[paraclete]

In chapter 5 of Job we do see the contempt for praying to the saints being stated by Eliphas. Eliphaz, Baldad and Sophar are three friends of Job. Eliphaz was a sage, Baidad and Sophar were well regarded Arabian leaders. But, Eliphas is mocking Job (maybe goading is a better word), in an attempt to get Job to confess his sins. It’s obvious from the narrative that Job’s neighbors are worried that the curse placed on Job will also visit them. But, Job is patient in his suffering – which is the moral of the story. Also see CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Job

Chapter 1. Job's virtue and riches. Satan by permission from God strippeth him of all his substance. His patience.
Chapter 2. Satan, by God's permission, striketh Job with ulcers from head to foot: his patience is still invincible.
Chapter 3. Job expresseth his sense of the miseries of man's life, by cursing the day of his birth.
Chapter 4. Eliphas charges Job with impatience, and pretends that God never afflicts the innocent.
Chapter 5. Eliphaz proceeds in his charge, and exhorts Job to acknowledge his sins.
Chapter 6. Job maintains his innocence, and complains of his friends.
Chapter 7. Job declares the miseries of man's life: and addresses himself to God.
Chapter 8. Baldad, under pretence of defending the justice of God, accuses Job, and exhorts him to return to God.
Chapter 9. Job acknowledges God's justice: although he often afflicts the innocent.
Chapter 10. Job laments his afflictions and begs to be delivered.
Chapter 11. Sophar reproves Job, for justifying himself, and invites him to repentance.
And finally,
Chapter 42. Job submits himself. God pronounces in his favour. Job offers sacrifice for his friends. He is blessed with riches and children, and dies happily,
Source: NEW ADVENT BIBLE: Job

If verses 2, 3 and 4 in chapter 5 of Job are meant to show the folly of praying to an intercessor then there is a conflict with the entire book of Job; God appears to be schizophrenic. This is apparent when God dresses down Eliphaz for his foolish advice to Job. God tells Eliphaz to go to Job and have intercede on his behalf.

…he [the Lord] said to Eliphaz the Themanite: My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends, because you have not spoken the thing that is right before me, as my servant Job hath. Take unto you therefore seven oxen and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer for yourselves a holocaust, and my servant Job shall pray for you: his face I will accept, that folly be not imputed to you: for you have not spoken right things before me, as my servant Job hath. (Job 42:7-8)

JoeT

All you have proven here is that Fred has offered us a foolish interpretation of the words in Job

[JoeT777]

all you have proven here is that Fred has offered us a foolish interpretation of the words in Job

Not that it matters but Fred didn't offer the verse first in this discussion. It's been the accepted interpretation of Job since Christ founded the Catholic Church. It teaches that it is proper to honor certain relics, and to pray for intercession and invocation of saints. The Council of Trent

I think Fred is quite wise to follow a real authorty; however there are a few others here that foolishly substitute their own authority over, and interpretation of Scripture.

JoeT

[paraclete]

Not that it matters but Fred didn’t offer the verse first in this discussion. It’s been the accepted interpretation of Job since Christ founded the Catholic Church. It teaches that it is proper to honor certain relics, and to pray for intercession and invocation of saints. The Council of Trent

I think Fred is quite wise to follow a real authorty; however there are a few others here that foolishly substitute their own authority over, and interpretation of Scripture.

JoeT

Whoever offered us that interpretation of the verse in Job has made a foolish interpretation, I don't care how much tradition is involved or how much authority they or you think they have

[JoeT777]

whoever offered us that interpretation of the verse in Job has made a foolish interpretation, I don't care how much tradition is involved or how much authority they or you think they have

I offered this line (Job 5:1) first to explain how in Job's day it was common to pray to saints. Apparently it's the first sound exegesis you've seen. You might want to study it; I've attached it here just for your understanding. I realize it might be difficult, but you'll see, it doesn't take distorting other portions of the bible to make our understanding sound and logical.

