[DrJ]

How old is she?


Aside from that... just like for you, once the pain outweighs the pleasure, something will have to change... the same goes for her. She will always exhibit this behavior until she realizes pain that outweighs the pleasure.

[takeapicture]

I just need to know I'm not crazy or un-fun or too controlling. As I said in the beginning, I'm starting to feel manipulated. Like most of you, I don't see this behavior changing. It just sucks, you know. This is a huge problem, but pretty much our only problem. There is respect there though, granted it's on her terms, but if you saw the way she ran up to me, every time I showed up with that look in her eyes, you'd know she respected me.

[Survivor07]

I Wish, sorry to keep fighting with you, but you seem full of cliched relationship advice. Obviously I don't need to be convinced that the lack of communication is unhealthy (I'm posting on askmehelpdesk). I don't need the obvious pointed out.

But it is a cliché relationship problem---if he/she would just do this or change that...

I guess I don't need to tell you that your girlfriend should be enough for you for who she is right now. Never count on them to change for you.

Self-improvement is what she needs to work on, as she treats everyone like this, but only she can self-improve herself.

It's up to you if you can love her the way she is and be accepting of her behavior and be happy with it.

[takeapicture]

We are both 27. Way too old for this High School/ College crap.

I know I can't change her. I do love her the way she is, but if it continues, I'll probably die of a heart attack before I'm 30.

I've never been in this situation. I'd take a bullet for her, but I'm losing my mind as well. Usually, I break up with someone because I'm no longer in love.

[I wish]

I'm saying she does this with everyone. Her parents told me so. They said she has always rebelled and refuses to give in.

So it's in her personality. It doesn't look like she's going to change anytime soon. If you provoke her, it will make things worse.

I Wish, sorry to keep fighting with you, but you seem full of cliched relationship advice.

Don't worry about the fighting. We're having a discussion. It's easy to get fustrated when talking about these things. No harm done.

However, I did have a similar relationship for 2 years. I won't repeat all the things you've listed. I still really care about my ex and we broke up because of these types of problems. I realized these problems after 6 months into the relationship, but I tried to be patient for another year and a half. When I felt little or no progress after a year and a half, I knew I had to let go, regardless of how I felt about her. But I had it better than you, because my ex was willing to try to work it out. We always had adult conversations, we never avoided confrontation. But our opinions were too different, so nor matter how hard we worked, it wasn't going to change anything.

But as you know, everyone is different. Maybe you have more patience than the rest of us. Just because we had similar situations, doesn't mean it will turn out the same way. If you really want it to work out, then just be patient with her. Give her time to learn things on her own. She might come around one day.

I know I can't change her. I do love her the way she is, but if it continues, I'll probably die of a heart attack before I'm 30.

That's why we're being hard on you. There's no reason for you to suffer like this.

If you can handle it, no one will stop you. Just realize that you have options. You're not stuck. You're not trapped.

[DrJ]

We are both 27. Way too old for this High School/ College crap.

Indeed!

And yes, it is somewhat of a cliché problem... but I was married to a girl that was VERY similar to this. It's not so much that there is something that we don't like that we want changed.. it's that we are dealing with an emotionally immature (maybe I should say OVERLY emotionally immature.. since we are all a little) woman... one that is completely unwilling to look at themselves or even think about self-improvement (which I don't care who you are, we should always be focused on self-improvement).

So a lot of the simple stuff doesn't work. And when you love someone, you are willing to deal with a lot of pain in hopes that things will get better. The problem comes when you lose hope that things will ever change.

Sure, she/they may never change and they will likely end up alone or with someone with even lower self-esteem that caters to their every need.


It is selfishness at it's finest.

[takeapicture]

I know I have options (I'm lucky in that department), but I really built this one up to be the end all, be all. Why can't she see this behavior is so detrimental? I can't imagine a guy in the world that would actually stick by this girl unchanged.

[DrJ]

How do you think she would react if you broke it off?

1) It's unhealthy and you know that you won't be happy in this life if it continues.

2) That may just be the pain that she needs to take a closer look at herself.

