[Synnen]

I'm a gamer (and can't believe I didn't see this thread before!)

I've been pretty hard-core about playing games on my computer since about 1996.

The REASON most older females (and I'm talking "out of our teens") don't play many of the games out there is that we have too many OTHER responsibilities. Men can seem to get away with going on a 9 hour guild raid in an MMORPG and leaving the kids to their wives, but how often do you hear about women doing the same thing while their husbands watch the kids?

I think there would be more women gamers IF:

1. Games weren't so time-intensive. Most women, by definition, cannot spend the time required because there are other things to do--cooking, cleaning, kids, laundry, grocery shopping, etc. And while yes---guys DO do these things, most guys will NOT do them just so that their wife can game, and the wife will just do them so that they get DONE.
2. If there were more of a mental challenge to the game. Sorry, but point, click, kaboom isn't intelligent enough to hold my attention, so I don't play FPSs. Give me a puzzle, or a quest, and make it challenging.
3. If games were more social. I like MMOs because I can chat with my friends who are scattered around the world at the same time we ALL play the same game. It's almost as good as a board game on a table after a good dinner together.

Mostly, though--it's the investment of time. I play Yahoo games more than anything else lately, because I can be interrupted without someone getting ticked off, I can pause the game, and I can walk away more often and do things like change the wash load and finish the dishes and such more easily.

[morgaine300]

Most of what I hear is from females who just plain don't like games to begin with, as opposed to ones who like them but don't have time to play them. I don't have as much time for them as I'd like either, but I do fit time in.

However, I live alone, so not only do I have to do all those typical female things, I have to do all the typical male things too. I'm the only one there is. But I have to have time for me, so I fit them in when I can.

I also know married couples who both play games, and the women will play just as much. Most women I know don't really want their husbands off playing for nine hours at a time either. If I married someone who wanted his gaming time, then I expect him to respect me in return and allow me my time.

I also find plenty of mentally challenging things out there. Everything doesn't go kaboom. (Though that can be fun to an extent.)

And this certainly doesn't explain why younger girls don't start playing them to begin with. I think a lot of them simply don't like the games.

[Synnen]

I think that the games aren't designed toward their interests.

Look at The Sims---it's "Playing House" to the nth degree, and its gaming population is mostly female (or was, the last time I looked at the stats).

Part of the problem is that there are not a lot of female game designers (I work at one of the few schools in the country that offer the Game Design & Development B.S. degree). The population is about 1% of the total designers.

Look at some of the games on Facebook that are female dominated--and played by a LOT of teens. The ones that appeal to females are the ones that appeal to what they like to do ANYWAY. Sorority Life is one that comes to mind, and Farmville and YoVille. I have teenage cousins that LOVE those games, and play them often.

The other thing to look at is for console games, the Wii has grabbed a LOT of the female console players--again, because the games appeal to them anyway. I have a 7 year old niece that LOVES to play on the Wii--but the games she plays are "Disney Princesses" and "Rock Band" and "Mario Party 8" and "Carnival Games". With the way that the controllers work on the Wii, it's not as much learning how to press the right buttons, but about timing and control. She likes the sports games too--Tennis, and the Olympics, and golf, of all things.

/shrug

I think there are lots of reasons girls don't get into it, but mostly I think it's game content and delivery.

[morgaine300]

They make games that appeal to me. I wouldn't go near any of the stuff you mentioned. On the other hand, I'm not a "girl." Somehow this thread keeps straying from female gamers to "girls."

The adult female gamers I know play the same kind of stuff the guys do. I think that stuff either appeals to someone or it doesn't. Not all guys like that stuff either. i.e. everyone is simply not interested in gaming. And the women I know who don't play them don't mess with the stuff you're talking about either. They just don't play games at all.

Maybe there aren't many female game developers because they don't want to be.

[Synnen]

You asked why younger girls don't start playing to begin with---and I pointed out why.

I never played video games as a younger woman (age 5-25, since you don't like the word "girl" for someone who technically IS a girl--a minor under the age of 18). I thought video games were idiotic and a waste of time, especially as a teenager.

It took the right game to make me a believer in video games (in my case, it was SimCity, followed by Civilization, followed by The Sims, with others between).

I'm now a HUGE fan of MMOs, and have beta-tested several, some of which I liked enough to play after launch.

Maybe there aren't a lot of female gamers because it's a field that women haven't broken into--and believe me, the sexism is pretty bad. Saying there aren't many female game developers because they don't want to be is like saying there weren't many female doctors in the 1950s because women didn't WANT to be doctors.

