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KISS · Apr 13, 2009, 09:27 AM

If you have a 1" port available, you can use it, but you'll have to reduce to 3/4 at the heater. It's a good use for a 1" port.

Stubits · Apr 14, 2009, 06:07 PM

Eventually the manifold will run the whole house. I probably won't repipe the whole thing quite yet.

In that case, what do I need to do with regards to the hot water heater? Can I repipe it to be 1"?

Stubits · May 13, 2009, 10:53 AM

Mark-

Long time no talk, hope you're doing well. Thanks again for all the help.

Got a couple more questions for you.

1) How can I figure out for sure if my current water main is 1" or 3/4". I am pretty confident it is 1", but would hate to buy materials and run the lines only to be wrong.

2) You were right, my water heater is only 3/4", do they make 1" water heaters, or is there anyway to increase the water heater supply/output to 1"?

3) The design of the bathrooms puts some plumbing on exterior walls. In these instances, am I better off running the water lines up through the floor as opposed to in the wall? That is to say bring the water line for the toilet up out of the floor, same for the vanities, to keep it in conditioned space? We get some freezing weather here in DC.

massplumber2008 · May 13, 2009, 02:18 PM

No 1" tappings on normal size residential water heaters so I would pipe 3/4" into and 3/4" out and run all from there....You won't be running that many fixtures at the same time that I would worry about this. Otherwise, you could run 1" pipes in and out, just not sure it's worth the money... however I see it done once inawhile.

Bring the pipes up through the floor... no question on that. Easy to do and never have to worry.

Circumference of 3/4" copper tubing is about 2-5/8"... 1" copper tubing is about 3.5" circumference... so that should help you determine size.

Keep 'em coming as needed.

Stubits · May 13, 2009, 06:02 PM

Excellent. Running the pipes through the floor won't be an issue at all, really. Thanks so much, I am guessing this saved me a fair amount of grief. Any issues with DWV pipes in exterior walls? Guessing no, but just to make sure.

massplumber2008 · May 13, 2009, 06:05 PM

No issue with PVC pipes in wall. I am sure you already know that no washing machine ptraps should be in any outside walls... just to be clear on issue!

Stubits · May 13, 2009, 07:03 PM

Because of the standing water, right? I think the only PVC in an exterior wall will be a horizontal run for the 2nd story lav.

massplumber2008 · May 14, 2009, 04:01 AM

Correct... because of the standing water... ;)

The lavatory pipe will be fine as long as it is pitched to 1/4" per foot. I end up with lavs. And kitchen drains in outside walls all the time... so you will be fine here!

Stubits · Jun 7, 2009, 06:22 PM

Hey Mark. Hope you're well. I am hoping you'll see this. I finally have a schematic drawing from my architect. Plans have changed a little bit since we last talked and as such, I'd really appreciate it if you can help me figure out this new setup. The big change is that we're no longer including a full bath in the upper portion of the addition (we'll be adding a full bath on the upper level, but if doesn't factor into this setup).

Does this change much of anything? I figure I will be able to penetrate the roof with a 2" vent, instead of a 3", correct, or should I go up to 3" anyway?

Any thoughts? Concerns? Suggestions?

Mark-

Thanks for all your help. We're finally getting close on this project. We've got really drawings and everything. I'm hoping you can take a peak at this and give me your opinion on how best to plumb the half bath and the washer. As I mentioned, we can wet vent here. I've shown the only real option for the drain pipe to connect to the main stack. I know it isn't optimal, but will it work? How do I go about tying in the washer?

Any concerns? Thoughts?

Thanks!

massplumber2008 · Jul 6, 2009, 03:48 AM

Hi Stubits!

Here is a quick draw up of how I would pipe this. The toilet gets wet vented by the 2" lavatory waste/vent. The washing machine and the kitchen sink each get their own 2" waste line and 1.5" vents. The kitchen sink requires a 2" cleanout under the sink... so remember that when hooking up the sink. I also like to install a cleanout in the washing machine vent, but it is not required.