Of course, it is highly likely that she will react negatively and blame you. But that's when you refer back to #1.

EDIT: Im not advising an ultimatum.. that is bad. But actually taking the step to break it off and being prepared to deal with the consequences if you two are never together again.

[takeapicture]

I broke up with her once before. She acted indifferent, but called me all the time, drove to my house several times, called my friends all the time. Eventually she showed up one day with concert tickets for a band I love. I said this doesn't fix our problems and she said she's doing the best she can.

Unfortunately, no real heart to heart took place. I imagine I'll deal with something similar.

[taoplr]

I just need to know I'm not crazy or un-fun or too controlling. As I said in the beginning, I'm starting to feel manipulated. Like most of you, I don't see this behavior changing. It just sucks, you know. This is a huge problem, but pretty much our only problem. There is respect there though, granted it's on her terms, but if you saw the way she ran up to me, every time I showed up with that look in her eyes, you'd know she respected me.

No, you are not crazy, too controlling, or un-funish. And yes, that look in her eyes says she feels a lot of affection for you. It would be wrong to say that this problem can't be solved, because it can. The question is at what cost. How much time will it take for her to resolve the unconscious issues that drive this behavior well enough for you to have the relationship that you need? The follow-up is whether you can figure out what it will take to get her into therapy, for herself and with you.

The missing bit of insight is that this is not immaturity; it is addiction. At least, it will be best to treat her pattern as though it were an addiction.

Since childhood, according to her parents, she has been this way. Some of it might come from a genetic predisposition for insecurity and this sort of controlling behavior, and some of it could be the result of childhood trauma. Most likely, she developed this pattern as a survival technique (I'm thinking abandonment), found that it "worked" (She didn't die) and also found that she liked the feeling of power she got (domination and control = power) and got addicted to it. When she's at her artistic best, she's the center of attention.

She has had a lot of practice at this. If you stay together, she will kick your butt in a dozen ways before she opens up. She will fight tooth and nail to keep you from stimulating a genuine change in her. She will keep everyone at arms length so as to secure her right to her addiction. That comes first, before people, learning, discovery, or fulfilling her life. Addicts will do anything to score.

The rest of your narrative is consistent: refusing to have a genuine conversation about your issues and concerns,(denial) crying or getting angry when you try to talk about this, (diversion tactics) seeming indifferent about breaking up, then calling many times before becoming creative and seducing you with tickets to a concert she knows you will like, all behaviors and tactics that addicts use.

Regarding respect, you should know that active addicts and small children don't understand respect for people. They can love, fear, become attached, and have other bonds with people but they only respect (revere, put first) their source of survival. For the child it is Mom's comfort and food; for those who are addicted to anything, it is the drug, behavior, fetish, or whatever the agent is. They can't give the respect you are talking about. The child hasn't had time to develop a model for it, and the addict's model has been compromised. People are simply the means to at fix.

BTW, I consider virtually all human beings to be addicted to something or another. It's in our genes. Some addictions serve us better than others, though. Some harm other people, But, we're all addicts. Take a look at Amazon.com: When Society Becomes an Addict: Anne Wilson Schaef: Books

And while I'm on reading, look at:

Amazon.com: A General Theory of Love: Thomas Lewis, Fari Amini, Richard Lannon: Books

Amazon.com: Finding Meaning in the Second Half of Life: How to Finally, Really Grow Up: James Hollis: Books

All insight-producing, useful books.

So, what to do? You have got to let her know that you are where you are. Since this one pattern is enough that you are willing to call it quits, she must know. You have to be clear, uninhibited by her reactions, have evidence or examples, and be willing to plow through a swamp of attributions, accusations, evasions, and other forms of trickery—while all the time knowing that from her perspective, she is absolutely sincere—before you will get to solid ground.

If you get to the place where you are talking about the relationship, cool. "Solid ground" will be when you have established the roles, terms, and boundaries that you both agree upon and to which you both adhere. (I can explain R, T, & B if you wish.) To get there, she needs to be working on herself in a pretty intense manner, with a therapist, with a commitment, being curious about her inner workings and courageous about finding whatever she finds. This is where you ask "Do I really love her?" This is a multi-year project.

