[arcura]

I must agree with Donn.
The proper tithe is 10% of our gross if not more.
Much is expected from those who have been given much,
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[ISneezeFunny]

So you're saying... I should pay 10% of my overall gross income before costs incurred?

I own a small fast food restaurant. On a decent week, I'll make $20k gross. So I should tithe $2k a week?

[homesell]

Isneezefunny,
That example has already been used. Pray about it. You cannot outgive God. Read the book "The Treasure Principal" by Randy Alcorn. That book had a deep effect on me and my relationship with God and money. Sorry about a severely impaired presence for the next nine years that you mentioned. May God go with you by being in you.

[speechlesstx]

In my opinion, neither. Give from a willing heart, not a calculated percentage.

[arcura]

ISneezeFunny ,
Yes that is what you should give.
God, IN HIS WAY will return that and much more.
Try it for awhile and see.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[cozyk]

[

Jeff, if you are tithing on your net, then you are cheating God!

[/QUOTE]
Oh Donn, you are so WRONG on this.

Number one, you don't know Jeff's relationship with his god and to make such a statement is audacious. Tithing doe3sn,t have to be about money only. Our time and talent given in the glory of God is our gift to God too. How do you measure that? He may well be giving much more than 10% between his money, time, and talent.

Number Two When I was little, I got 30 cents a week for allowance. In Sunday school, I used to put a nickel in the offering plate. There was a girl in my class ( look down you nose Cindy Terry) that made fun of me because my offering was so small. Her father gave her money to drop in the plate and it was much more than mine. I explained to her that I made 30 cents/week. That 10% would be 3 cents and that I was actually giving more than 10%. I felt embarrassed and stupid because of her judgment. I tell this story just to point out AGAIN one of the many reasons, I associate the term christian with hypocrite. I was going over and above what the literal word of the bible required and it still was looked down on by other christians. It made me think that christians hearts were not always in the right place and that our biggest gift to God would be to behave in a way that was "Christ like". Tithing is not all about money. To say he is cheating God sounds like something that Cindy person would say.

[cozyk]

No help,
I hope this helps.
There are many people that ask about the definition of the tithe compared other types of gifts. The tithe definition in its broadest sense means a tenth of one’s increase - Deuteronomy 14:22. That is the broadest definition of tithe that is accepted by most of the population. There are even more defined meanings of tithing out there. For instance some would say that the definition of the tithe by nature, goes to your local church, and is taken off of your gross income. This is because the tithe was delivered to the local storehouse in the Old Testament - Malachi 3:10, and in Proverbs 3:9 we are to honor the Lord with the first fruits of our increase.

Scholars and theologians constantly debate about the tithe definition. Mainly because the tithe’s function was prescribed in detail in the old testament, defined for the nation of Israel, and was not done so for the Church in the NT. There seems to be many holes and many opportunities for personal interpretation of how we should prescribe the tithe into the New Testament Church.

The definition of the tithe was very simple and plainly laid out for Israel. They were to gather their harvest and count the tithe out from what they’ve gathered. For instance, if you had 100 apples, you must count them out from one-to-ten, and the tenth one you set aside for the Lord - Leviticus 27:32. As is stated in the previous verse, it did not matter if that tenth one was bruised or under-sized, you still set it aside. Also, you set the tenth one aside, not the first one aside.

There were other rules under the tithe definition. First, the tithe generally went to the Levites, and in turn the levites gave a tenth of their tenth to the priestly line for the work of the temple. Next, there were generally three different “types” of the tithe. first, was the poor tithe - Deuteronomy 26:12. Second, was the feast tithe - Deuteronomy 14:22-23. Third, was the Levitical tithe - Numbers 18:24. Practically, the tithe included the poor and the Levites all the time, but those are generally how the tithe is categorized. The feast tithe was the most unique and was consumed by the whole nation of Israel as a feast celebration.

Most people argue that the total amount of tithes given by Israel equaled over 23%. I don’t follow that logic, just for the simple fact that when the bible says 10% of all your increase, generally it means just 10%. Maybe that’s too simple minded? I don’t know? Also genealogy and numbering records have shown that a 10% gift from the whole nation of Israel was plenty enough to take care of the small tribe of Levi.