In chapter 5 of Job we do see the contempt for praying to the saints being stated by Eliphas. Eliphaz, Baldad and Sophar are three friends of Job. Eliphaz was a sage, Baidad and Sophar were well regarded Arabian leaders. But, Eliphas is mocking Job (maybe goading is a better word), in an attempt to get Job to confess his sins. It's obvious from the narrative that Job's neighbors are worried that the curse placed on Job will also visit them. But, Job is patient in his suffering – which is the moral of the story. Also see CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Job

Chapter 1. Job's virtue and riches. Satan by permission from God strippeth him of all his substance. His patience.
Chapter 2. Satan, by God's permission, striketh Job with ulcers from head to foot: his patience is still invincible.
Chapter 3. Job expresseth his sense of the miseries of man's life, by cursing the day of his birth.
Chapter 4. Eliphas charges Job with impatience, and pretends that God never afflicts the innocent.
Chapter 5. Eliphaz proceeds in his charge, and exhorts Job to acknowledge his sins.
Chapter 6. Job maintains his innocence, and complains of his friends.
Chapter 7. Job declares the miseries of man's life: and addresses himself to God.
Chapter 8. Baldad, under pretence of defending the justice of God, accuses Job, and exhorts him to return to God.
Chapter 9. Job acknowledges God's justice: although he often afflicts the innocent.
Chapter 10. Job laments his afflictions and begs to be delivered.
Chapter 11. Sophar reproves Job, for justifying himself, and invites him to repentance.
And finally,
Chapter 42. Job submits himself. God pronounces in his favour. Job offers sacrifice for his friends. He is blessed with riches and children, and dies happily,
Source: NEW ADVENT BIBLE: Job

If verses 2, 3 and 4 in chapter 5 of Job are meant to show the folly of praying to an intercessor then there is a conflict with the entire book of Job; God appears to be schizophrenic. This is apparent when God dresses down Eliphaz for his foolish advice to Job. God tells Eliphaz to go to Job and have intercede on his behalf.

…he [the Lord] said to Eliphaz the Themanite: My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends, because you have not spoken the thing that is right before me, as my servant Job hath. Take unto you therefore seven oxen and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer for yourselves a holocaust, and my servant Job shall pray for you: his face I will accept, that folly be not imputed to you: for you have not spoken right things before me, as my servant Job hath. (Job 42:7-8)

JoeT

JoeT

[paraclete]

I offered this line (Job 5:1) first to explain how in Job’s day it was common to pray to saints. Apparently its the first sound exegesis you've seen. You might want to study it; I’ve attached it here just for your understanding. I realize it might be difficult, but you’ll see, it doesn’t take distorting other portions of the bible to make our understanding sound and logical.


JoeT

Do you actually have any idea what Job's day might have been like? Job was, it appears, a contemporary of Abraham. He lived in a time when there was sparse population, few believers and he was the priest of his household. There were no saints to pray to. If he prayed to anyone other than Father God it would have been to lesser deities described in a correct translation of the text as holy ones. The passage actually says that Job won't get any help from that source. I suggest you take to reading the whole of Job to place it all in context

The saints didn't exist in Job's day so what you are suggesting is he was into some sort of ancestor worship or paganism. Hardly likely. Using the Old Testament to justify concepts which arose after Jesus death and the New Testament was written is not a great idea. What you are trying to do is justify a Catholic viewpoint for which there is no Biblical confirmation.

[arcura]

paraclete,
In that verse Jesus was talking about saints who passed this life centuries before he was born.
AND I agree with Joe, and Jesus and the bible
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sndbay]

Jesus and the bible
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Then read HIS WORDS of the bible



1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

As the underline shows, this applies to those who truely believe in the Son of God.

John 15:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us

Confidence that is trust in Christ.

1 John 15:15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

"IF" is the underline truth that can rest in HIS glory for every man's heart and mind of choice. "IF" we know HE hears us.
Truth of God's Will

2 Corinthians 2:8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.

Hebrew 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.


Fred, those of us here are saying follow Christ.. Ask yourself, if we are wrong to follow Christ ? Are we wrong is having confidence and trust in Christ? Where does the bible tell us to put our trust?

[sndbay]

It teaches that it is proper to honor certain relics, and to pray for intercession and invocation of saints. The Council of Trent

JoeT

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

This scripture is proof that indicates Mary and saints cannot be mediators.

