[arcura]

classyT,
Thanks for YOUR opinion on those questions.
But I still believe that baptism is needed for salvation as the bible so indicates.
Fred

[classyT]

Fred,

LOL... well now if it was just MY opinion it wouldn't mean too much would it? Ya know what they say about opinions doncha? Not good. Ha ha... anyway, I actually believe that is what the Bible teaches. I know many people do not. That's OK... I never have changed anyone's mind so far. :)

Peace and Kindness,

Tess

[sndbay]

ClassyT ,

I view the bible telling us to put on Christ. Follow Christ, Walk having the Spirit of Christ.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

[classyT]

Snd,

Me too! :)

[sndbay]

But I still believe that baptism is needed for salvation as the bible so indicates.
Fred

AGREE.. Why else would God have told us that even all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

Again it is because they too put on Christ , the same spiritual meat and drink, that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

I trust we need to all put on the ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. It is the truth of being one with Christ.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

[arcura]

sndbay.
I agree, "I trust we need to all put on the ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. It is the truth of being one with Christ"
Fred

[Unknown008]

Sorry to pull out that thread again. I would like to say that I agree onto the last few posts if the baptism implied is water baptism and add a few things since I have some spare time.

I say that because there is also the baptism by the Holy Spirit. (this was already said in the middle pages of this thread itself)

Baptism by immersion is not necessary, but if one does not baptise by immersion, it will be disobeying to God. (I don't know, however, if people who were not baptised were saved or not, dead people rarely talk, but if one knows that God told them to baptise, then he has to)

[sndbay]

Baptism by immersion is not necessary, but if one does not baptise by immersion, it will be disobeying to God.

I am one to say, I trust we have to be baptized, and that baptism must be done by the body submersion in water. (immersed completely) We should not go according to man's doctrine, nor should be think man is baptizing the individual. The baptism is done by the SPIRIT, and witnessed by heaven and earth "ONE"

1 John 5:7-8-9 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in ONE. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

(I don't know, however, if people who were not baptised were saved or not, dead people rarely talk, but if one knows that God told them to baptise, then he has to)

Baptism is necessary as witnessed, and if we believeth not, we have made God a liar. WHY? because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
(1 John 5:10)

[Unknown008]

I said that it was not necessary because I'm not sure. I'm still not fully 'convinced'. I am wondering what happens to those that happen to know God, but die before they have the time to get baptised.

I, however, personally believe that I have to get baptised (I haven't yet, but plan to next week, I saw this thread weeks ago, but finally decided to have a look, and it was interesting!). I have thought over and over, and came to that conclusion.

I was told, for those saying that baptism must be done for infants, that baptism follows the acceptance of Christ, and an infant does not yet understand that. It has to be done when the person is fully aware of what he is doing, the symbol of it, and the purpose of it.

There have been testimonies, where people said they saw angels 'clapping' in front of them when they raised from the water, instead of the people who were gathered. (hence that God and the angels are pleased when they see we're getting baptised)

Ok, I would like to know, if possible what happens to the people I mentioned in the first paragraph of this post, if you please.

[sndbay]

Ok, I would like to know, if possible what happens to the people I mentioned in the first paragraph of this post, if you please.

Unknown008,

I am no judge, and God's Will is done by HIS spiritual power to arouse and invigorate the spirit. If anyone judges, they would be judging God and HIS actions.

I believe One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all, has everything in HIS hands.

God's assurance is that everyone is called, and even previously all were baptism. Refer:

1 Corinthians 10:1-2-3-4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Scripture warns us not to tempt Christ, that all is an ensample to us.

[arcura]

Unknown008 and sndbay,
Are you saying that people who were not baptized by immersion but otherwise are not baptized at all.
If so I very much disagree with that.
There is NO proof that John the Baptizer completely immersed his people.
Yes they stood in a river, but water could have been poured over their heads.
I was baptized in a Lutheran church, and I strongly resent it if someone says that I was not baptized for I know that the Holy Spirit does dwell within me.
I strongly say that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. Lord and Savior, the Son of God and God the Son.
As the bible tells us I could not say that if it were not but for the will of God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sndbay]

Unknown008 and sndbay,
Are you saying that people who were not baptized by immersion but otherwise are not baptized at all.
Fred

Once Again and posted previously I am no judge.

Also previously posted I believe in the record God witnessed to us of HIS SON in baptism. To say it is not told of us to follow HIS footsteps in baptism, is to call God a lier.

FRED, when people questions their own path, they should take their heart felt questions to the LORD in prayer. Allow the Spirit of truth to led you. Stand still to listen, and surrender man's will to instead do the will of God.

[Unknown008]

Ok, got a teaching today on baptism, to prepare us and clearing all doubts concerning it.