But if she won't talk, you have to be prepared to split and split for good. If you decide to do that, be aware of the things she might do to get you back, and short-circuit as many as you can. There's a little bit of stalker in her.

You will benefit from therapy as well, not so much in a remedial sense—you come off as pretty clean, but you never know—more in a sense of emptying yourself of all the negative, confused residue that this relationship leaves in you. This is a tough call, but the pattern you describe has a poor promise for the future. Whoever lives with her into her 40s and 50s will see it worsen.

tao

[talaniman]

I would have resentments too, if I allowed someone to dictate by her actions, and words, what she wants, while she ignores completely my concerns.

Its you, not her that have allowed her to brush aside what's important to you, such as communicating, and its you not her, that have allowed her tactics to work, WITHOUT CONSEQUENCE.

Point is, your actions have you pissed, and her doing what she wants. Not very equal.

Stop putting up with bad behavior, and instead of being swayed by concert tickets, say NO, that doesn't work for me. If she can't answer your questions, what's the consequences?? So far its you allowing your concerns to be brushed aside, instead of removing yourself from the situation.

You talk a lot of not being a doormat, but in reality she runs through you, and what your trying to say.

She would have pi$$ed me off with all the texting/calling, and it would take more than an olive branch to appease that, but thats just me.

If there are no consequences for her actions, there can be no motivation for her to make adjustments to you. That simple.

She may never change, but until she can show she is more than WILLING to work with you, to resolve your issues, you don't have a healthy adult relationship.

You have two people at war, fighting for control. That can't be fun.

If there is no honest communications going on, no wonder your in pain, confused, and worried about a heart attack by age 30, and your probably right.

I pass no judgment on her, as she is who she is, for WHATEVER reason, doesn't matter. How you deal with it is what counts and allowing her that much leeway with your heart is something you can fix, by not putting up with it. Thats what my plan of action would be, when she acts a fool, let her go!

You have a decision to make in light of all the facts you have about her, and YOU, and that's if all this is worth it in the long run. Either way it goes, its you who has to make the adjustments, and changes necessary for YOU to be happy.

Don't blame her, if your not!!!!!!

[takeapicture]

Jesus... Talaniman. Talk about a lecture. I'd take offense if I didn't think your intentions were good. "Two people at war" was a very accurate metaphor. I have tried every consequence I can. I know that ending this relationship is the only option I have. I am very strong willed, but I can't trump her irrationality. I can't fight with her if she cries and runs away. I can't "lay down the law" if she gives up and ignores it anyway. She accuses me of punishing her whenever I deliver consequences for her actions. The truth is, my life is stressful enough without having to worry about how I'm going to navigate this sea of $hit. I don't have the energy to figure her out anymore, I just don't care. You say she runs through me, but nothing I do stops her from doing what she does. I have to end it. It doesn't matter what I do, this push and pull will never end. I guess you could handle her though Tal, judging by your take charge post. I guess I don't have it in me to fight like this. It's ridiculous and insane. No one is worth this crap.

Taoplr, once again thank you.

"She has had a lot of practice at this. If you stay together, she will kick your butt in a dozen ways before she opens up. She will fight tooth and nail to keep you from stimulating a genuine change in her. She will keep everyone at arms length so as to secure her right to her addiction. That comes first, before people, learning, discovery, or fulfilling her life. Addicts will do anything to score."

This is gospel. She has kicked my butt. I can't beat her in this war of control. I have never dealt with so much manipulation and control in my life. Is she sincere when she cries? Or is that a tactic. It works. I don't cave in, but I stop arguing. I act indifferent and she starts sucking up again. I don't want to act indifferent all the time. I don't feel indifferent, it just works.

Every one has offered wonderful insight and I greatly appreciate it. Especially taoplr. I'm not dealing with a stable person here folks. Maybe you don't see it in my writing, but this goes beyond some alpha female complex testing my manhood. She is way up and way down. Way in and way out. When I try to talk about relationship issues she takes it as a personal assault. When she feels hurt by me she will cry "just tell me what to do to make you happy", but I don't believe she means it. It's just part of the drama. I have told her before when she asked that I want to be able to have adult conversations and she said I was trying to control her. How the hell do you respond to that Tal??