The Scriptures also tell us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father, "Therefore He is able to save those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them"

REFER:
Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore HE is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by HIM, seeing HE ever liveth to make intercession for them.


The Council of Trent should have considered the HOLY SPIRIT because scripture says the Holy Spirit makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. And let us remember the saints are spoken of in refer: (Romans 1:7) as all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints

REFER:
Romans 8:25-26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

[classyT]

It's a classic story, in which praying to the saints plays an important role. Take that out and Job's trials mean nothing.

JoeT

You've rendered me speechless with these two statement. Lucky for you, I can still type. :D You missed the entire point of Job if THAT is what you got out of it.

However, once again I am enlightened on why catholics believe the way they do.

BUT:
Psst. JoeT... incidently, My Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ DID NOT start the catholic church. I submit to you that the catholic church is a MAN made institution or "religion". The ONLY religion that the Lord put his stamp of approval on was Judism. Christianity is NOT a church, not a religion, NOT a denomination. It is believing that Jesus WAS God ( and fully man too), lived a sinless life, he died to redeem mankind, and he rose again so that we ( those that believe) could be justified... ( just as if we had NEVER sinned). It is faith in THIS that puts us into the body of Christ ( the church) and ONLY this. Just sos YOU know... :) If you want to know how the "church" should behave, please read the Apostle Pauls' epistles. In them, you will find NO mention of Peter being the first POPE, no mention of Mary being something MORE than an obedient servant to the MOST HIGH,and certainly NO mention of praying to ANY saint.

IN fact, I would challenge you to find any prayer... to a SAINT as an example for US in the OT or NT. ( not some Catholic bible) The Lord Jesus HIMSELF... taught us how to pray. Please also refer to the Apostle Paul's prayers.. not a ONE to a "saint". Now please refer to the OT... how many prayers to a saint is recorded? There is ZIPPOOOOO. In fact, the Jews were instructed NOT to talk to the dead (physically speaking) and I refer you once again to the first King of Israel, who went to the Witch of Endor to speak directly to the prophet of God.. SAMUEL. First Samuel, WAS NOT AMUSED by the disturbance, he was spirtually alive, the so called "witch" was scared spitless and Saul ended up a dead man. You are CORRECT in thinking God isn't.. how do you put it? "Schizophrenic". He does NOT tell a person to pray to the physically DEAD... not now, not EVER. For what power do they have.. Are they God? Are they all knowing? Please... all a "saint" is... is a person who had faith in the Lord Jesus Christ... and his finished work. They cannot do ONE thing. I submit to YOU, that Mary and any other so called "saint" ( because I don't believe Catholics even know what a SAINT is... do you understand that I am a considered a SAINT according the NT)? Was nothing more than a sinful man or woman in need of a savior AND had faith in the LORD and his finished work at calvary.

This is one of the ways we "rightly divide" the word of God. Does it line up with other scripture... like the one you insist is in Job? No it does not. Peter, ( the catholics personal favorite) was the one who wrote that NO scripture was for PRIVATE interpratation.

Now do I think you are going to say... "wow that ClassyT has a point"? NOPE!. I don't. But I still had to speak up... ( or type up ) just the same. :)

Peace and Kindness,

Tess

[450donn]

Amen Tess. And on that note, because this thread has digressed into... Maybe it is time that one of the moderators step in and close it!

[JoeT777]

You've rendered me speechless with these two statement. Lucky for you, I can still type. :D You missed the entire point of Job if THAT is what you got out of it.

My rendering was in reference to praying to saints - the proposition being discussed here.

IN fact, I would challenge you to find any prayer... to a SAINT

The connection of the faithful in the Church of Jesus Christ spans across the gulf of death and includes both those on earth and in heaven. See the requested scriptural examples of saints interceding, being prayed to, and the faithful told to pray that they intercede for them:

Bless the Lord, all ye his angels: you that are mighty in strength, and execute his word, hearkening to the voice of his orders. Bless the Lord, all ye his hosts: you ministers of his that do his will. Bless the Lord, all his works: in every place of his dominion, O my soul, bless thou the Lord. (Psalm 103:20-22)

The angles and saints are asked to raise their voice in prayer in praise at God’s command. These angles and saints are ‘ministers’; they minster to His Church.