There are in fact 4 occurrences of baptism, yes 4. I knew only two at first, but there are four.
1. Baptism of repentance (Marc 1:4)
2. Baptism of suffering (Marc 10: 38, 39)
3. Baptism of the christian (Matt 28:19)
4. Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5)

However, only two concern us, namely the baptism of the christian and that of the Holy Spirit.

And acura, to answer your question, it is found in Matt 3:16

And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him

If Jesus went up out of the water, that surely means that he was immersed with it, right?

Also, Acts 8: 38, 39

38: And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

39: And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Also, if you look for the word baptism wikipedia, you'll see that its roots are from the greek word "baptizo", which means to immerse.

[sndbay]

There is also scripture that compares Baptism to the like figure of the flood of Noah which destroyes evil. And the water of the flood was enough to submerge people.

1 Peter 3:20-21 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Not like the baptism John the Baptist did in forgiveness, NOW it is the good conscience toward God by a death to evil, and raising of life in righteousness by a quickened spirit.


And scripture compares baptism with Christ putting to death the flesh but quickened by the Spirit. We are buried with Christ in our own baptism. The flesh is dead to sin (evil).

(1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit)

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
(Romans 6:1-2-3)

For he that is dead is freed from sin. (Romans 6:7)

[classyT]

Unknown,

I believe one SHOULD be immersed because of the examples in the word. But I don't believe it is required for salvation so I'm not going to be dogmatic about it.

This is kind of off thread but I was raised in a very fundemental assembly and was there until my late 30's. When they remembered the Lord on Sunday they passed around one loaf of bread and everyone partook and then one glass of wine and everyone drank out of it. It didn't bug me too much until some of the older people started leaving pieces of the bread floating in the wine glass. Now, I'm telling you... it was gross.

The reason I mention it... is because they were insistant we must all drink from one glass because that is how they did it at the last supper. I don't get too hung up on that kind of thing in my old age... if someone wants to be baptized and they aren't completely immersed I believe the Lord will still honor it. It is about the heart and obedience MORE than anything else.

[JoeT777]

There is Scriptural testimony of baptizing of the young. “And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying: If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and abide there." (Acts 16:15) It's unlikely that this woman would have left the children behind, no more likely than a Jew would have left his male children uncircumcised on day 9.

At the feet of Paul and Silas the magistrate cried, “what must I do”. "And they preached the word of the Lord to him and to all that were in his house. Himself was baptized, and his entire house immediately" (Acts 16:33) It would have been a strange household not to have had children. Further evidence testifies that Paul “baptized the household of Stephanus" (1 Corinthians 1:16), as a Jewish father is obliged to circumcise his 8 day old son.

The relation to circumcision is clear to the Jew? Circumcision wasn't that unusual a ritual in Abraham's antiquity. Brit milah literally means Covenant of Circumcision. Baptism was not unique to the Jewish custom, a great many in the near east practice some form of circumcision. It seems that certain classes of Egyptians did it, as did some Indian tribes. What is unique is that God gave Abraham the commandment to circumcise (Cf. Gen. xvii, 11 and Lev. Xii,3) The Jewish ritual had both spiritual and hygienic purposes not to mention a unique marking of the male body. To the Jew in Abraham's time, Moses' time and the Jew in Christ's time it a physical of a spiritual connection with God. Brit milah was an obligation both for the father and for the child. Not only was the child to be circumcised on the eighth day of the child's life birth, but failing the father and child suffered a spiritual separation. The child would continue to suffer spiritual excision, (unable to enter the Kingdom of God to come – one of the most server punishments in the Jewish culture,) until as an adult he could be circumcised. I'm told the ritual that accompanies the brit milah is a solemn occasion with prayers and blessings recited with the child receiving his Hebrew name. The Jew did not take circumcision lightly; it marked them spiritually and physically as a member of the Jewish community and a future member of the Kingdom of God. It joined their manhood to God. (Cf. If there is interest Judaism Judaism 101: Birth and the First Month of Life)

The important points here are that circumcision is a Divine convent applied to ALL Jews. Consequently when Paul writes, “In whom also you are circumcised” we understand that God is doing the circumcision in baptism. And equally important is that this is “a circumcision not made by hand in despoiling of the body of the flesh: but in the circumcision of Christ. Buried with him in baptism: in whom also you are risen again by the faith of the operation of God who hath raised him up from the dead.“ Clearly Paul is equating baptism with the definitive mark of circumcision; circumcision that is called baptism, obligatory to both father and child. Every Jewish ear in the crowd would have understood. Baptism is spiritual joining of man to God and until accomplished one suffers the penalty of kareit, (separation). For child and adult alike “he hath quickened together with him, forgiving you all offences: (Col. iii, 11-13)

These biblical testimonies are culturally engrained in Paul's day and it was not necessary to explain them in detail, similar to an American's claim to 'rights' as a cultural understanding of our God given freedoms. It was culturally understood that circumcision, vis-à-vis baptism, included the young. I'm not under any delusion that biblical references include a mandate to run out and baptize our children, but our Christian Tradition, like the Jewish traditions, recognizes the severe dangers to the mortal soul for both the child and his parents. The Roman Catholic Church urges all parents to baptize their children. Why not baptize the children?

