[Tj3]

That's correct, there is but one Church, the church you know as Roman Catholic Church, i.e. the Church of Jesus Christ. Christ didn't make subdivisions (denominations) of His Church.

Christ did not make subdivisions of His Church - right but what you seem to miss is that Christ's church is NOT a denomination, not Roman catholic, not Lutheran, not Baptist, though it is possible for members of Christ's body to be in any of the above.

Claiming that your denomination alone is right is a direct contradiction of God's word.

[flayvur]

Joe and arcura, the same thing adam7gur has said that's what I was basically saying, but maybe didn't explain it clear enough. What good does tradition do when your not loving your fellow man or woman. The story of the clergyman who saw his neighbor laying on the ground and kept walking by because I guess he was going to the synagogue never stopped to help. Then a man passing by stopped, took him to a place like a hotel paid for him to stay there and went back to check on him showed more god in him than the clergy man walking by. It's good to know the tradition's and keep them but without treating people right I don't think it means a hill of bean's. LOVE AND PEACE TO ALL ON THIS SITE.l

[arcura]

Joe and Adam,
I agree with you both.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JoeT777]

Yeah it’s called sin. Just because there is unpleasant gritty sand on the beach doesn’t mean you deny the existence of a place where the land meets the ocean.

I did not say that tradition is out of the question. All I said is that tradition that is not in agreement with the Word should not be taken as God's will! Jesus said that he who is not against us is with us.
It takes two witnesses to testify the word so that the word becomes certain. Tradition should be backed up somehow by the Word, I think it is clear that every word that is against the Word somehow, is not God's!
Again I am not saying that we should forget everything else and just focus and study the Bible, but I am saying examine every word, every tradition if it is God's or not!

Adam:

You’ve brought forward some good points.

The ‘Word’, Holy Scripture, has a special relation with Tradition. Scripture and Tradition are bound together forming a synergistic accord of one fountainhead of Divine Truth. A truth that rejoices in God’s grace and teaches the heart wisdom (Cf. Matt 28:20 & cf. Col 3:16). Sacred Scripture is God’s revelation to man inspired through the lives of the authors. Tradition authoritatively telegraphs the good news with the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit, preserving, expounding and teaching. They cannot be separated. Scripture without Tradition is merely another book whose author is but another human with a human’s propensity for failure. Tradition without Scripture is Truth without discipline, a subjective truth, an ever changing truth relative to the perspective of the listener; an oxymoron considering truth is immutable. To focus only on scripture is to ignore life, to focus on the love for other is blessed, but to LIVE God’s truth as taught by the Magisterium of the Church is holy, becoming an adopted son of God.

JoeT

[Tj3]

Adam:

You’ve brought forward some good points.

The ‘Word’, Holy Scripture, has a special relation with Tradition. Scripture and Tradition are bound together forming a synergistic accord of one fountainhead of Divine Truth. A truth that rejoices in God’s grace and teaches the heart wisdom (Cf. Matt 28:20 & cf. Col 3:16). Sacred Scripture is God’s revelation to man inspired through the lives of the authors.

All God inspired tradition has been written down.

[arcura]

Tj3,
Yes you are right it has been written down in several different places.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[adam7gur]

All God inspired tradition has been written down.

There are things that God showed me, even told me and many of those things I have written down.What I wrote is not Scripture but me passing these things to others ,that would make those things a tradition!
I am sure that this is the kind of tradition that is mentioned in Scripture to keep and follow along with Scripture!

[Tj3]

There are things that God showed me, even told me and many of those things I have written down.What I wrote is not Scripture but me passing these things to others ,that would make those things a tradition!
I am sure that this is the kind of tradition that is mentioned in Scripture to keep and follow along with Scripture!

As it was with Paul and the Bereans, any revelations are to be tested by seeing if they are in concert with scripture - scripture is the standard.

What you write down is not scripture, and anything that you do not write down is not equal to or an addition to scripture either.

[sndbay]

Christ didn't make subdivisions (denominations) of His Church.
JoeT

We have to recognize that Christ warned us of doctrine of man.. I think you will agree.

And also we have to recognize the power of God that sustains us.. I think you will agree.

Both are present.. and exist.. Agree?

Christ the Lord said.. Luke 12:49 I am come to send fire on the earth and what will I, if it be already kindled?

The Holy Spirit warms a believers heart and Truth is a consuming fire. (Hebrew 12:29 - Deu 4:24 - Deu 9:3 - John 15:26)

Luke 12:51-52 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. KJV

Those of satan are not HIS, and not all know the truth.