All vents connect at convenient spot upstairs and penetrate the roof 2".

Let me know if you have questions...

MARK

Stubits · Jul 6, 2009, 06:31 AM

This is great. Many, many thanks!

As always, I've got a couple of questions.

First, the kitchen sink is already in place and plumbed, so it's not a component of this project.

Second, I guess we've managed to reduce the number of cleanouts from earlier plans by using more 45's, right? On the topic of clean outs, how far should the cleanout be from where the two pipes intersect?

My goal is to run the 3" pipe through the joists(joists in the house are 2x12 and run side to side, not front to back). Does that seem even remotely possible? Will a 45 work inside a joist bay?

Finally, are all the connections made using sanitary tees, or wyes?

massplumber2008 · Jul 6, 2009, 06:53 AM

YUP! Cleanouts needed only at the changes of direction as noted in the drawing.

Cleanouts are just cemented into the end of the wye making the change of direction.

3" pipe going through how many joists...?? A 3" pipe is actually 3.5" and will require a hole about 4" in size... if a fitting goes through a joist the holes will need to be even bigger. If you plan on running this pipe down the middle of the house as presented I would check with the local building inspector on this as building codes require that no more than 1/3 of a joist can be taken away from a joist... and you are exactly borderline on that (or passed it if fitting ends in a joist).

Running down the center of the addition like this could also cause concerns... right? I'm pretty sure you can only be so close or so far from the foundation walls... so again, you will definitely need to check with your local building inspector on this. Let me know what he says here.. OK.?

All connections off the main run will be WYE connections as drawn above.

MARK

Stubits · Jul 6, 2009, 06:53 PM

Mark-

Thanks, this is all great. You're right on the joist issue. It just isn't worth it... I'd need to go through too many joists, too close to the middle of the home, so I'll be doing a soffit.

I've got some questions about how to pull this all together. Just to make sure we're on the same page, I've annotated your diagram, marking 3 question areas.

A - This connection is similar to many in this layout, but I wanted to make sure I understand how it works. Starting from the left (where it ties in to the main stack), you have 3" pvc pipe which gets connected to a wye. One one end of the wye is a cleanout. The other port connects to 3" PVC pipe which connects to a 45 which connects to other pipe. Is this right? Especially the use of the 45?

B- Can you walk me through plumbing the sink? Obviously there is a p-trap which connects to a horizontal pipe (1.5", right?) which connects(how??) to a 2" vertical stack. So, how specifically does the p-trap connect into the "stack"? Also, is it necessary for the "stack" to be located immediately behind the sink, or can it be located 6-12" to the left or right? And, how does this vertical stack tie into the drain under the floor?

C- On the toilet, I think I've got this one, but just to confirm. You've got a closet flange (which should sit on the finished floor, right?) which connects into a closet bend which connects directly to the 3" drain, right?

Oh, and when this all ties into the main stack, it gets connected using a sanitary tee, or no?

Anything I'm not thinking to ask? Any suggestions? Concerns?

Thank

massplumber2008 · Jul 7, 2009, 04:23 AM

A) YES

B) 2" Long sweep elbow out of the floor into a 2"x1.5" sanitary tee at about 18" to center off finish floor and 2" vent runs vertical and connects to other vents upstairs.
The stack should go 12" left or right to avoid issues with running into water pipes. The 1.5" pipe goes horizontal to pick up the sink and can be centered or go left or right of the sink center 6" either way (if vanity go left or right... if pedestal sink go dead center). Use a regular 90 to come out of the wall and install the PTRAP.

C) The closet flange sits on the finish floor... correct. Closet bend and then connect direct... correct.

D) At the main stack connect via a sanitary tee.. correct. A long sweep elbow should be installed at the base of the stack and a DANDY CLEANOUT should also be installed (read on).