[morgaine300]

You asked why younger girls don't start playing to begin with---and I pointed out why.

I never asked that. I made a comment about "females who just plain don't like games to start with..." Females, not younger girls. And it wasn't a question - it was a statement.

I never played video games as a younger woman (age 5-25, since you don't like the word "girl" for someone who technically IS a girl--a minor under the age of 18).

You're being very good at confusing what I'm saying. This whole thread was started over "female" gamers. So I was discussing females - of all ages. Just females in general, including older women. But people were responding to me about "girls" - like younger people, and that wasn't necessarily what I was referring to. Perhaps other people were, but they were responding to me when I was referring to females in general, including older ones.

You just did the same thing. You're off talking about what younger females like and I wasn't referring to that at all. So you're one more person who took what I said about females in general and turned it into something about younger girls. I mean, c'mon, Disney Princesses? That entire post was about younger girls and not related to anything at all that I was talking about. You started talking about married women, with kids and responsbiilities, and I was responding to that. Next post you twisted it back around to younger girls again.

It has nothing to do with the use of the word "girl" - it has to do with discussing females and then twisting the whole discussion back around as though it's only to do with girls.

Maybe there aren't a lot of female gamers because it's a field that women haven't broken into--and believe me, the sexism is pretty bad. Saying there aren't many female game developers because they don't want to be is like saying there weren't many female doctors in the 1950s because women didn't WANT to be doctors.

No it's not. People of any "group" (females, minorities, whatever) have this tendency to think that there's something "wrong" with a small percentage of that group doing something, as though there's something innately bad about it. Just because the world is half women doesn't mean half the gamers need to be women, and then if they're not, something must be wrong. There's nothing "wrong" if women/girls/whatever don't play games the way men do.

It's like arguing about what percent of engineers are women, as though there's something "wrong" that not more are. Or doctors. Or whatever else. Lots of doctors are women now, so obviously there's nothing standing in their way. But lots of engineers aren't women. So then women want to think that's "wrong." Why? Maybe they don't want to be engineers.

And maybe they don't want to be game developers either.

How often does anyone freak that not very many men are nurses? Rarely. It rarely ever gets discussed. In fact, people usually find it weird when they run across a male nurse. But no one freaks over it. Oh wow, half the world is men, so half the nurses ought to be men. No one says that.

You know why? Cause no one cares what men do. They don't care if men aren't doing the things women do. No one cares if a man doesn't knit or cook. But as soon as women aren't doing something, it's a major catastrophy.

Give me one good reason that any female needs to play games, or needs to develop games.

And if princess stuff and farmtown and sorority crap were the only thing women could manage to do, I'd rather have men doing it anyway.

[Synnen]

I'm offended that you think that princess stuff and farmtown and sorority crap are somehow below the average person---and that somehow, the games that men primarily play (first person shooters, for instance) are somehow intellectually more stimulating.

I don't have a problem with women NOT wanting to do it. However--I WORK with young women who enroll in the program and STATE that they leave the program because the men in the program push them out--that they are not taken seriously, and are given a hard time and sexist comments and basically made to NOT want to deal with the crap just to have a job in game design--they go on to other forms of programming or graphic design much of the time. Less than 2% of our Game Design graduates are female, though about 10% of applicants are female.

THAT is where I was going with the doctor comments. I think that enough (though I'm sure it's not 50%) women would like to do it, but that they're not willing to deal with the sexism currently in place in the game design environment--and yes, I've heard from women who DID graduate the program, and it's as bad or worse in the field for a female game designer.

I am just trying to point out that at least SOME women WANT to do it--just like some women in the 50s wanted to be doctors, and some women in the 70s wanted to be cops. I'm not saying that it is 50% of the population, I'm saying that it's going to take more women breaking through the "good ol' boys" in place now before we see a significant increase in female game designers.

[shazamataz]

I like your points Synnen, the majority of women do like playing more puzzle based games, and stay away from the mindless, "point and blow it up games"

Me however, I do like those mindless point and shoot games.
I have been addicted to Unreal Tourmanent at the moment, and even though it is mindless violence, I still find it fun :)

I find myself playing a lot of Facebook games as well though, mostly puzzle based ones.

And finally my Nintendo DS, I have quite a wide range of games on there, from puzzle games, to brain training to just plain old fun kids games.