Now that we got an abridged version of the tithe definition for Israel, what about the definition for the Church? Truthfully, you are asking the wrong person. I feel the definition of the tithe for the church is far more complicated than the IRS tax code. Like i said above, the definition of tithing for the New Testament Church has many holes and opportunities for personal interpretation. I’m of the persuasion that it doesn’t belong in the Spirit-led Church. I know. . . I know what you’re saying, how can the Church operate without the tithe? Well, first of all, the Church is not the nation of Israel so it has no need to operate under Israel’s strict code of laws. The Church operates under the capacity of the Holy Spirit in tune with the principles of God’s word. Yes, God’s word said don’t eat unclean meat, circumcise your sons, tithe of your increase . . . and so forth, but i said the Holy Spirit is in tune with the PRINCIPLES of God’s word.

I say you like to make things complicated for the fun of it. Well, fun for you. All this is ridiculous. Give in accordance with YOUR heart and you don't need to concern yourself with anyone else's heart. That is between them and God.

[arcura]

cozyk,
You have made a good point.
I have given 10 % of my gross, plus time and effort to the Church.
If I had given less money in the long run total of all efforts I still may have given more than 10%.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[papili]

Are we all in agreement that that's between you and God? I think so. Though personally I will tithe from gross. Because I knew that from before, only that when my salary increased, I felt like that's too much to give, but I knew deep inside what God is telling me. But from what I have grown up knowing, is that its 10% gross. I am not saying that this is the right amount but for me, this is. But reading from all the posts you guys have sent, I felt like we are confusing three things: tithe, offering and First Fruits. Can somebody really diferentiate the three in a very simple way please.

[homesell]

As simple as I can make it without elaboration or explanation.

Tithe -10%
Offering - Everything given over and
Above a tithe.
Firstfruits -The best of what God has
Given you as soon as you
Receive it.

[speechlesstx]

scholars and theologians debate so that takes us back to square one since it is not specified in the Bible that 10% of gross income should be tithed to the church.

Sapphire, I don't know where people get that either. Even though we are not under the law to tithe but to give "as every man has purposed in his heart" I believe it says, the "increase" to me is exactly that. Whatever I net after taxes seems to be the increase to me. But since it isn't about a calculated percentage it's irrelevant in my opinion.

[SailorMark]

I am probably going to get hammered for this but I don't tithe on net or gross. I am in the midst of a total money makeover and since I have debt I am a slave to the debtor. Until I pay off that debt, the money doesn't belong to me to give, it belongs to the lender. I am paying off my debt quickly so I can the ability to give much more to the church later.

[jakester]

Homesell, 450donn, nohelp, et al - this is my response to a similar post which included comments addressed to other members, so disregard those personal responses. Homesell, I totally agree with your earlier posts about grace and giving.

-------Previous post--------------

"I'd like to piggy-back on what TITHE and REVDRGADE have said.

First, with respect to TITHE's comments, I agree. The tithe outlined in the Old Testament law included a lawful, obligatory giving to the priesthood that God had ordained through the covenant. People were required to give a “tithe” to priests much in the same manner that we are required to pay our taxes. The tithe in Israel consisted of a portion of people's wealth set aside for the priests, who were required to officiate in the performance of their priestly duties and could not make a living outside of this office to which they were called by God. Under the Old Testament law the Israelites lived under a theocracy where God was their king and the priests were the mediators between the people and God. The priests collected the tithes and used the money for various things like dividing the money for the Levites themselves, the various feasts, and for the poor. However, the amount that the people were obligated to pay amounted to more than 10% but was probably closer to something like 23% because it appears that God had divided up tithes into different categories to be taken at key times throughout the year.

However, a careful reading of the Old Testament sections concerning tithes will reveal that beyond what was required in the tithe, there was such a thing as a free-will offering. For this, there was no law. The people were required to pay their tithes for the sake of the Levites, the observances of the feasts and for the poor. The people were obligated to give these tithes under the covenant and I'm arguing that it is very similar to our personal income taxes that we pay today as well as the taxation that all were subject to under the Roman rule, including Jesus. But when it came to giving something to God out of personal thankfulness or a joyful or glad heart, God was not requiring a set amount. It was up to the individual whether he or she wanted to give at all and how much he or she wanted to give.