Plan on capping everything with jim caps (2nd image) or wing-nut plug (3rd image) and fill the system with water to the roof vent to test all this. Here, you can install a DANDY CLEAN OUT (also called a test tee) at the base of the 3" stack and install a cherne seal plug (available at plumbing supply store... (4th image). These cherne plugs screw into the dandy cleanout (last image and in cross section in 4th image) and make it real easy to drain the system after filling the system (just release air from the plug and after all drains remove and recap the cleanout). Or, you could wait to connect the stack to the main and use a jim cap with boiler drain (1st image) in it to drain the system and then make the final connection into the main drain.

MARK

Stubits · Jul 7, 2009, 05:43 AM

This is all really great. Thanks so much!

Regarding the main stack and then the testing. The stack I am tying into is pre-existing, 3" cast iron. Should I still be planning on adding a long sweep elbow? If so, where?

Now, there is a clean out located below the point where I will be tying in. That's good, right? That said, it's an OLD clean out, 76 years old I am sure, and I have no idea when it was last opened. Can I perhaps use this for the purposes of testing? Also, how does this work given that there is a full bath connected to this stack (one floor above the powder room)? Can I still perform the test? Am I confused on something?

Thanks!

massplumber2008 · Jul 7, 2009, 12:35 PM

If preexisting stack then no need for the 90 degree fitting... correct.

If you install a dandy cleanout after you connect into the sanitary tee fitting of the stack... say a foot or two after you have connected (between sanitary tee and the wye/45 fitting) then you can install the cherneseal test ball into the dandy clean out, fill with air (PSI recommended on the cherneseal), test the drainage to highest point with water and then let the air out of the cherneseal to let water drain (after approved by the inspector) and then just install the cap back into the dandy cleanout and abandon it under the floor.

This will keep you from having any issues with the upstairs bathroom on this stack... ;)

MARK

Stubits · Jul 7, 2009, 01:05 PM

I guess I am still a little bit confused by all of this. Sorry!

I have a 3" cast iron vertical stack, it comes up out of the basement floor and runs all the way up the house, through the attic and out the roof. There is already a cleanout in the stack, perhaps 2-3' above the basement floor.

My house has three stories, including the basement. The plan is to run the pipes for the half bath and the washer, both of which are on the main floor of the home, through soffits along the basement ceiling. I did not envision having to open up the floor at all. Am I wrong? So, effectively the 3" horizontal run of the new drain will connect to the existing vertical stack, approximately 5-6' above the basement floor. Does this make sense at all?

So, I am wondering, can I use the cherneseal with the old cast iron clean out?

massplumber2008 · Jul 7, 2009, 04:53 PM

You said, "So, effectively the 3" horizontal run of the new drain will connect to the existing vertical stack, approximately 5-6' above the basement floor."

Install the dandy cleanout and the chernseal AFTER you connect into the stack... four or five feet off the old stack. Do not use the old cleanout. It will cause you to have to fill some of the old pipes.

Install the dandy cleanout and cherneseal about 5 feet off the old stack, in the ceiling where you will be building soffit around it. That make sense now?

Stubits · Jul 11, 2009, 07:50 PM

This is great. Makes perfect sense now. Sorry it took me so long to catch on.

I have two quick questions:

1) I'll be plumbing the supply lines with PEX. The supply for the toilet will come out of the floor (as opposed to the wall). How do I pull this off?

2) I will need to run the 2" vent through an exterior 2x6 wall. Will I be OK doing so? What size hole do I need to drill to fit a 2" pipe?

Thanks!

massplumber2008 · Jul 12, 2009, 05:26 AM

1) You can go with a pex shutoff which would only require you to stub up pex and cap it for now... or you could install a pex x copper adapter and stub up copper pipe and cap off until you are ready to install the shutoff at finish (see image... although shown in wall for the lavatory this applies to below the floor for the toilet just as well).

2) A 2" vent in exterior wall is normal practice. A 2" pipe will need a 2-9/16" hole-saw or self feeder bit.