Love playing anything RPG, it's a great way to get "lost" in the game and escape from reality for a while, The Final Fantasy series is surprisingly played by a pretty even field, I know just as many girls and I do guys that have played them.

[morgaine300]

I'm offended that you think that princess stuff and farmtown and sorority crap are somehow below the average person---and that somehow, the games that men primarily play (first person shooters, for instance) are somehow intellectually more stimulating.

I never said that either!

Perhaps if you actually paid attention to what I really say, instead of making up this crap that I've never said, you wouldn't be so offended. (That's twice in a row you've just outright made up something I've said.)

As for the princess stuff and sorority crap, being "below" someone isn't really the point. The point is that a mature woman is not likely to be interested in that stuff. That sounds like girl stuff. I didn't even get into sorority stuff when I was in college, let alone now.

And you're also now stereotyping the guys, that all they do is a bunch of mindless non-intellectual stuff. Granted, there's a pretty big male audience for that stuff. A higher percentage of the younger male audience is into that stuff than the older male audience.

But there's a lot of stuff in between, including stuff guys play. I don't play princesses and sorority stuff. I have ONE shooter than I like, probably because it does require more thought and patience and isn't just going around kabooming everything. (Though kabooming can be fun for short spurts.)

And yet... I have well over 100 games sitting around here. So if I don't have sorority stuff and I only own one shooter, what exactly are all these games that I have? Obviously there's a lot more for me to be referring to than those two extremes, you think? And plenty of them offer intellectual stimulation. (Not that there's anything wrong with working out the ole' reflexes too, as long as you stop to have a life.)

I never said the shooters were more intellectually stimulating than the girl games. I never said anything even remotely like that. I say I have no interest in those "girl games" and suddenly I think shooters are more intellectual? I don't even play shooters so why would I be talking about that? Where do you come up with this stuff?

And why are you so thoroughly convinced that it's going to take women designers to make games that more women will like and thereby increase their numbers? You've talked as though you want more intellectually stimulating stuff. That stuff exists. Men develop most of that stuff. (Not that the number of women gamers needs to increase.)

And by the way, pretty much most of the male gamers I know are perfectly happy having the female gamers join them. And most of the male computer geeky people I know are perfectly happy to have the female computer geeky people join them too. I also know very, very few women who would ever be into something like designing games. Oh... and while you work at a school and are in contact with people in the business, I hang around some places that include a lot of those people, designers, programmers, etc. I don't see what you're talking about. The people I see in that business aren't any less relevant than the people you see in it.

[Synnen]

As for the princess stuff and sorority crap, being "below" someone isn't really the point. The point is that a mature woman is not likely to be interested in that stuff. That sounds like girl stuff. I didn't even get into sorority stuff when I was in college, let alone now.

So... now *I* am not a "mature woman" because I like those games? I'll be sure to pass that on to my 30 something friends--male AND female--who play those games. I didn't get into sorority crap in college either. Perhaps you should see what the game is ACTUALLY about before passing judgement, hmm?

[qupte]And you're also now stereotyping the guys, that all they do is a bunch of mindless non-intellectual stuff. Granted, there's a pretty big male audience for that stuff. A higher percentage of the younger male audience is into that stuff than the older male audience.[/quote]

No... what I said was that while women dominate puzzle games, men dominate first person shooters. And made the comparison that if YOU were calling one idiotic based on your opinion, I was doing the same based on MY opinion. I never got into killing other people and running around with a gun when I was younger.

And yet... I have well over 100 games sitting around here. So if I don't have sorority stuff and I only own one shooter, what exactly are all these games that I have? Obviously there's a lot more for me to be referring to than those two extremes, you think? And plenty of them offer intellectual stimulation. (Not that there's anything wrong with working out the ole' reflexes too, as long as you stop to have a life.)

I've been playing video games on the computer since 1996 (which is when I got my first computer). My husband and I own every console system ever put out except the Wii and the Nintendo 64. I have a 500 disc CD rack in the computer room FULL of games---and that isn't counting the console games, of which there is another rack in the living room holding 300 more. This isn't counting the games downloaded on each of the 4 computers in the house, or the ones played online. I'm 34, my husband is 39. I couldn't tell you a SINGLE genre that isn't owned in our house, and that we haven't both tried. I've been involved in forums online regarding most of the RPGs out there (which are really my favorite), and have beta tested several games.

and why are you so thoroughly convinced that it's going to take women designers to make games that more women will like and thereby increase their numbers? You've talked as though you want more intellectually stimulating stuff. That stuff exists. Men develop most of that stuff. (Not that the number of women gamers needs to increase.)

