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ScottGem · Jun 9, 2009, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by horriblemom

Looks like my ex gets it all, again. I don't think anyone understands that I will not get to see them ever again. Story of my life...don't fight, do the right thing and things will come around. Nothing has come around for me.

Not that's not what I'm saying and frankly, I don't think its true. But I DO think the time for fighting has past. I think you needed a better lawyer in the original divorce battle. I think you needed to put up a more stringent fight at that point. But its clear from what you have posted that your son and daughter want little is anything to do with you at this point. You can't force someone to love you and want to be with you. Trying to do so is usually counterproductive and has the opposite affect.

You need to understand what the law will and won't allow. You need to familiarize yourself with the statutes governing Family court proceedings. You have to deal with this from a position of strength and that does not appear to be what you have done in the past. So you now find yourself in a position that forces you to give in to a certain extent.

So, yes, at this point in time, you do need to take the high road (IMHO) and back off. Forcing yourself on your children has clearly not worked in the last 3-4 years so why would you think that would change? Your children are on the immature side. They have been manipulated and brainwashed. Unfortunately, there is little you can do about that until they drow up more. I really do think, that if you take the high road as I suggested, let them know your door is always open to them but you will respect their wishes and back off, then they will come around when they awaken and mature.

Holly23 · Jun 9, 2009, 09:23 AM

Excuse me you gave me a red mark for saying that when your 16 you can decide, And then I said that's the law where I live and it is.Its a fact.So please refrain from giving me red marks when it's a fact ScotGem!!

ScottGem · Jun 9, 2009, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by Holly23

Excuse me you gave me a red mark for saying that when your 16 you can decide, And then I said thats the law where I live and it is.Its a fact.So please refrain from giving me red marks when its a fact ScotGem!!!!!!

You said; "Ithink your daughter can gecide who she wants to live with oce she turns 16".

I know of nowhere, especially in the US where a minor child (under 18) is allowed to decide which parent they live with. If you believe that is incorrect, then please cite the law to back it up. Until you do I have to go by the facts as I know them. Please check your facts before you claim something is a fact, or be ready to back them up.

susangpyp · Jun 9, 2009, 10:37 AM

The court will usually take a adolescent's preference into account. While the court has the last word and makes the determination, the child's preference is taken into consideration if there are no other factors weighing heavily against the child's preference.

stevetcg · Jun 9, 2009, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by Holly23

Excuse me you gave me a red mark for saying that when your 16 you can decide, And then I said thats the law where I live and it is.Its a fact.So please refrain from giving me red marks when its a fact ScotGem!!!!!!

A 16 year old cannot decide. Their opinion MAY be taken into consideration, but ultimately the court decides.

ScottGem · Jun 9, 2009, 10:53 AM

I saw, in aother thread, that you indicated you were in Ireland. So I did a little research. Custody of a child comes under the 1997 Children's Act (see Irish Statute Book, Acts of the Oireachtas, Children Act, 1997)

The pertinent section is 11-25 which states:
Wishes of child.

25.—In any proceedings to which section 3 applies, the court shall, as it thinks appropriate and practicable having regard to the age and understanding of the child, take into account the child's wishes in the matter.

The act further defines a child as under 18.

So, as I and others have said, A child does NOT decide. A child can express their preference, but the decision is made by the court.

Again, please check your facts before posting inaccurate information.

Holly23 · Jun 9, 2009, 10:55 AM

I apologize

ScottGem · Jun 9, 2009, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Holly23

I apologize

Thank you! None of us is immune from making a mistake. But we do pride ourselves on the accuracy of the advice we give. The comments feature is mostly there for correcting errors of fact. Most of use WANT to be corrected when we make an error of fact.

horriblemom · Jun 9, 2009, 01:41 PM

I agree, I should have gotten a better lawyer originally, but I could not afford one because the lawyer I hired took all of the fee up front and I had nothing left. I had given EVERYTHING to my ex just to leave the kids alone.

I haven't forced anyone to be with me, but I do show up every time I have visitation and give them the opportunity to go with me. They refuse and I leave. In my decree it says I have to pick my daughter up at my ex's residence, which means I will be making a 600 mile round trip once a week for her to tell me no. Thanks for the advice. This just confirms what I already knew (but really didn't want to accept).