Praise ye the Lord from the heavens: praise ye him in the high places. Praise ye him, all his angels, praise ye him, all his hosts. (Psalm 148)

Why do we praise the angels and saints if they are dead, unable to assist those in the Mystical Body of Christ on earth?

Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes a brother, 2 To the church of God that is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that invoke the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place of theirs and ours. 3 Grace to you and peace, from God our father and from the Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor 1:1)

By all prayer and supplication praying at all times in the spirit: and in the same watching with all instance and supplication for all the saints: (Eph 6:18)

From whom the whole body, being compacted and fitly joined together, by what every joint supplieth, according to the operation in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body, unto the edifying of itself in charity. (Eph 4:16)

Now the vision was in this manner. Onias, who had been high priest, a good and virtuous man, modest in his looks, gentle in his manners, and graceful in speech, and who from a child was exercised in virtues holding up his hands, prayed for all the people of the Jews: After this there appeared also another man, admirable for age, and glory, and environed with great beauty and majesty: Then Onias answering, said: This is a lover of his brethren, and of the people of Israel: this is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God. ( 2 Mac 15: 12-15)

And Peter answering, said to Jesus: Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. And let us make three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. (Mark 9:4)

Why make a booth for Moses and Elias? They are saints in heaven, ministering to the head of the Body of Christ.

And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. (Apoc. 5:8)

The saints in heaven intercede for the faithful on earth with prayers to Christ.

And another angel came and stood before the altar, having a golden censer: and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints, upon the golden altar which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel. (Apoc 8:3-4)

JoeT

[Unknown008]

Amen Tess. And on that note, because this thread has digressed into... Maybe it is time that one of the moderators step in and close it!

Hey! No no no! I think that the thread is still in line with the main topic, about statues, and pictures representing saints to which catholics pray. I find the conversation very interesting. I would like that the thread remains open. It is as interesting for me to know how catholics think about it too.

If however, the thread were to close, I would like to thanks all of you in here; sndbay, Tess, paraclete, Rick, Clough, Chuck, donn, JoeT, Fred, Athos and Akoue.

And Peter answering, said to Jesus: Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. And let us make three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. (Mark 9:4)

Why make a booth for Moses and Elias? They are saints in heaven, ministering to the head of the Body of Christ.

Here, Peter saw Moses and Elias, and thought that they were physically there with them. Anyway, if you go on reading, Peter finally did not make the tabernacles.

Bless the Lord, all ye his angels: you that are mighty in strength, and execute his word, hearkening to the voice of his orders. Bless the Lord, all ye his hosts: you ministers of his that do his will. Bless the Lord, all his works: in every place of his dominion, O my soul, bless thou the Lord. (Psalm 103:20-22)

Praise ye the Lord from the heavens: praise ye him in the high places. Praise ye him, all his angels, praise ye him, all his hosts. (Psalm 148)

Here you'll see that it dos not only include these, but also the sun, moon and stars. Does that mean that you are praying to them? My opinion is no. I think that these are meant to express your gratitude, by saying that even the other creations of the Lord have to be thankful to God.

By all prayer and supplication praying at all times in the spirit: and in the same watching with all instance and supplication for all the saints: (Eph 6:18)

Strange, my bible talks about the 'people of God' here instead of the saints. Could someone confirm please?

And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. (Apoc. 5:8)

And another angel came and stood before the altar, having a golden censer: and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints, upon the golden altar which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel. (Apoc 8:3-4)

Here the prayers concerned are of the saints, not to the saints... :confused:

[450donn]

Since this has turned into a Catholics defending their practices or praying to "saints" statues, pictures etc vs no Catholics trying to figure out why and how it is justified. Aall I can say about this is that as far as I am concerned there is no place in the bible where God condones prayer/worship to anyone or anything except to HIM! Anybody that tries to pray to/through someone/something other than God is sadly mistaken. We are not even suppose to pray to Jesus.
To me it is kind of like going to my brother to ask him for something that only my father has the power to grant. Kind of dumb!
Are Catholics wrong when it comes to their idol/statue fetish? No one can know for certain except the Father and we will not be privy to that bit of information until the Rapture and Judgment day!