Some are fools and slow to understand that Christ suffered all to HIS glory. (Luke 24:25-26) All that the prophets spoke, tells us what we too will suffer, and how Christ suffered to baptism as it was the first to be accomplished. (Act 3:18)

Why? Because it is written in Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

How are we to unity with the Father, with the Word, and with the Holy Spirit? In Baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire.. )Matthew 3:11-Luke 3:16)

How are be unitied and not divided... One LORD One FAITH One BAPTISM; One GOD and FATHER of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

There is only unity in following Christ, who is the vine. (John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.)

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise


Who accomplished baptism to be suffered? CHRIST

Who has unity in baptism with the WORD, the Father of TRUTH, and the SPIRIT?

1 JOHN 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

6-7-8 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

9If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son

~follow the begotten Son of God

[arcura]

adam7gur,
God did not stop inspiring people after holy scripture was written.
And many have written what which was passed down to them from the apostles and from God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[adam7gur]

Fred
I aggree!

[Tj3]

adam7gur,
God did not stop inspiring people after holy scripture was written.
And many have written what which was passed down to them from the apostles and from God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

True and we agree, God provided revelation to some people as guidance for their lives, or perhaps even for their church, but nothing to add to general revelation equal to scripture.

[arcura]

Tj3,
Thanks for your opinion on that.
I disagree to a limited extent.
Fred

[adam7gur]

True and we agree, God provided revelation to some people as guidance for their lives, or perhaps even for their church, but nothing to add to general revelation equal to scripture.

Still I believe that everything that comes out of God's mouth is Scripture in a way 'cause I cannot say that this word of God is special and the other one is not so special.
Everything God says is special, either it is written down or it is sound tradition!

[homesell]

Jesus always rallyed against oral tradition.
"You have heard it said, but I say... "
Is said many times and written as scripture. Should we take the oral tradition over what Jesus says?
Many times Jesus gave a definite answer saying, "It is written..." always quoting from the Old testament(the only scripture or Bible they had at the time.
I believe in a God that if He wants something to be taken as scripture(his own Word) that he is capable and able to do so and has done this.
Anyone can learn all they need to know from the Bible. Once they are born again, the spirit speaks to them as they read scripture and pray to guide them.
Ask yourself, If I were alone on a desert Island and a Bible came floating in on a raft and this was my only experience with religion or God, would my beliefs be different than they are now? If the answer is Yes, take the Bereans attitude and check absolutely everything against what scripture says. See if some pharisaical character has added a burden to you that is not necessary for a loving relationship with our Lord and saviour.

[JoeT777]

We have to recognize that Christ warned us of doctrine of man.. I think you will agree.

And also we have to recognize the power of God that sustains us.. I think you will agree.

Both are present.. and exist.. Agree?

No, not in the context presented here, I don’t agree. First Christ doesn’t warn us against ‘doctrine’ He warns us against traditions of men. The Church's doctrine are not the traditions of men, rather the Tradition of Christ.

Christ the Lord said.. Luke 12:49 I am come to send fire on the earth and what will I, if it be already kindled?
The Holy Spirit warms a believers heart and Truth is a consuming fire. (Hebrew 12:29 - Deu 4:24 - Deu 9:3 - John 15:26)

Luke 12:51-52 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. KJV

After baptism we baptized stand guard, pray, fast, for ourselves and the souls of the departed. Baptism frees of sin, both actual and original and as such we are like the afflicted in want penitential discipline imposed by the authority of the Holy Church (Cf. Luke 12:50). If the after death we aren’t risen, then why bother. (Cf. St. Francis de Sales, The Catholic Controversy, Church Doctrines, chapter 5) But, Christ wanted speaks passionately to motivate with a burning desire to enter the Kingdom of God through baptism; “I am come to cast fire on the earth.” (Luke 12”49). Figurative speech similar to Sirach 48:1, “Then the prophet Elijah arose like a fire, and his word burned like a torch.”

