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itsmemaths · Jun 18, 2009, 04:49 AM

How did Jesus fight the tradition and made the religion more relational?

N0help4u · Jun 18, 2009, 05:02 AM

Jesus fought religion and religious tradition, he also said the pharisees and sadducees father was the devil. That only people who were not blind could see this. So basically I would say he left the false religions to their own path and only the true believers to see the light.

homesell · Jun 18, 2009, 08:54 AM

Jesus was never angry with the thieves or prostitutes. His righteous anger was directed solely at the "good church folk" who "acted" pious but cared little for their fellow man. The leaders saw the people as sheep they could use and take advantage of - which they did. Jesus saw the thieves, prostitutes etc. as at least being honest about the lack of God in their life. The leaders professed to know God but did not.

arcura · Jun 18, 2009, 10:40 PM

itsmemaths,
Jesus opposed the traditions of men who added to the law such as no work of any kind on the Sabbath.
But the traditions of God He kept and started or added to His own such as holy baptism and the Holy Eucharist.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

homesell · Jun 19, 2009, 03:07 AM

Really Fred?
It's recorded that Jesus never baptized anybody Though John the Baptizer and others obviously did before Jesus ministry. And I've read all through 16 versions of the bible and don't even know what "Eucharist" is.

ScottGem · Jun 19, 2009, 05:13 AM

Originally Posted by itsmemaths

How did Jesus fight the tradition and made the religion more relational?

Which religion are you referring to? Jesus was a Jew so are you asking if he was trying to make Judiasm more relational? As far as I'm aware, Jesus did not set out to or try to establish a new religion, that was done by his disciples after his death and alleged resurrection.

sndbay · Jun 19, 2009, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by homesell

Really Fred?
It's recorded that Jesus never baptized anybody Though John the Baptizer and others obviously did before Jesus ministry.

By what is written in (Matthew 28:18 ) Jesus was given all power on earth and heaven. And Christ told His disciples in (Matthew 28:19-20) go teach and baptize. Plus Christ said teach all, to observe all, that I have commanded.

However, my faith and trust in baptism would rest in what Christ said, and how Christ was shown as the path to follow. Hearing HIS voice as sheep that follow HIM.

sndbay · Jun 19, 2009, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

itsmemaths,
Jesus opposed the traditions of men who added to the law such as no work of any kind on the Sabbath.
But the traditions of God He kept and started or added to His own such as holy baptism and the Holy Eucharist.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

We are called to obtain the gospel of Jesus Christ. (2 Th 2:14) That would be in the calling of salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth that is written.

It does not mean by any man's doctrine that is corruptable. We are told to stand fast, and hold the traditions which the disciples, and apostles were taught, by reveal truth of God. Noting all as being whether by the word, or their epistle. Peter himself was said by Christ, to hold that reveal truth when Peter confirmed to Christ 3 times that he loved Christ and was told to follow as Christ himself had followed HIS Father in glory. (John 21)(Matthew 16:17)

Fred, I don't see where Christ added to baptism, because it is noted in scripture being John and Christ, both suffered it as fulfilled in righteousness. (Matthew 3:15)

As for the Holy Communion we acknowledge that Christ brought us a way through the veil. That what was once by priests alone once a year through gifts and sacrifices of blood at the altar (Hebrew 9:6-9)

Christ brought a new and living way, which HE consecrated for us. That His body takes us through the veil (Hebrews 10:20), and His blood is the blood of the New Testament that finished it(Matthew 26:28) (John 19:30)

arcura · Jun 19, 2009, 09:30 PM

sndbay,
I agree.
But please note that Jesus commanded his followers to go out and baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Prior to that Jews used baptism as a cleaning ritual.
So Jesus made it a sacrament by adding the authority of the triune God to it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fr_Chuck · Jun 19, 2009, 09:41 PM

No it is not recorded that Jesus did not do any Baptisms. It merely does not list any he did. But no where do I remember it saying he never did.
Paul speaks of not doing many.

But in fact Jesus actually did follow many of the important church traditions. He went to the temple, taugh followed passover traditions, and since he entered the temple he would have also went though the rites of purification to be allowed to enter.

arcura · Jun 19, 2009, 10:47 PM

Fr_Chuck,
Very good point and the bible does tell us that Jesus went with His Disciples to where there was water and baptized, though it does not say which ones did the baptizing.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

sndbay · Jun 20, 2009, 04:28 AM

Originally Posted by arcura

sndbay,
I agree.
But please note that Jesus commanded his followers to go out and baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Prior to that Jews used baptism as a cleaning ritual.
So Jesus made it a sacrament by adding the authority of the triune God to it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

What I find different from what John was doing, we today are told in following, that before we are baptized, we are to confess faith in Christ Jesus as the Son of God.
This is written in Acts 8:37-38 that Philip said "If thou believest with all thine heart" thou mayest. Confession of ONE FAITH " I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. "

When you say it was a cleaning ritual, it is true that by the command of God, John went as the forerunner, baptizing in forgiveness for sin.

However today according to scripture baptism now SAVES us (REFER: 1 Peter 3:21) by the answer of a good conscience toward God. And in (REFER: Hebrews 10:22) we are told of the body being wash with pure water.