[sndbay]

Strange, my bible talks about the 'people of God' here instead of the saints. Could someone confirm please?

Sure,

REFER:
Eph 6:18-19-20 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

Because of what (And for me) and (all the saints) were up against at that time, SEE REFER:
Acts 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

[sndbay]

Since this has turned into a Catholics defending their practices or praying to "saints" statues, pictures etc vs no Catholics trying to figure out why and how it is justified. Aall I can say about this is that as far as I am concerned there is no place in the bible where God condones prayer/worship to anyone or anything except to HIM! Anybody that tries to pray to/through someone/something other than God is sadly mistaken. We are not even suppose to pray to Jesus.

AND

Most do not understand what is meant by: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit

Off Thread (but true)

[JoeT777]

Since this has turned into a Catholics defending their practices or praying to "saints" statues, pictures etc.

I'm not defending anything, I'm explaining. There's a world of difference. Specific questions were asked, and specific answers were given. The original proposition asked why Catholics believe a certain way. If a Southern Baptist or a Lutheran answered the question about Catholic faith you’d get a distorted view of the Truth, wouldn't you?

I don't see how we are out of bounds here.

JoeT

[JoeT777]

Here, Peter saw Moses and Elias, and thought that they were physically there with them. Anyway, if you go on reading, Peter finally did not make the tabernacles.

The example wasn't so much to show what was done, but that the Apostles and Christ 'communed' with the saints. Whether the tabernacles (tents) were built wasn't as important as the fact that God sent saints to intercede on His behalf.

Here you'll see that it dos not only include these, but also the sun, moon and stars. Does that mean that you are praying to them? My opinion is no. I think that these are meant to express your gratitude, by saying that even the other creations of the Lord have to be thankful to God.

Good grief, no it doesn't mean the moon and sun prayed. You're absolutely right; it's a metaphor to say that all of God's creation prayed.

Strange, my bible talks about the 'people of God' here instead of the saints. Could someone confirm please?

The King James Version uses 'saints'. The Vulgate uses 'sanctis' (saints): per omnem orationem et obsecrationem orantes omni tempore in spiritu: et in ipso vigilantes in omni instantia et obsecratione pro omnibus sanctis:

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,
King James Bible
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
American King James Version
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
American Standard Version
With all prayer and supplication praying at all seasons in the Spirit, and watching thereunto in all perseverance and supplication for all the saints,
Douay-Rheims Bible
By all prayer and supplication praying at all times in the spirit; and in the same watching with all instance and supplication for all the saints:
Darby Bible Translation
Praying at all seasons, with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching unto this very thing with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints;
English Revised Version
With all prayer and supplication praying at all seasons in the Spirit, and watching thereunto in all perseverance and supplication for all the saints,
Webster's Bible Translation
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching for this purpose with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
World English Bible
With all prayer and requests, praying at all times in the Spirit, and being watchful to this end in all perseverance and requests for all the saints:
Young's Literal Translation
Through all prayer and supplication praying at all times in the Spirit, and in regard to this same, watching in all perseverance and supplication for all the saints –

Source: Ephesians 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

The Greek lexicon (same link) uses the Greek word 'hagios': hag'-ee-os: sacred (physically, pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially, consecrated) -- (most) holy (one, thing), saint. I can't explain why your bible reads differently.

I think most of the translations agree – we're talking about 'saints'.

Here the prayers concerned are of the saints, not to the saints... :confused:

The point here was that the saints were presenting God with prayers. Whose prayers were they? They were already in heaven and didn't need to petition God. It's more than reasonable to understand that the petitions presented were those of the Church Militant (from people on earth).