ScottGem · Jun 9, 2009, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by horriblemom

I haven't forced anyone to be with me, but I do show up every time I have visitation and give them the opportunity to go with me. They refuse and I leave. In my decree it says I have to pick my daughter up at my ex's residence, which means I will be making a 600 mile round trip once a week for her to tell me no.

That's actually good. If you can prove you show up regularly, even if they don't come with you, it still means that he will be materially affecting your visitation rights by moving. This means you have a better than average chance of blocking the move.

justcurious55 · Jun 9, 2009, 02:03 PM

I have to ask then about the situation you mentioned with the sheriff and you telling her strongly to get in the car?

If my mother had been able to take the high road, I'm pretty sure my entire life could be different right now. But no. she would leave nasty voicemails for my aunt and uncle on the home phone that my brother and I could hear. She would send letters guilt tripping me about not seeing her (the week after she sat in court or counseling calling me a spoiled, lying b!#$&). Or she'd show up at my work to harass me. I'm not saying you're doing the same. But I'm trying to point out how sometimes the less you do is better. A nice note, short and sweet "i love you. my door is always open. i'm respecting your space..." might be your best bet right now. Don't make my mother's mistake and follow it up with I'm sorry, but I really should have to be saying so because xyz... or anything of the sort.

horriblemom · Jun 10, 2009, 06:54 AM

justcurious55, My ex kept saying that to hear him tell it, I don't show up to pick up the kids. At this time, my son was 17 and my daughter 14. My daughter got in my truck, and I went up to the house to invite my son to go too. At the door, I told him I loved him and would really like it if he would at least go out to eat or just sit and talk a while, and he cursed me and said the most aweful things you've ever heard.

I called a deputy to come over to document that I was there to pick up the kids. In this town, the sheriff does not get involved in domestic situations, but my attorney said I needed proof that I go to pick up the kids and to call someone over to document it. When the cop pulled up, my daughter jumps out of the truck and starts running up the stairs and I told her "get back in the truck". She told me "I don't have to do anything you say because you do not have custody of me! " So I pointed at the truck and said seriously "Get in the truck." She turned to walk up to the house anyway, and the deputy said "come here young lady. Is this your mom? You don't speak to your mom like that. Go get in the truck!" She later told me that she thought I had the cop come over to arrest my son because my son threatened to rip me to pieces, but I would never have called the cops on him.

I have always reinforced that I love the kids. I certainly would never leave ugly messages. On the night I left my ex, he told me he was going to blow his head off and let my son find him if I didn't get home right then. In the same conversation, he said he was taking my son and leaving the state and I would never see him again. On the same night, he told me that I would never draw a penny of child support from him, and I explained that I had supported the family for 16 years, and I didn't need child support from him to raise the kids... and then he would go to something else. He had forbid me to ever tell our children that I was married for a few months just out of high school, and on the night I left, he showed the divorce decree to my son and shocked him. My son had helped me move and completely understood as I always had to slip money back to him that his dad took for gambling.

The first visit he got with my daughter, she decided she hated me. She too was given the decree to read and things went downhill from there. I have shown up when I am supposed to, I've written letters, even made a video for my son telling him I love and miss him. I sent him $100 for his birthday and he threw it in the trash, and my ex made sure I knew that he collected and kept the money.

I've decided what I'm going to do. I am going to draw up papers that allow them to move wherever they want, but I keep my rights to my daughter so that if she ever wants to come and visit, she can and it will be at my expense. I will stop inviting her to come see me, and she can come to me when she wants to. I am turning it over to God from there.

ANB428 · Jun 10, 2009, 07:13 AM

I know that this must be very hard for you and I am sorry that you are going through all of this. I am glad to hear that you are giving it all to God though. God has a reason for everything, although we don't understand it most of the time. I just want to let you know that there is hope at the end of the tunnel. Don't give up on your kids and one day (hopefully) they will see what their father is doing to them. My mom used to talk down on my father all the time as I was growing up and it made me dislike her more and more the more she said. Maybe on day your kids will find out all the lies their father is telling them and they will finally see the truth. It is good that you are there for them and will be if they ever need you. Don't give up hope, and be patient. God will show you what to do, if you let him. Good luck and please keep us updated on everything. Again, I am sorry that you are going through this, I can only imagine how much pain your heart is in.

susangpyp · Jun 10, 2009, 07:32 AM

I suggest you make sure, through an advocate or someone, that she definitely knows you love her and want to see her when she's ready.