The 3 in ONE is included by each sufficient act commanded by God. Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and by the body of Christ that takes us through the veil, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus written in (REF:Hebrews 10:19)

The 3 in ONE delivers us, and we are chase virgins as Paul teaches. Paul's teaching is that he fears we can be beguiled like Eve was in the garden. Beguiled from the simiplity of Christ Jesus. (REF: 2 Cr 11:3)

chase meaning pure from every fault, immaculate
virgin meaning abstained from all uncleanness

REFER: 2 Cr 11:2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Faith set you free... walk in Christ as a child of God

One LORD One BAPTISM One FAITH

arcura · Jun 20, 2009, 09:17 PM

sndbay,
That was not what I was pointing out.
It is that Jesus started His own traditions.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

sndbay · Jun 21, 2009, 03:25 AM

Originally Posted by arcura

sndbay,
That was not what I was pointing out.
It is that Jesus started His own traditions.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred, Then where or what was Christ's own traditions? .. where in scripture did Christ start HIS own traditions?

In Faith, I believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are ONE. Christ's walk was not separated from the Father or the Holy Spirit..

homesell · Jun 21, 2009, 04:59 AM

Even today I sometimes meet people that "brag" about who baptized them or what church they attend, who their preacher or priest is, or what family member is a priest or preacher as if any of that, has anything to do with the person's current relationship to God. People tend to put their trust in THINGS outide of the spiritual for whatever reason. It doesn't make it right. I believe that Jesus did NOT personally baptize for this reason and that Paul followed his example. If you or I were PERSONALLY baptized in water by Jesus, wouldn't we start to trust in that fact rather than trusting in being personally Baptized by Jesus in the Spirit? Our flesh is weak and we have a tendency to rely on the physical things we have done rather than give TRUE worship that Jesus says is "In Spirit and Truth and concentrate on ongoing relationship with Him.

arcura · Jun 21, 2009, 09:17 PM

sndbay,
I already mentioned that here on this thread.
Fred

sndbay · Jun 22, 2009, 06:02 AM

Originally Posted by arcura

sndbay,

It is that Jesus started His own traditions.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

??? Why would you call them His Own?

Originally Posted by arcura

But the traditions of God He kept and started or added to His own such as holy baptism and the Holy Eucharist.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Truth is known by what is written.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

John 14:10-11 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

John 1 :18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

In the bosom of the Father means in front of the body between the arms.

sndbay · Jun 22, 2009, 06:43 AM

Originally Posted by homesell

Even today I sometimes meet people that "brag" about who baptized them or what church they attend, who their preacher or priest is, or what family member is a priest or preacher as if any of that, has anything to do with the person's current relationship to God. People tend to put their trust in THINGS outide of the spiritual for whatever reason. It doesn't make it right. I believe that Jesus did NOT personally baptize for this reason and that Paul followed his example. If you or I were PERSONALLY baptized in water by Jesus, wouldn't we start to trust in that fact rather than trusting in being personally Baptized by Jesus in the Spirit? Our flesh is weak and we have a tendency to rely on the physical things we have done rather than give TRUE worship that Jesus says is "In Spirit and Truth and concentrate on ongoing relationship with Him.

Yes many today place themselves and others on a scale. And they show favoritism, which God would never do. People see by their own measure of scale in everything that surrounds them. Truth is there is only "ONE" above us all, and God sustains us by HIS power, and mercy. The dominance between weak and strong, allows the destruction of what the weak have to offer. The evil in the destruction of the weak for example (abortion, child abuse, ect..) . That is why those chosen to the position of authority should use causion in their decisions, and listen for their heart of love to walk in Christ.

The example you brought forward of Paul and his reason behind not doing baptism is a good one. Paul clearly did not want people to think Christ was divided. (REFER: 1 Cr 1:13) And Christ would never speak of division from the Father or the Holy Spirit.
Paul did baptize the house of Stephanas which was a Christian convert of Corinth. But Paul was thankful to God not to baptize any others because he did not want people to think they were baptized in his name. (causing division) We are to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Confessing our faith in Christ who is (ONE) with the Father and Holy Spirit.

The teaching of Christ is to walk in HIM, follow HIM, hear HIS voice. It is Not to follow man, and traditions of man, which have been scaled by man's will and pride of themselves.

If you follow man, you have arrived to division from Christ. Division exists between anything that is not done following the doctrine of Christ by the Word of God, and in what Christ gave testomony in doing himself. And as Christ said many will come in my name, and shall deceive .

We are foretold to watch in discernment of good and evil, and giving up all to follow HIM.

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

~in Christ

Tj3 · Jun 22, 2009, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by sndbay

[B]Truth is known by what is written.

Right. And we are not to go beyond what is written

1 Cor 4:6
6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.
NKJV

JoeT777 · Jun 22, 2009, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by itsmemaths

How did Jesus fight the tradition and made the religion more relational?

Why would Christ 'fight' tradition? Do you recall God's revelation of Truth to Jacob, Abraham, and Mosses; was the truth revealed by God in Jacob's day any less true in antiquity, any less true than God's truth today? How else would the chosen people convey that truth from generation to generation but by tradition? Yet, you argue that the New Testament did away with the 'law'. Well it didn't. In fact, in order to believe this we'd need to put aside Christ's own words, words not given to the Jew (the Jew already knew the traditions of their faith) rather those words were spoken to the gentile, and not just any Gentile, but the procurator from Rome (Pontius Pilate). His entire mission on earth was wrapped around truth, He didn't just teach, He didn't just reveal, He gave “testimony to the truth”. (Cf. John 18:37)

Christ's faith affirmed God's Truth; His authority attests to the validity of the Truth giving hope; and in Love He submitted to the Truth. And He acclaimed the God of Jacob, the God of Abraham, and the God of Mosses. A knowledge gained by the tradition of the faith of His people. We know this without a showdown of doubt Christ said, “Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.” (Matt 5: 17). And to think some people would replace the entirety of faith with a book alone, instead of Scripture and Tradition.

JoeT

p.s. God is truth. You cannot replace God or Truth with a book alone.