St. Augustine held that our faith is immature, as a child is immature, and that child matures while in the presence of adults, as a child like faith matures in the presence of men with a mature holiness. (Cf. St. Augustine: Doctrine, 4046) Even among family we have varying maturity of faith which causes conflict; especially with those with infinitely small faith. “The Baptism of Jesus is on his part acceptance and inauguration of his mission as God's suffering Servant. He allows himself to be numbered among sinners; he is already "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world” (CCC 538). Those members of the body of Christ are numbered among those belonging to Satan, those who “are not HIS, and not all know the truth.” Figuratively, we should be like the sacrifice consumed by the passion for the graces granted in baptism; “Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt offering, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces; and they said, "The LORD, he is God; the LORD, he is God." (1Kings 18:38-39)

The Catechism teaches that as water signifies birth and the gifts of the Holy Spirit so too does fire symbolizes the effect on the soul of the transforming graces. “The prayer of the prophet Elijah, who "arose like fire" and whose "word burned like a torch," brought down fire from heaven on the sacrifice on Mount Carmel. This event was a "figure" of the fire of the Holy Spirit, who transforms what he touches. John the Baptist, who goes "before (the Lord) in the spirit and power of Elijah," proclaims Christ as the one who "will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire." Jesus will say of the Spirit: "I came to cast fire upon the earth; and would that it were already kindled!" In the form of tongues "as of fire," the Holy Spirit rests on the disciples on the morning of Pentecost and fills them with himself The spiritual tradition has retained this symbolism of fire as one of the most expressive images of the Holy Spirit's actions. "Do not quench the Spirit."(CCC 696)

This theme is express in most all of St. Augustine’s writings, the following is an example:

“Now John, amongst the other things which he spake to those who came to be baptized by him, said, “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance; but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear; He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire.” The Lord also said, “Jn truly baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence,” even at Pentecost. Now as to John’s expression, “with fire,” though tribulation also might be understood, which believers were to suffer for the name of Christ; yet may we reasonably think that the same Holy Spirit is signified also under the name of “fire.” Wherefore when He came it is said, “And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.” Hence also the Lord Himself said, “I am come to send fire on the earth.” Hence also the Apostle saith, “Fervent in the spirit;” for from Him comes the fervour of love. “For it is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.” And the contrary to this fervour is what the Lord said, “The love of many shall wax cold.” Now perfect love is the perfect gift of the Holy Spirit. But the first “gift” is that which is concerned with the remission of sins; by which blessing “we are delivered from the power of darkness;” St. Augustine on NT Sermon XX. [LXX. Ben.]

So, you see, we should pray for those consuming fires. You weren’t suggesting otherwise, were you?

Some are fools and slow to understand that Christ suffered all to HIS glory. (Luke 24:25-26) All that the prophets spoke, tells us what we too will suffer, and how Christ suffered to baptism as it was the first to be accomplished. (Act 3:18)

Some are even more foolish when shown the mystery of the Kingdom of God and yet “seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand… (Mark 4:12). A bigger fool will see the plain truth and not recognize it.

Who has unity in baptism with the WORD, the Father of TRUTH, and the SPIRIT?

Just for clarity; if you define the Word as the ‘Holy Scripture’, then the above statement would make you in unity with a book. The incarnation, incarnatio (in: caro, flesh), conforming to the John’s descriptuion of Christ’s conception. John (1:14), (kai ho Logos sarx egeneto), "And the Word was made flesh". Incarnation is the act of a God residing in a human. The ‘word’ of God refers to God’s will and all creation is the product of God’s will. Thus, the incarnate word is the residing of the will of God in a human, i.e. Christ, both God and man, one Divine Person with two natures.

JoeT

[N0help4u]

Church doctrine and traditions of man are not necessarily two separate issues.

[sndbay]

No, not in the context presented here, I don't agree. First Christ doesn't warn us against 'doctrine' He warns us against traditions of men. The Church's doctrine are not the traditions of men, rather the Tradition of Christ.

I would discern this as untrue because I see many churches that have changed what Christ suffered to accomplish.

Lists of changes can be shown such as baptizing innocent new born babies at birth, baptism without full coverage in of water,( a paganism feast) rather then passover feast where the lamb of Christ our passover, and a huge doubt taught to say we are still with sin, and not knowing we were set free from sin by the blood of Christ.

Christ brought division between those that do not believe in HIS WORD, and those who do have faith in Christ.

Those that overcome are connected in unity with the Fire of Spiritual Truth in our Father, and the Holy Spirit when baptized. And have been set free from the curse of sin, having no more sin by the blood of Christ.

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will


Eph 14:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive

I ask you, who teaches that we can be without sin, and unto a fullness of Christ /perfect man?

After baptism we baptized stand guard, pray, fast, for ourselves and the souls of the departed. Baptism frees of sin, both actual and original and as such we are like the afflicted in want penitential discipline imposed by the authority of the Holy Church .

Baptism is not to be in reference in putting away filth of flesh! But it is the answer to good conscience toward God. (FAITH)
refer:[B]1 Peter 3:21[/B] The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

And to say baptism afflicted in want for penitential discipline imposed by the authority of the church ... I discern the authority to be aid in God's hand of power and glory, and our Father in Heaven as the Fire. We can not glory in man, but give all glory to the Father.