Catholics hold that our faith in Christ is nourished in the Church. The Church teaches from both the Holy Scriptures and Apostolic Tradition, those things taught by the Apostles. Furthermore Catholics hold that Holy Scripture is a special case of Apostolic Tradition. Accordingly, Catholics hold that both Scripture and Tradition must be in harmony. The doctrine of the Church teaches praying to the saints (capital 'T' is usual to distinguish between those customs formed in various regions or Catholic rites) I've only cited a few cases on this thread – it's usually not appreciated by those who self-interpret the bible and hold that authority as the only authority in such matters.

In this case a council was held in the mid 1500's that has become known as the Council of Trent. This Council was an affirmation of earlier Councils dating back to Christ. It clearly states that from antiquities, that the saints are to be honored or venerated.

ON THE INVOCATION, VENERATION, AND RELICS, OF SAlNTS, AND ON SACRED IMAGES.

The holy Synod enjoins on all bishops, and others who sustain the office and charge of teaching, that, agreeably to the usage of the Catholic and Apostolic Church, received from the primitive times of the Christian religion, and agreeably to the consent of the holy Fathers, and to the decrees of sacred Councils, they especially instruct the faithful diligently concerning the intercession and invocation of saints; the honour (paid) to relics; and the legitimate use of images: teaching them, that the saints, who reign together with Christ, offer up their own prayers to God for men; that it is good and useful suppliantly to invoke them, and to have recourse to their prayers, aid, (and) help for obtaining benefits from God, through His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, who is our alone Redeemer and Saviour; but that they think impiously, who deny that the saints, who enjoy eternal happiness in heaven, are to be invocated; or who assert either that they do not pray for men; or, that the invocation of them to pray for each of us even in particular, is idolatry; or, that it is repugnant to the word of God; and is opposed to the honour of the one mediator of God and men, Christ Jesus; or, that it is foolish to supplicate, vocally, or mentally, those who reign in heaven. Also, that the holy bodies of holy martyrs, and of others now living with Christ,-which bodies were the living members of Christ, and the temple of the Holy Ghost, and which are by Him to be raised unto eternal life, and to be glorified,--are to be venerated by the faithful; through which (bodies) many benefits are bestowed by God on men; so that they who affirm that veneration and honour are not due to the relics of saints; or, that these, and other sacred monuments, are uselessly honoured by the faithful; and that the places dedicated to the memories of the saints are in vain visited with the view of obtaining their aid; are wholly to be condemned, as the

Church has already long since condemned, and now also condemns them. Moreover, that the images of Christ, of the Virgin Mother of God, and of the other saints, are to be had and retained particularly in temples, and that due honour and veneration are to be given them; not that any divinity, or virtue, is believed to be in them, on account of which they are to be worshipped; or that anything is to be asked of them; or, that trust is to be reposed in images, as was of old done by the Gentiles who placed their hope in idols; but because the honour which is shown them is referred to the prototypes which those images represent; in such wise that by the images which we kiss, and before which we uncover the head, and prostrate ourselves, we adore Christ; and we venerate the saints, whose similitude they bear: as, by the decrees of Councils, and especially of the second Synod of Nicaea, has been defined against the opponents of images. The Council of Trent The Twenty-Fifth Session

JoeT

[arcura]

sndbay,
What's the problem?
I do read and believe what Jesus said. It has nothing to do with statues ot icons of any sort.
If it did you would be at fault with carrying pictures in your purse or wallet or even having a photo album.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sndbay]

1 Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

All faith and righteousness through Christ Jesus

All grace and mercy through Christ Jesus

All light and renewing of the Holy Ghost shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour

All hope of salvation and eternal life through Jesus Christ

All prayer and supplication in the spirit/ stand fast in one spirit

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1 Corinthains 5:3-4-5 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

All prayer and supplication, in the Spirit has been gifted the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. (Romans 8:15)

~In the spirit of Lord Jesus Christ Amen

[Golden_Girl]

Praising or praying in front of a painting, statue, animals, other persons, or any other objects. That is all idol worship. There are no "ifs", "ands", or "buts" about it.

"Do those who disbelieve think that they can get away with setting up My servants as gods beside Me? We have prepared for the disbelievers Hell as an eternal abode." 18:102

"It has been revealed to you, and to those before you that if you ever commit idol worship, all your works will be nullified, and you will be with the losers." 39:65

"You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above..." Exodus 20:3-6