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homesell · Jun 5, 2009, 09:37 AM

"In a nutshell, we have moved from a state of poverty at its lowest to a state of providence. Not great wealth(but we will get there by faith) but providence. We can see how far we have come. Everytime we remind each other of how far we have come and its only by Gods Grace." - Papili

I hope you realize as a believer that whatever you have or DON'T have as a believer, you are in a state of providence. To state that you will get to great wealth by faith depends on what God's plan is for your life. In other parts of the world, Christians live in great poverty, and persecution and are beaten, raped, killed, etc. and it's not because they haven't heard the "name it and Claim it" preachers or the "prosperity" preachers. The apostles were dirt poor, Jesus had got Peter to get a coin out of a fishes mouth to pay the roman head tax.
It may be God's will for you to be wealthy but I wouldn't assume it is just because you live in America. If on the other hand, you have the joy of giving much more than is asked or required and want to give more, that's different.

N0help4u · Jun 5, 2009, 12:46 PM

Again I agree with Homesell. The prosperity teachers teach 10% name it and claim it.
That is not the faith we are to use when giving but it is what many Christians have reduced giving to.
I have even heard Christians say things like ''I sent Benny Hinn $100. So I am believing in a seven fold return. Then I can buy that big screen TV I want''.

arcura · Jun 5, 2009, 09:26 PM

papili,
Thank you for sharing your story.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

papili · Jun 6, 2009, 04:39 AM

Just to clarify something, my story and belief in getting more is not based on what my church has taught me or what sone 'preacher' tells me. I simply opened my Bible, and there it was. Loud and clear.

Fr_Chuck · Jun 6, 2009, 04:58 AM

The trouble with the name it and claim it, that it is not bibical, the disiples did not retire to a private island with servants for all of the great work they did for the Lord.

The blessings and the things we receive is not always material, that is where they make their error.

arcura · Jun 6, 2009, 09:51 PM

Fr. Chuck,
Point will made and said.
Fred

binx44 · Jun 10, 2009, 05:21 AM

One thing here.. are you people saying that your required to pay "god" or your "church" a set percentage of your personal income.. if so then in my opinion your religion has not improved.. in my religion we are not required to tithe or whatever you call it but there are offerings made when you can if you can, if not the gods do not disown you, because you offer what you can not in material goods but in thoughts and actions etc.. ( it might be tithing or what have you) now I am not bashing your religion but how is it right that you must pay the chruch... your god doesn't require you to pay him in money but in love, respect and the actions you do. Or so you would think

cozyk · Jun 10, 2009, 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by binx44

one thing here.. are you people saying that your required to pay "god" or your "church" a set percentage of your personal income....? if so then in my opinion your religion has not improved.. in my religion we are not required to tithe or whatever you call it but there are offerings made when you can if you can, if not the gods do not disown you, because you offer what you can not in material goods but in thoughts and actions etc.. ( it might be tithing or what have you) now i am not bashing your religion but how is it right that you must pay the church... your god doesn't require you to pay him in money but in love, respect and the actions you do. or so you would think

Some good points made here. My issue is this. I can "tithe" or "pay God" in ways other than giving money to a church. Anytime you make contributions to charities, either money or time you are giving back to God. When you give to United Way, you are giving to God.
When you contribute to a homeless shelter you are giving to God. God is not just in a church. And personally, I don't like supporting the fancy trimmings in the church. The cathedral like buildings in my opinion are an insult to God. Look at the Vatican or The Crystal Cathedral in Ca. They are a bad joke.

N0help4u · Jun 10, 2009, 07:21 AM

Originally Posted by cozyk

And personally, I don't like supporting the fancy trimmings in the church. The cathedral like buildings in my opinion are an insult to God. Look at the Vatican or The Crystal Cathedral in Ca. They are a bad joke.

About the self righteous church

Would You Crucify Him by John Michael Talbot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo-2P...om=PL&index=14

Chorus:
Would you crucify Him
Would you crucify Him.. my religious friend?
Would you crucify Him.. talking 'bout the sweet Lord Jesus
If He'd walk right here among you once again?

She's askin', How many times have you looked down to the harlot
Lookin' through her tears, pretendin' you don't know?
For once you were just like her, how can you be now so self righteous
When in the name of the Lord you throw the first stone

So now I turn to you through your years of your robes and stained-glass windows
Do you vainly echo your prayers "to please the Lord?"
Profess the Marriage with your tongue, while your mind dreams like the harlot
But if the Judge looks to your thoughts can't you guess your reward?