JoeT

[arcura]

Joe,
What you said is true.
There is also the biblical case where a great crowd of Jews were ALL baptized.
It is hard to imagine a large crowd of Jews in that day and age with no children in it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sndbay]

At the feet of Paul and Silas the magistrate cried, “what must I do”. "And they preached the word of the Lord to him and to all that were in his house. Himself was baptized, and his entire house immediately" (Acts 16:33) It would have been a strange household not to have had children.

And I edify what you have said in the name of Christ Jesus, who's word is truth, and not what you have offered to this thread.

Refer:Acts 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed [their] stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

The stripes were what was laid upon them in prison, they were casted into prison and the jailor was given charge of them. They later at midnight prayed, sang praises to God. Then by the hand of God a great earthquake, and all the doors of the prison opened. This all caused the prisoners to believe, and so yes all were baptized.

The meaning of all his in concordances = greek 846, themselves and used being applied to what has previously been mentioned or when the whole discourse is looked at.

Further evidence testifies that Paul “baptized the household of Stephanus" (1 Corinthians 1:16), .

Stephanas household is the inhabited of the structure known as Christian convert of Corinth. (A converted Christian has confessed their belief in Jesus Christ)

The Roman Catholic Church urges all parents to baptize their children. Why not baptize the children?

The will of man is spoken and being taught. And we do understand the will of the parent is that their children would come to know the Lord Jesus. However we have to surrender our will to do the will of God.

The Word spoken by scripture is that one thing hinders baptism, and that one thing is that they by their own liberty confess the begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ. (This is the will of God)

WHY Not baptize infants? because the truth was shown in Jesus walk on earth, and as an infant HE was brought before the house of God in a dedication of thankfulness. He later surrendered to suffer baptism. How old was Jesus when baptize?

[Unknown008]

Unknown,

I believe one SHOULD be immersed because of the examples in the word. But I don't believe it is required for salvation so I'm not gonna be dogmatic about it.

This is kind of off thread but I was raised in a very fundemental assembly and was there until my late 30's. when they remembered the Lord on Sunday they passed around one loaf of bread and everyone partook and then one glass of wine and everyone drank out of it. It didn't bug me too much until some of the older people started leaving pieces of the bread floating in the wine glass. Now, I'm tellin ya ....it was gross.

The reason I mention it ...is because they were insistant we must all drink from one glass because that is how they did it at the last supper. I don't get too hung up on that kind of thing in my old age....if someone wants to be baptized and they aren't completely immersed I believe the Lord will still honor it. It is about the heart and obedience MORE than anything else.

I agree that baptism does not save. It is accepting Christ in our heart as lord and saviour which does.

I know that immersion is the actual tradition. I would understand too that if one is not completely immersed, the Lord will still honour it. That would be the case when one cannot be immersed totally, like for example, an handicapped would not be easily taken for water immersion, nor would a person suffering from a serious disease. But one who can spare the time for this, complete immersion is preferred. That's my opinion anyway, :)

And yes, Joe and Fred, the bible did not explicitly mentioned the baptism of infants.

If you look in Matt 28:19, you'll see that Jesus told his disciples to go through the nations, and make them disciples of God, and then baptise them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

I wonder how can an infant who doesn't understand yet his/her purpose on earth be a disciple... :rolleyes:

And what sndbay said is another reason. Jesus waited for so many years (30 years) to get baptized. Why not at his birth?

[JoeT777]

I agree that baptism does not save. It is accepting Christ in our heart as lord and savior which does.

How do we explain away what Christ said to Nicodemus, "unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Are these different waters? If so, whose 'water' would it be? How would you render 'water' in this verse?

Baptism, according to Christ's words (not this Catholic's word), is necessary to enter the Kingdom of God.

I wonder how can an infant who doesn't understand yet his/her purpose on earth be a disciple... :rolleyes:

Compared to adults, infants are not very smart, are they? They can't even care for themselves, need to be feed, put to sleep, etc. The infant cannot survive without the care of adults. You might say they are 'primitive' humans – not quite human (that's an inside joke for people who had kids)? In any event there is a vast distance between the intellect of an infant and an adult. I wonder what the distance between the intellect of an adult and God is? To an omnipotent God, wouldn't the distance between an adult and an infant approach zero, that is relative to the distance between an adult and God? So, couldn't you say that baptism of any person (adult or infant) would be 'infant baptism' when viewed by God?

JoeT