Teenagers are funny and when they only hear one side of things they tend to believe that side. Try to get a message to her that you love her, will always love her and will be there for her no matter what and she is welcome to open up communication at any time. Maybe you can make this a condition for giving your permission for the move. You have some leverage and may want to use it here.

justcurious55 · Jun 10, 2009, 08:03 AM

Yeah, susangyp has a point there. While it sounds like you have a good plan, if you don't make sure the truth is explained to her, her father seems like the kind of jerk that's going to sit there and say something along hate lines of "your mom doesn't care. she signed away her rights...let's move now." even though its not close to the truth.

horriblemom · Jun 10, 2009, 08:34 AM

susangpyp and justcurious55, thanks so much for talking with me about this and making such good points. My fear was that if I stopped showing up and didn't try and fight for them (just my daughter now since my son is grown) that they would think I quit on them.

I told her this past Sunday during an hour long talk when I tried to pick her up how on the day she was born, I knew she'd be my buddy for life and that I will always be a constant in her life (as I've always been) and that she could call me anytime for any reason. I asked her if she believed I would show up if she called me to get her out of a bad sitation, and she started laughing and said "yeah, I know you would and whoever caused the bad situation would be in for it too!"

She kept looking at her feet and didn't want to look me in the eye when we talked. Every time she looked me in the eye, she smiled. Then she would make herself upset again by saying that I had gone on with my life and was teaching kids riding lessons again etc without her.

This sent me into a tailspin of confusion. Its like she has to work at being mad. When she was coming over, she swam, rode horses, played with her cousin, practiced shooting, shot off fireworks and seemed to have a great time. Only to later come back and say she didn't want to be a part of my "new" family. I bought her a car (but didn't tell her it was for her) because she is nearing 16, but now I am not going to give it to her unless she comes back around. I've had it for a year or so. I don't want her to think I'm trying to buy her love. It isn't a new car or anything, but it is a cute little car with a sunroof etc that she would have enjoyed. I'm just going to wait until my son gets settled in college and send him yet another letter telling him again that I love and miss him. If he ever speaks to me respectfully, I would be happy to help him with college, but I'm not going to help with him calling me names and being ugly. I will also write my daughter and confirm that again and let her know that all she has to do is contact me if she wants to see me.

Thanks so much... you've really helped me get through this tailspin. I guess I turned it over to God and tried to take it back. I hate it when I do that!

justcurious55 · Jun 10, 2009, 08:56 AM

Yeah, I wouldn't give her the car. If she decides to come visit you later, maybe she gets the car while she is there. But only when there.
Sounds like you're doing everything you can. Hopefully they'll come around.

ScottGem · Jun 10, 2009, 02:19 PM

Your post #36 relates an interesting story. It makes it sound very much like the father is making things uncomfortable for her if she tries to have a relationship with you.

I agree not to give her the car, not even mention it. But the next time you are with her, I would try discussing these things with her. I would tell her that you don't want to come between her and her dad, just as you would expect he doesn't try to come between the two of you.

Go on to tell her that she is old enough to decide on her own whether she wants a relationship with you or not. You will still be there for her no matter what she chooses, but you will respect her choice.

If the father is trying to turn her against you, I think she will see the differences and come around.

horriblemom · Jun 11, 2009, 10:34 AM

Thanks for all of your advise. I just have to let go even though I wasn't finished raising my children yet. I have invited my daughter every day for a week (since she is really supposed to be here for visitation) and invited her to go an activity each day, and each day she says NO.

I told her today that I love her and that she can rest assured that if she ever invites me to do something, she will not get the same response from me as I got from her. I also told her that I would always love her and would be here for her if she decides to contact me and that she knows where I am. I told her I was going to back off and let her go since that is what she wants from me, but that I do love her. She responded by saying she loves me too. That was good enough for now. I think this is what I need to do.

justcurious55 · Jun 11, 2009, 10:43 AM

Yes, I think that is what you needed to do too. It may take time, but I think she'll realize that you mean it.

By the way, someone earlier posted that your user name fits you perfectly. I never agreed. But I think this is proof that it doesn't. It takes a very loving mother to step back and give their children space and be able to say "ok, i love you but i'm going to leave you alone because its what you want right now."