[NeedKarma]

And I've agreed that *your* government should indeed not be the provider of healthcare. That leaves you guys in a precarious position.

[ETWolverine]

Oh really?

Medical Bills Prompt More Than 60% of U.S. Bankruptcies - Health News - Health.com


NCHC | Facts About Healthcare - Health Insurance Costs

NK, you have again missed the point.

Let's assume that every single one of those people did indeed go bankrupt because of medical expenses.

Every one of those people (or the vast majority of them) were supposed to be elligible for Medicare or Medicaid. If they were going bankrupt due to their medical bills, the GOVERNMENT was supposed to have stepped in to help them. That is what Medicare and Medicaid are there for. That is their purpose.

So if Medicare and Medicaid failed for all those people, and I don't doubt that it did, what makes you think that a bigger government system that encompasses 300 million people is going to do a better job of covering people than the smaller system with fewer people to cover does now? What makes you think that if we make the government system that failed these people even bigger and force more people into the system it will make things better and not worse.

Repeating the failures of the current system on a larger scale is NOT going to make fewer failures. It's going to make more of them.

The failures of the government-run Medicare and Medicaid systems that were supposed to help those most in need are what caused these people to go bankrupt in the first place. Why would anyone trust the systems responsible for such failures with even more responsibilities?

Elliot

[ETWolverine]

And I've agreed that *your* government should indeed not be the provider of healthcare. That leaves you guys in a precarious position.

Not at all.

Again, the issue is with 3% of the people of the United States who are uninsured through no fault of their own for an extended period (more than 4 months) and are here legally.

Do you really think we can't find a way to take care of 3% of our population without destroying the best healthcare system in the world to do it?

Yes, we need to take care of these people. I have never denied that. What I have said is that we don't need to destroy the entire medical system in the USA to do it. What I have also said is that it is not the major disaster that the Obama administration would have you think it was. To listen to them, EVERYONE is about to go bankrupt because of the greedy insurance companies, doctors, hospitals and pharma companies. That is NOT the case.

Leaving aside charitable foundations that help people who need medical help (and there are plenty of them), there are plenty of free clinics. Hospitals already take care of these people if they are in need, with no charge. Pharmaceutical companies give away free or below-market-price drugs to those in need. These programs can be expanded on without government interference and without dismantling the healthcare system. We CAN cover these people and we don't need to create nationalized healthcare to do it.

Elliot

[NeedKarma]

From your postings it looks like you guys have a kickass system. Congrats.

[cozyk]

From your postings it looks like you guys have a kickass system. Congrats.

:D:D:DThat is funny. I love it.

[speechlesstx]

it is not the major disaster that the Obama administration would have you think it was. To listen to them, EVERYONE is about to go bankrupt because of the greedy insurance companies, doctors, hospitals and pharma companies. That is NOT the case.

Exactly, and it is exactly as they're doing with climate change - deliberately avoiding an honest debate and playing on fears and emotions in order to enact an agenda. These people don't give a horse's a$$ about your health care, they want the power, they want to soothe their self-serving consciences and stroke their already over-inflated egos.

[speechlesstx]

From your postings it looks like you guys have a kickass system. Congrats.

As long as you have Canadians coming here for health care and your private practices are booming under your nationalized plan, I'd be a hell of a lot less brave about mocking us if I were you.

[NeedKarma]

To listen to them, EVERYONE is about to go bankrupt because of the greedy insurance companies, doctors, hospitals and pharma companies. That is NOT the case.

Did I say "everyone"? No, you did. And the stats don't come from Obama, people are indeed going bankrupt:

A recent study by Harvard University researchers found that the average out-of-pocket medical debt for those who filed for bankruptcy was $12,000. The study noted that 68 percent of those who filed for bankruptcy had health insurance. In addition, the study found that 50 percent of all bankruptcy filings were partly the result of medical expenses.9 Every 30 seconds in the United States someone files for bankruptcy in the aftermath of a serious health problem.
A new survey shows that more than 25 percent said that housing problems resulted from medical debt, including the inability to make rent or mortgage payments and the development of bad credit ratings.10
About 1.5 million families lose their homes to foreclosure every year due to unaffordable medical costs. 11

Overall, three-quarters of the people with a medically related bankruptcy had health insurance, they say.
“That was actually the predominant problem in patients in our study—78% of them had health insurance, but many of them were bankrupted anyway because there were gaps in their coverage like co-payments and deductibles and uncovered services,” says Dr. Woolhandler. “Other people had private insurance but got so sick that they lost their job and lost their insurance.”

[NeedKarma]

As long as you have Canadians coming here for health care and your private practices are booming under your nationalized plan, I'd be a hell of a lot less brave about mocking us if I were you.