[taoplr]

Jesus... Talaniman. Talk about a lecture. I'd take offense if I didn't think your intentions were good. "Two people at war" was a very accurate metaphor. I have tried every consequence I can. I know that ending this relationship is the only option I have. I am very strong willed, but I can't trump her irrationality. I can't fight with her if she cries and runs away. I can't "lay down the law" if she gives up and ignores it anyway. She accuses me of punishing her whenever I deliver consequences for her actions. The truth is, my life is stressful enough without having to worry about how I'm going to navigate this sea of $hit. I don't have the energy to figure her out anymore, I just don't care. You say she runs through me, but nothing I do stops her from doing what she does. I have to end it. It doesn't matter what I do, this push and pull will never end. I guess you could handle her though Tal, judging by your take charge post. I guess I don't have it in me to fight like this. It's ridiculous and insane. No one is worth this crap.

Taoplr, once again thank you.

"She has had a lot of practice at this. If you stay together, she will kick your butt in a dozen ways before she opens up. She will fight tooth and nail to keep you from stimulating a genuine change in her. She will keep everyone at arms length so as to secure her right to her addiction. That comes first, before people, learning, discovery, or fulfilling her life. Addicts will do anything to score."

This is gospel. She has kicked my butt. I can't beat her in this war of control. I have never dealt with so much manipulation and control in my life. Is she sincere when she cries? Or is that a tactic. It works. I don't cave in, but I stop arguing. I act indifferent and she starts sucking up again. I don't want to act indifferent all the time. I don't feel indifferent, it just works.

Every one has offered wonderful insight and I greatly appreciate it. Especially taoplr. I'm not dealing with a stable person here folks. Maybe you don't see it in my writing, but this goes beyond some alpha female complex testing my manhood. She is way up and way down. Way in and way out. When I try to talk about relationship issues she takes it as a personal assault. When she feels hurt by me she will cry "just tell me what to do to make you happy", but I don't believe she means it. It's just part of the drama. I have told her before when she asked that I want to be able to have adult conversations and she said I was trying to control her. How the hell do you respond to that Tal????

Don't expect a rational exchange, at least one that you will recognize as rational.You and she have very different stories going on in your minds and are not sharing the same experience.

Your primary axiom might become "The meaning of the communication is the response it elicits." You're not going to like that, but you had better count on it. It means that what you say or intend doesn't matter. What she does with it—how she interprets it—matters because that's the reality she lives with, and that's the person you will be interacting with.

Whatever you say will trigger some aspect of her inner story and will not compute as an interpretable statement about you or your position on anything. Once you introduce the topic of breaking up, don't expect her to see you when she looks at you, or to hear your words when you speak. She will shift from whatever state she is in into ultra-defense mode. Everything will feed her conviction that she is being abandoned and will likely die.

Chances are, although you seem reasonably self aware and disciplined, some of you own stories will activate, some metaphors from within you that can be defensive. This is a good time to practice presence, awareness, mindfulness, and your best negotiating skills—not for her, but for the parts of you that can max out the learning in this experience, were they not engaged in defending their turf, their metaphor. You can update any of them by some self exploration.

Have to sign of now, although this line of thinking is incomplete. Let me know if it makes sense so far and if it interests you to pursue it further.

Tao

[talaniman]

How the hell do you respond to that Tal??

Tman's answer.
You have a decision to make in light of all the facts you have about her, and YOU, and that's if all this is worth it in the long run. Either way it goes, its you who has to make the adjustments, and changes necessary for YOU to be happy.

Don't blame her, if your not!!!!!!"

You can't handle her so leave, yes she may bull you for a while. So what, make a decision and stick to it. Disappear from her life. What are you afraid of this female, or what?? What are you waiting for? I wouldn't even feel bad.

That's what I mean't by adjustments and changes necessary for YOU to be happy.
.