Nairobi, killing 225 people and injuring more than 4,000, by al-Qaeda.

October 19, 1998 - Earth Liberation Front causes $12 million worth of damage with firebombing of a ski resort in Vail, Colorado.

December 31 1999 - Earth Liberation Front causes over $1 million of damage in firebombing of Michigan State University's Agriculture Hall.

April 30, 2000 - The Earth Liberation Front (ELF) claimed responsibility for causing over $500,000 in damages to construction equipment in Elettsville, Indiana. Fourteen pieces of logging and construction equipment were destroyed by the perpetrators, who filled gas tanks with sand, cut fuel and hydraulic lines and set a tractor-trailer filled with wood chips on fire.

That's 29 attacks in 27 years... and I missed a few that weren't successful attacks. I also left off the domestic terrorist attacks.

After our response to 9/11 in Afghanistan and Iraq?

Nothing.

So, I look at our strategy and I look at the result, and I see success.

Elliot

To all who lost their lives from terrorism, rest and respect

Elliot

As I witnessed the IRA bombing of Hyde Park in 1982, I am somewhat familiar with the effects that terrorism has. I was on the other side of the park with my Dad, horror films have never been the same since

I think here though you are trying to persuade an argument that was based on the number of people who died in a single attack

If it wasn't for 9-11 there would be no war in Iraq etc

However, having lived with terrorism what seems all my life, do not think that the chances of you being bombed again have gone

The reason why it is particular effective is any idiot can do it, with very little assistance, but then you know that from your israeli experience

What you have to do is learn from each other of why there is so much hatred between the two sides

This involves talking, and I guarantee at some point talking will happen in Afgahanistan, and all its regions, because we cannot let this go and needs to be finished and not left to stir up again in 5 years

But this moves the subject away from the question

And we both know where we stand on this issue, I'm right your wrong :D

[phlanx]

If I count the times I was employed in high school ;college and post college starting out ,I was that employee for a good 15-20 years. Name the job and I did it . There was almost nothing I wouldn't do. Hey ;if the government had paid for all my necessities then perhaps I'd've lost a good deal of the incentive to improve my condition ...no ?

I am all in favor of a hard case safety net. I draw the line when my years of hard work means that someone else is ENTITLED to live off my labor.

I don't disagree that these jobs are there for students and the like, but at the same time, not every one of the 15m people employed in these jobs are students

[phlanx]

I fail to see how technological improvement changes the principals behind our Founding.

I fail to see how the advent of cars, cell phones and computers makes what the Founders said about the dangers of government power and the methods of preventing its abuse. If anything, technology has allowed for GREATER government control over our everyday lives, our businesses and our liberties. If anything the warnings of the Founders are more relevant today than they ever were before, not less.

You are willing to give your government that control. We are not. Technological changes don't enter into it. I daresay that you would be just as permissive of your government managing your life if you were living in the early 1800s as you are today. And we conservatives would be just as strongly against it as we are today.

Elliot

I am not sure if the princicples have changed but I do believe that one or two technologies have meant greater cultural influence over each other

He we have several people from different countries arguing the difference of yesturdays news, and yet this happening all over the world

Cultural influence has been accelerated at a phenomonal pace, no longer do governments control foreign policy in its entirity, it is now in the hands of the people and growing

Just as I have found out that not all americans live up to their stereotypes, but I hope I have represented England in a timely tradition G'vnor

The point is this, no person can look to the future with certainty, but we can try to plan for it, and the one goal we are all after, I want to make sure I am cared for if something's happen

Whether it is through work of your own, or given to you, I just can't see what is wrong with giving every human being the chance to be given medical assistance, and seen as this is something that every human being will need, it is a goal we all share in our lives

It is a shame that for a simple reformation of the healthcare system you object to helping your fellow man in a very easy gesture of goodwill

[George_1950]

I think that is what Obama is trying to achieve. The vested interests oppose such an objective and the politicians can't quite get their minds around how to achieve it

Obama is a fascist or socialist, whichever you want to call him; he is, 'all government, all the time'.

Beginning around 1965, persons aged 65 and up, almost universally, have Medicare. It is going bust. Is that difficult to understand? Too many 'customers' chasing too few 'providers'; the result of which is higher prices.

Because hospitals and doctors are taking an economic loss vis a vis Medicare, they charge younger 'customers' more. This is an unintended economic consequence, which leads to higher prices from providers and insurers.

I don't care how large your heart is; how do you propose to pay for it? If you want taxpayers to pay for healthcare, what about shelter and food? Transportation? Daycare? Clothes? Pet care? Burial? Utilities?

[excon]

I don't care how large your heart is; how do you propose to pay for it?

Hello again, George:

I wonder why you don't ask the same question when it comes to your wars.

excon