And by the way, pretty much most of the male gamers I know are perfectly happy having the female gamers join them. And most of the male computer geeky people I know are perfectly happy to have the female computer geeky people join them too. I also know very, very few women who would ever be into something like designing games. Oh... and while you work at a school and are in contact with people in the business, I hang around some places that include a lot of those people, designers, programmers, etc. I don't see what you're talking about. The people I see in that business aren't any less relevant than the people you see in it.

They're happy to have them join in PLAYING the games. That makes them "cool". It also makes them an easy way for a guy that finds it hard to meet women to date to find women to date---NOT that I am saying that ALL gamers find it hard to find someone to date.

I never said the people you know are less valid. I said that based on what I see, on females trying to break into the field, that it's still a sexist field.

Honey--I don't know why I bother talking to you. I gave my opinion on why I thought women don't play video games as much as men do---but OBVIOUSLY, you know more about it than I do.

Good luck in life. I'm done with you.

[albear]

Saying there aren't many female game developers because they don't want to be is like saying there weren't many female doctors in the 1950s because women didn't WANT to be doctors.

It really isn't, that is an unfair comparrison synn

I don't have a problem with women NOT wanting to do it. However--I WORK with young women who enroll in the program and STATE that they leave the program because the men in the program push them out--that they are not taken seriously, and are given a hard time and sexist comments and basically made to NOT want to deal with the crap just to have a job in game design--they go on to other forms of programming or graphic design much of the time. Less than 2% of our Game Design graduates are female, though about 10% of applicants are female.

Maybe that's because they don't make the grades required, think about it you seem to have a know about how many people try to become games programmers/designers, how many of those don't make the grades, it seems to me as though your suggesting that shouldn't apply to females in that category and that all 10% (as you say) should become graduates, when couldn't that be simply because other people have better grades/marks

I have to agree with morgaine saying we males would be grateful for more female game programmers/designers on our course, but it seems that the programming and geames design courses aren't as preferable as others (from my experience a lot of the females interested in developing games go into the desgn side and not the programming side) when they go to university/college the course is there for them to choose, but very few do (compared to males)

So I think it's a choice of the females of today and not sexism in the field which determins how many female game developers there are.

[REDQU33N]

<-- Female Game Design college graduate and video game player.


I was the only female that graduated with my class because I grew up with the type of people I had to go to school with for 3 years straight. I am completely desensitized to the sexism I had to put up with.

It didn't take long for those boys to find out I wasn't there to play pokemon and world of warcraft with them-- I was there to MAKE games. The other women that only lasted a quarter or two were either closet-cases that weren't used to that much unwanted attention from boys, or they were the "halo fangirls" that pretend to play just for attention and realized that going to school for games wasn't the same as playing them.


SO.. to answer your question. "Why are there so few female gamers?"

THERE ISN'T. Female gamers make up MORE THAN HALF of the total gamers in this world. They just aren't playing the mindless "POINT AND SHOOT" games that SOME PEOPLE think constitute as "games. "

The Sims, Sorority Life, World Of Warcraft, Rock Band, Cooking Mama, Halo, Call of Duty, Super Mario Bros, CASINO GAMES---- ALL games.

Sexist.

[morgaine300]

maybe that's because they don't make the grades required, think about it you seem to have a know about how many people try to become games programmers/designers, how many of those don't make the grades, it seems to me as though your suggesting that shouldn't apply to females in that category and that all 10% (as you say) should become graduates, when couldn't that be simply because other people have better grades/marks

That's a good point I hadn't thought of. A lot of times when people quote things like that, they pull it out of context, and also make an assumption as to the reasoning behind it. All schools have drop-outs, whether it be because they couldn't make the grades, or had to take a full-time job and never found time, or whatever reason. People drop out of all programs and without a comparison, it's meaningless.

so I think it's a choice of the females of today and not sexism in the field which determins how many female game developers there are.

I suspect it's a combination of the two. But a lack of interest in that area I'm fairly sure has a lot to do with it. I can just tell by the kind of women I meet -- I too work at a college so I meet people with all sorts of interest and that kind of area just isn't common for the women.

[morgaine300]

So... now *I* am not a "mature woman" because I like those games? I'll be sure to pass that on to my 30 something friends--male AND female--who play those games.