Yet how many times have you quoted from your Bible
To justify your eye for your eye and your tooth for your tooth?
You say that He didn't mean what He was plainly sayin'
But like the Pharisee, my friend, you're an educated fool!

cozyk · Jun 10, 2009, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

About the self righteous church

Would You Crucify Him by John Michael Talbot
YouTube - John Michael Talbot - Would You Crucify Him?

Chorus:
Would you crucify Him
Would you crucify Him..., my religious friend?
Would you crucify Him..., talking 'bout the sweet Lord Jesus
If He'd walk right here among you once again?

She's askin', How many times have you looked down to the harlot
Lookin' through her tears, pretendin' you don't know?
For once you were just like her, how can you be now so self righteous
When in the name of the Lord you throw the first stone

So now I turn to you through your years of your robes and stained-glass windows
Do you vainly echo your prayers "to please the Lord?"
Profess the Marriage with your tongue, while your mind dreams like the harlot
But if the Judge looks to your thoughts can't you guess your reward?

Yet how many times have you quoted from your Bible
To justify your eye for your eye and your tooth for your tooth?
You say that He didn't mean what He was plainly sayin'
But like the Pharisee, my friend, you're an educated fool!

I'm not sure what your point is?

N0help4u · Jun 10, 2009, 07:39 AM

It's a song about how people think that going to churches with fancy trimming and giving their money to them will save them when actually they are basically making God cry because even though they go to church and give their hearts are far from God with themselves righteous attitudes.

Actually it has been 30 yrs since I heard the song and I grabbed the wrong one. This one is about self righteous Christians but the other was more about how they hide behind the fancy church walls with themselves righteousness.

arcura · Jun 10, 2009, 09:42 PM

binx44
Considering all that God gas given me I owe Him much more than I could ever repay no matter how rich I might be.
Tithing money or service to the work of God on this planet should be a gift of love and thanksgiving for anyone who believes in and loves God.
That is the way I see it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

binx44 · Jun 11, 2009, 11:33 AM

but is money really an item that he would like to receive? I know since the 7 sins changed wealth (or money which ever it is) is a sin now... does that make any difference. I could understand a service to the work of god on this planet but even back then money wasn't used so why use it now?

cozyk · Jun 11, 2009, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by binx44

but is money really an item that he would like to recieve? i know since the 7 sins changed wealth (or money which ever it is) is a sin now... does that make any difference.? i could understand a service to the work of god on this planet but even back then money wasnt used so why use it now?

It's used for practical reasons like to pay the mortgage on the church buildings, the electricity, gas, insurance, the minister, associate minister, youth minister, choir director, up keep, hymnals, choir robes, literature, foreign missions, parsonage, possible health ins. For church employees, pianos, organs, office equipment, the church bus if applicable, and more. It's a business. It has expenses. Only thing is, it does not pay taxes. What's wrong with this picture?

arcura · Jun 11, 2009, 09:29 PM

CozyK,
Good examples.
Fred

papili · Jun 12, 2009, 03:10 AM

I could understand a service to the work of god on this planet but even back then money wasn't used so why use it now?[/QUOTE]

This is because back then, their mode of exchange was abit different than now. Barter trade was practiced more than now. Their crops and cattle were used as a meams of payment. Because of technology advancement, money and other forms have to be used nowadays.

arcura · Jun 12, 2009, 09:02 PM

papili,
Perhaps you did not notice that money was used way back in Solomon's temple and Jesus upset the tables of the money changers in the second temple.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

papili · Jun 13, 2009, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by arcura

papili,
Perhaps you did not notice that money was used way back in Solomon's temple and Jesus upset the tables of the money changers in the second temple.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

That I know, I even know judas betrayed Jesus for money. I was misquoting one who had said money was not used back then and why now. Back then, both money and barter trade were very much used. And only now money has surpassed the other forms of exchange.

arcura · Jun 15, 2009, 09:33 PM

adam7gur
You have given me something more to think about regarding the Holy Spirit.
Thanks.
Fred

paraclete · Jul 1, 2009, 05:55 PM

450 donn
Sorry for intervening here but I agree with homesell a businessman doesn't tithe of his gross income but on his profit, his increase, and this is so with the tithe. The israelites only tithed on the increase, the increase in flocks and the increase in crops once the seed was taken and the servant didn't tithe.
But in any case tithing is part of the Old Testament Law and is not required of the Christian we are required to give much more since everything we own belongs to God and so we make offerings and we should not use a formula to calculate how much we should give, this is mean spirited