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hheath541 · Jul 2, 2009, 06:35 PM

Since the thread this was previously posted in was getting FAR off-topic, I decided to move the discussion here. Anyone who wishes to move their posts on the topic should feel free to do so.

I want this to be an open discussion. Please, no name calling, accusations, or reporting people or the thread unless it is honestly called for. I would appreciate it if those who choose to participate would be so kind as to keep an open mind on topic, at least to the point of contributing more to the discussion than pure condemnation of one viewpoint or another.

Originally Posted by hheath541

i never said that christmas was a pagan ritual, just that a pagan ritual was displaced to make way for christmas. if you look into the history of christmas, which you obviously have, and the history of christianity's spread to northern europe, specifically england and ireland, you'll notice that christmas essentially came about at around the same time that the catholic church started converting the english isles. in order to hasten the conversion process and eliminate the pagan religions faster the church found ways to twist some of the pagan beliefs, and even holidays, to fit their message. it was a common practice in the early days of christianity. as i stated before, they turned the pagan celebration of the birth of the sun god into the christian celebration of the birth of the son of god. the fact that it now falls on December 25 has more to do with the restructuring of the calendar done by Pope Gregory XIII in 1582. the pagan holiday of yule actually falls on the winter equinox, which generally falls on December 21.
Origin of Christmas

the word easter is most likely from Ostara, also called Eostre or Eastre, (sorry, i got the spelling wrong before). no matter which way it's spelled (which depends on which land in which the goddess was worshiped and the particular dialect), she was always a goddess of spring and fertility, among other things. the rabbit and hen were seen as sacred to her, as symbols of fertility and rebirth. easter is still celebrated on the same day that the ancient, pagan ritual was observed on; the first Sunday after the first fullmoon following the spring equinox (which is why it moves so much from year to year). christians saw the holiday as a convenient day to celebrate what was first passover and then turned into a celebration of jesus' resurrection. the celebration of spring, which was seen as the rebirth of nature, seemed like the perfect day to celebrate the rebirth of christ. it was also a handy way to settle a debate that had been troubling the church for several years, when to celebrate a previously jewish holiday that was becoming increasingly more christian.
Pagan Roots of Easter Customs: Here Comes Ol? Cottontail?. | Suite101.com

What is the origin of Easter? - ChristianAnswers.Net

The Real Meaning of Easter

Easter, the History, Date, and Contemporary Meaning

sorry i have more links for easter than christmas, but the information is more patchy concerning easter because it the conversion from ostara to easter was less seamless than that of yule to christmas. some of the links under easter have information on christmas as well.

once again, i don't claim that easter or christmas as pagan holidays or that early christians were worshiping pagan gods. they merely saw a way to convert the northern europeans to christianity by changing the reason behind some of their holidays. it's easier to change the meaning behind a celebration than to outlaw it. the early christians saw nothing wrong with creatively twisting a few words, tweaking a phrase, or adapting native customs if it meant that converting was easier and 'held' better.

Wondergirl · Jul 2, 2009, 08:18 PM

I don't understand what there is to discuss. Either one agrees with your take on history or one doesn't.

hheath541 · Jul 2, 2009, 09:37 PM

It's a discussion the began in another thread and took that thread off-topic, so I started this one for anyone who wanted to continue it.

And, I don't see things in black and white. As far as I'm concerned there is more to agreeing or disagreeing with someone. Everyone with an opinion has that opinion for a reason. A discussion is, in my mind, a conversation about why you hold a particular opinion on the topic at hand.

Athos · Jul 2, 2009, 09:56 PM

I'm not sure either what your question is.

Yes, the Christian holydays often were a replacement of pagan feasts. As you say, this was done to make the transition from paganism to Christianity. This is commonly known.

What is your question?

hheath541 · Jul 2, 2009, 10:11 PM

It's not a question. It's a point for discussion.

Athos · Jul 2, 2009, 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by hheath541

it's not a question. it's a point for discussion.

Ok, but to discuss what?

homesell · Jul 3, 2009, 04:16 AM

Yup. No need to discuss this at all. No question is asked and most people really don't care if what christians consider Holy days were once considered pagan ritual days. Every day has only the meaning the individual gives it regardless of what meaning others in the past have given it. Every day for me is a holy day for it is a day the Lord has made, and a day he has given me life in this physical plane. Rejoice in all things and be ever grateful for God's grace, mercy, and Love.