If the after death we aren't risen, then why bother. (Cf. St. Francis de Sales, The Catholic Controversy, Church Doctrines, chapter 5) But, Christ wanted speaks passionately to motivate with a burning desire to enter the Kingdom of God through baptism; “I am come to cast fire on the earth.” (Luke 12”49). Figurative speech similar to Sirach 48:1, “Then the prophet Elijah arose like a fire, and his word burned like a torch.”

(Luke 12:49) as you have reference is that our Father has kindled HIS FIRE. For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God. His Fire goes before us and destroys evil to protect, and so we will serve HIM in godly fear. Even so we have Baptism as verse 12:50 will go on to say... refer:Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

What you offer as teaching on the after death would better be discerned by what means death and buried in Christ through baptism, able to raise with Christ and in Christ. OR why bother? It has nothing to do with the after death of the flesh departed by the spirit, and returning to the Father that sent it.
BUT it does means death of this world which is sin, and buried in following Christ without sin, able to raise as Christ prayed to the Father, so we are not of this world but one with Him.
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. (1 Cr 2:5)

John 17:15-17 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth

“Now John, amongst the other things which he spake to those who came to be baptized by him, said, “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance; but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear; He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire.” The Lord also said, “Jn truly baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence,” even at Pentecost. Now as to John's expression, “with fire,” though tribulation also might be understood, which believers were to suffer for the name of Christ; yet may we reasonably think that the same Holy Spirit is signified also under the name of “fire.”

Joe, I discern difference in the thinking that the Holy Spirit might be the same name of Fire.. the sufficiency in understand that our Father is the consuming FIRE. We do not separate or divide Father, Son and Holy Spirit.. Knowing each are sufficient, and agree as "ONE" with the Father.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

So, you see, we should pray for those consuming fires. You weren't suggesting otherwise, were you?

I pray in the spirit of our Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus, that the Father will reveal to you what is HIS will in wisdom for you. I trust that in baptism by confessed faith in the begotten Son of God, we are gifted according to the measure, and will of God. If we follow Christ, and deny ourselves in our own pride, we can be blessed in doing the will of God with HIS hand of strength to guide us and protect us that being by HIS FIRE.

Some are even more foolish when shown the mystery of the Kingdom of God and yet “seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand… (Mark 4:12). A bigger fool will see the plain truth and not recognize it.

NOTED:
The sower soweth the word.

And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

RECOGNIZE that we must hold stedfast in ONE LORD... ONE FAITH... ONE BAPTISM
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all, so that we have all that we has been given to overcome satan.

As Peter stands unyielding as a rock in his LOVE for Christ, we too must pray in the spirit of truth that is our Faith in Christ, that our Father will grant us the blessing to be all HE created us to be. And that we bow to HIS hand of strength that can destroy evil before us. Asking in the Name of Christ...

Who has unity in baptism with the WORD, the Father of TRUTH, and the SPIRIT?

Just for clarity; if you define the Word as the 'Holy Scripture', then the above statement would make you in unity with a book. The incarnation, incarnatio (in: caro, flesh), conforming to the John's descriptuion of of Christ's conception. John (1:14), (kai ho Logos sarx egeneto), "And the Word was made flesh". Incarnation is the act of a God residing in a human. The 'word' of God refers to God's will and all creation is the product of God's will. Thus, the incarnate word is the residing of the will of God in a human, i.e., Christ, both God and man, one Divine Person with two natures.

JoeT

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Father + Son + Holy Spirit undivided=unity


To the praise of HIS glory.. (Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of HIS glory, who first trusted in Christ. )


~child of God in Chirst

[JoeT777]

Church doctrine and traditions of man are not necessarily two separate issues.

How do you say that?

[Tj3]

Still I believe that everything that comes out of God's mouth is Scripture in a way 'cause I cannot say that this word of God is special and the other one is not so special.
Everything God says is special, either it is written down or it is sound tradition!

The problem is that when people say that they heard from God, and hold to that view, they are saying that you must accept what they have said in addition to scripture, in that case, even if it adds to a doctrine or contradicts it, which is something that scripture explicitly condemns.

The way that we determine if something is of God is to follow what scripture says, for example, the Bereans tested the words of Paul (inspired by God) by going to scripture. When Jesus validated doctrine, He went to scripture. Why would men today be exempt from following in the paths of Jesus and Paul?

People indeed do hear from God topday, but whatever God says will always align with His written word.