I said they 'weren't likely' to like them. That does not mean a) that no one does, or b) that you're immature if you do like them. The fact that many mature female players would not like those games does NOT draw the conclusion that if you do like them then you're not a mature women. I bet most guys don't like them either. So by that logic, if they do like them, they are both immature and gay, right?

Jeez, I play Nancy Drew games, which were meant for teenage girls.

Oh, and by the way, you are the one who used the term "idiotic."

Perhaps you should see what the game is ACTUALLY about before passing judgement, hmm?

YOU, my dear, are the one who said all the "teens" were playing them, and that your "teen" cousins loved them, and then started talking about some 7 year old relative. Not that that means older women aren't playing them, but you're the one who put all the stress on the girls playing that stuff, not I. I don't care about any specific game -- I was just meaning the whole lump sum of that type of stuff. There can always be exceptions.

Besides, I want nothing to do with Facebook to start with.

I've been playing video games on the computer since 1996 (which is when I got my first computer). My husband and I own every console system ever put out except the Wii and the Nintendo 64. I have a 500 disc CD rack in the computer room FULL of games---and that isn't counting the console games, of which there is another rack in the living room holding 300 more. This isn't counting the games downloaded on each of the 4 computers in the house, or the ones played online. I'm 34, my husband is 39. I couldn't tell you a SINGLE genre that isn't owned in our house, and that we haven't both tried. I've been involved in forums online regarding most of the RPGs out there (which are really my favorite), and have beta tested several games.

Hmm, that's nice. Well, obviously then you realize that something besides girl games and shooters exist. So then why is it that when I say I'm not into the girl games, you draw the conclusion that I must think shooters are more intellectually challenging? There is ZIPPO logic in that conclusion. And there are more types of games than that. My brain says you know that. But your conclusion says you don't know that. Despite all those games you've got.

I've beta tested games too. Who the heck cares? What's that got to do with anything?

They're happy to have them join in PLAYING the games.

I believe I also said that there were developers and programmers on those groups, and they were perfectly happy to include the women also. That must have slipped your mind while you were busy insisting that everything's sexist.

I gave my opinion on why I thought women don't play video games as much as men do---but OBVIOUSLY, you know more about it than I do.

Originally all I did was give some simple opinions back. Then you decided to answer my "question" about why younger girls don't play them... while I mentioned it, I never asked why cause I don't care why. And your explanation of why younger girls don't play games more is to tell me how they're "dominating" Facebook games and "love" all that stuff. That doesn't really sound like a valid reason that they don't play games. I mean, huh?

And that women prefer more intellectually stimulating stuff. Well, that stuff exists so that doesn't sound very valid either.

Your valid reasons were that it's all sexist (I don't totally agree but at least it's valid) and women are too busy with kids and household stuff, and I merely said that obviously wasn't the whole story.

Then then you started getting offended over stuff I never said...

[REDQU33N]

I like how that internet Special Olympics guy was in too much of a hurry to slam on Synn that he didn't bother to read my post.. which is straight from the "horses mouth". Nice. *claps for morgaine* Now that you've won all of the internets, maybe you should get a Facespace account and tell all of your friends?

[morgaine300]

<-- Female Game Design college graduate and video game player.

So, did you actually manage to get into designing? Just curious cause I know it's a competitive field. (For men too.) I've known some programmers (not designers) who have wanted to get into games and just could never get a job in it.

And if you are in it, be curious what you've worked on. But I wouldn't want you to have to reveal where you work or anything. Doesn't keep me from being curious though. ;)

It didn't take long for those boys to find out I wasn't there to play pokemon and world of warcraft with them-- I was there to MAKE games.

Sometimes the only way to get yourself taken seriously is to just be serious. Eventually they get a clue I guess.

[morgaine300]

I like how that internet Special Olympics guy was in too much of a hurry to slam on Synn that he didn't bother to read my post.. which is straight from the "horses mouth". Nice.

Um... he posted like five hours before you did.

[morgaine300]

Not to mention he didn't exactly "slam" on her. He said he thought she was making an unfair comparison, and then politely gave his opinion on a couple of things. That's hardly slamming.

[albear]

Um... he posted like five hours before you did.

Did she mean me by 'internet special olympics guy'?

Because I don't get the link?

[morgaine300]

did she mean me by 'internet special olympics guy'?

because i dont get the link?

I didn't think her post made much sense either, but you were the only "guy" who posted recently.