I was congratulating you on having one of the best health care systems in the world.

[speechlesstx]

I was congratulating you on having one of the best health care systems in the world.

Right, there was no sarcasm there at all, ask cozyk.

[ETWolverine]

From your postings it looks like you guys have a kickass system. Congrats.

EXACTLY!! We do have a kickass system, and there is no reason to change what works. That's my point. In fact, that is exactly the point of every conservative on this thread.

Glad you finally got the point.

Elliot

[tickle]

:D:D:DThat is funny. I love it.

Yes, me too ROFL

Tick(led) pink

[tickle]

As long as you have Canadians coming here for health care and your private practices are booming under your nationalized plan, I'd be a hell of a lot less brave about mocking us if I were you.

I almost wish this thread was closed because everyone here goes around in circles. Anyway, the only Canadians that go down your side are the ones who can afford to do so for medical procedures and don't want to wait because they will miss their trip to Europe or whatever. . OHIP is dead against covering medical expenses in the US, unless of course it is a case similar to the preemie that had to go down for medical assistance. Our seniors who used to spend 6 months out of the year in Florida, had lovely homes, can't afford to be there now because if they have major health issues, nothing is covered, i.e. if they have strokes, heart attacks insurance is just too expensive to come by for even a minimal stay in a US hospital. So they stay home.

Maybe it is so easy to get beds in the US because no one can afford to be in them and choose to suffer needlessly in their homes and die in bed never having had proper medical care. Gangrene from diabetes must be running rampant in the US. And gosh, how do they afford their meds, at the moment, being over 65 mine are $6.11 through OHIPand will continue to be until I pass away at a ripe old age of 95 to l00 being entirely well taken care of by my doctors and hospital and Personal Support Workers coming into my own to attend me, also paid by OHIP. Alas, my job is so hard being a certified Personal Support Worker and registered Nursing Assistant, doing just this type of work.

Sorry, am I rubbing the wound raw here:cool:

[Skell]

The truth is revealing aint it ? What I posted isn't an isolated incident but a common occurance. Yeah we pay a price I guess .But there is no scarcity of needed service here. Here the exception is people who's care is inadequate .That can be addressed.

Yet Canadians have a longer life expectancy than the Americans...

[cozyk]

EXACTLY!!! We do have a kickass system, and there is no reason to change what works. That's my point. In fact, that is exactly the point of every conservative on this thread.

Glad you finally got the point.

Elliot

We have a kickass system?? :D:D:D: No need to change what works?? :D:D:D: ROFLMAF

[passmeby]

If military healthcare is anything like what a government-run system would be, then allow me to comment... On one hand, the system is pretty efficient-call in the AM for a same-day appointment, no waiting months for an appointment-see the Dr and if a referral is needed for a service, you walk down the hall of the hospital and go get your x-ray or whatever you need-your prescription is transferred directly from a computer in the physicians room to the pharmacy across the hall, you pick it up and leave the hospital without paying a dime. If they don't offer the service you need, you are referred somewhere that does without having to worry about the cost.

The bad stuff... you are a number. You are not treated like a human being, rather more like a burden, "how can we get you out of here as cheaply as possible?"... there is a lot of ignoring of symptoms, as in "maybe if we send you home with Motrin and tell you to drink water, it'll go away and we won't have to do any tests or give you any GOOD medicine"... no offense, but the Dr's are just not very good. They don't have to be! They're going to get paid the same whether they're an awesome Dr or whether they misdiagnose people left and right... there's no incentive to excel, no incentive to even just be compassionate and human.

I have had private insurance for a while now, and while I can see my GREAT Dr, I can't get some of the tests he wants me to do (I need an MRI... not life-threatining, just necessary). I can't afford the co-pay. But I can't qualify for any help either. There's no "free clinic" for MRI's...

I don't think I really said anything here, sorry... just relating my personal experiences. I personally think that there needs to be some kind of change absolutely, but I am not in favor of government-run healthcare. There needs to be some kind of middle-ground.

[inthebox]

Private practice will boom in United States as well if we institute National Health Insurance. What is amazing, though, is that Americans look at Canada or England to justify why Universal Health Care doesn't work. What about Germany, Denmark, Sweden, and other Western Nations that have national health care? I just wrote Senator Bill Nelson about National Health Insurance. Americans don't need health insurance. They need health care. excellent point

A health insurance based system will breed the same capitalist problems as did our financial system. Fraud, greed, lawsuits, overspending on technolgoy, etc. A system like the military and VA eliminates almost all of the excess costs. The government controls labor costs, material costs, licensure of providers, claims, lawsuits, etc. I spent 20years as a recipient of military health care and 12 years working in the system, and yes, there are complaints, but look at the $1.5 Billion in lawsuits in the civilian sector.
ERISA laws greatly reduce the ability to sue the government for malpractice Any system that motivates greed will not only increase costs, but lower quality!

When the majority of congress people, the justice department, and the president himself get their healthcare strictly through the VA or medicaid - then they can vote on a government run healthcare system. Until then it is just hot air.

Illinois Medical Malpractice Blog: Illinois Senators demand answers from Marion VA Hospital

In July 2006, Jose Veizaga-Mendez had to surrender his license to practice medicine in the state of Massachusetts. A state regulatory board had investigated Veizaga-Mendez and found that he had provided unacceptable care to seven patients. Then, Veizaga-Mendez made his way to Illinois and was hired as a surgeon by a VA hospital in Southern Illinois. At that point, the VA hospital experienced a sudden increase in post-surgical deaths. Although Veizaga-Mendez has since resigned, Senators Obama and Durbin have written a letter

When the government controls "labor costs" then it will be hard to have qualified doctors work under that system or expect future debt laden medical students and residents work under that system. The above is a foreshadowing of government healthcare. Note that this occurred under Obama's watch.






G&P

[ETWolverine]

We have a kickass system??? :D:D:D: No need to change what works???:D:D:D: ROFLMAF

We do have a kickass system, and the proof is in our patient outcomes. Our patients live longer. Cancer patients have lower levels of recurrence. We have fewer cases of patients suffering from infections caused by the hospitals. Overall, we have better outcomes than any other system in the world on a statistical basis.

And there is no need to change what works in order to fix what doesn't. I grant you that there are about 10-15 million people who need better coverage. But that doesn't mean we need to screw around with what works for the other 285 million of us. Fix what's broken, don't change what isn't.

What part of that is funny to you?

I think you've lost it.

[ETWolverine]

If military healthcare is anything like what a government-run system would be, then allow me to comment......On one hand, the system is pretty efficient-call in the AM for a same-day appointment, no waiting months for an appointment-see the Dr and if a referral is needed for a service, you walk down the hall of the hospital and go get your x-ray or whatever you need-your prescription is transfered directly from a computer in the physicians room to the pharmacy across the hall, you pick it up and leave the hospital without paying a dime. If they don't offer the service you need, you are referred somewhere that does without having to worry about the cost.

The bad stuff.....you are a number. You are not treated like a human being, rather more like a burden, "how can we get you out of here as cheaply as possible?".....there is a lot of ignoring of symptoms, as in "maybe if we send you home with Motrin and tell you to drink water, it'll go away and we won't have to do any tests or give you any GOOD medicine".......no offense, but the Dr's are just not very good. They don't have to be!! They're gonna get paid the same whether they're an awesome Dr or whether they misdiagnose people left and right....there's no incentive to excell, no incentive to even just be compassionate and human.

I have had private insurance for a while now, and while I can see my GREAT Dr, I can't get some of the tests he wants me to do (I need an MRI....not life-threatining, just necessary). I can't afford the co-pay. But I can't qualify for any help either. There's no "free clinic" for MRI's......

I don't think I really said anything here, sorry....just relating my personal experiences. I personally think that there needs to be some kind of change absolutely, but I am not in favor of government-run healthcare. There needs to be some kind of middle-ground.

First of all, you said quite a bit here. You, a person who has experience with both private and government-run health care have given us your personal experience and explained it perfectly. Thank you for your post.

That said, you mentioned the need for an MRI. Does that mean that the VA isn't covering the cost of the MRI? Also, are you inelligible for Medicare or Medicaid? Medicare should cover you based on a means test, and Medicaid if you are either over a certain age or are disabled. Are you inelligible for these?

If you are inelligible for an MRI through Medicare, Medicaid and the VA system, what does this say about government-run medical coverage specifically designed to close the gaps left by your private insurance?

Yours is a case that specifically proves my point.

Again, I thank you for your post.

Elliot

[cozyk]

We do have a kickass system, and the proof is in our patient outcomes. Our patients live longer. Cancer patients have lower levels of recurrence. We have fewer cases of patients suffering from infections caused by the hospitals. Overall, we have better outcomes than any other system in the world on a statistical basis.

And there is no need to change what works in order to fix what doesn't. I grant you that there are about 10-15 million people who need better coverage. But that doesn't mean we need to screw around with what works for the other 285 million of us. Fix what's broken, don't change what isn't.

What part of that is funny to you?

I think you've lost it.

Sorry, can't help it. Still laughing.:D:D:D