When we move to the New Testament, Paul's teaching on giving is linked to the idea of grace. First he says, "So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver.” If giving to God in the sense of a free-will offering were required, why would it be called free-will and why would Paul say that we should not give “out of necessity?” Not only that but he says “let each one give as he or she PURPOSES in his or her heart.” Paul is affirming that giving is entirely up to the individual believer and is not a requirement from God. The only time Paul ever commands us to give our money is in Romans 13:

“Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.”

My own sentiment is that tithing is predominately taught out of misunderstanding, greediness on the part of some, and distrust in the good heartnedness of God's people by those who are in authority (in other words, some in authority don't believe people will give freely so they compel them to give by teaching about tithing). If we give to God it should be because we want to from the goodness of our heart not because of guilt, a sense of obligation, or of peer-pressure. It is better to give nothing at all than to give from the wrong motives because God will not accept such an offering, “…for God loves a cheerful giver.”

Lastly, touching upon what Revdrgade said, if we give thinking that we will garner favor from God or worse—salvation—we have got to come to an understanding of who God is and what He desires from us. He doesn't need our money and He certainly won't be bought off. Salvation is something He gives of His own will not from being coerced in any way. That's an entirely different discussion but I thought I'd just mention this very briefly here.

[450donn]

As always Jakster, a very thoughtful comment. I have only one more comment to what you and everyone else has said.
Many seem to be under the misconception that Jesus came to fulfill the law, However in MT 5:17 it teaches us "Do not think that I came to abolish the law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say unto you, Until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the law until all is accomplished.
So based on that passage it appears to me that we are to still live under the Law. Jesus came and fulfill the Law, but he does not teach that we are to ignore the Law. Therefore tithing is still a biblical principal. So each at this point must understand the tithe and then decide what to do about that understanding. Personally, I have been unemployed for 5 months, my wife also lost her job. So here we sit with no income save for unemployment and I still tithe on that. Guess what? All of my bills are still being paid up in the same week they come in, I can still buy groceries to feed my family and put gas in my cars. So as far as I am concerned the tithe principal works.

[arcura]

papili,
Did you realize that your increase in salary was due to God's intent that you will be rewarded for tithing 10%?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[cozyk]

papili,
Did you realize that your increase in salary was due to God's intent that you will be rewarded for tithing 10%?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Or it could just be a coincidence.:rolleyes:

[arcura]

cozyk
Yes it could be either way.
I'd give God the credit anyway.
Fred

[papili]

papili,
Did you realize that your increase in salary was due to God's intent that you will be rewarded for tithing 10%?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Yes, I know it's because of tithing. This is a personal testimony: a few years back, when money was tight, I would decide to spend on my tithe. Its not just me, but my family. And I tell you poverty stroke us left and right, food would lack, fare and basic needs. We would become sick one by one. This is not a coincidence for me, When God says in Malachi that we dare Him if He won't open the gates of heaven to provide for us, I believe Him. I have seen Him providing for us. We would go for months without paying rent(Thank God our landlord was a relative) and the rent was so cheap, a college stuent would afford. We moved to another place and the rent is 4times the amount we used to pay, but somehow God provides. Right now we are planning to get our own Home.

This is my experience. So whether am Under the law or not. This is what I choose. One cannot cheat themselves and God. We shall be judged by what we know. Even now, God knows what you know, so if you believe tithing, should be done in this or that way, God will provide for you according to what He knows you know, and what you have chosen to do about it.

[cozyk]

Yes, i know it's because of tithing. this is a personal testimony: a few years back, when money was tight, i would decide to spend on my tithe. its not just me, but my family. and i tell you poverty stroke us left and right, food would lack, fare and basic needs. we would become sick one by one. This is not a coincidence for me, When God says in Malachi that we dare Him if He wont open the gates of heaven to provide for us, I believe Him. I have seen Him providing for us. We would go for months without paying rent(Thank God our landlord was a relative) and the rent was so cheap, a college stuent would afford. we moved to another place and the rent is 4times the amount we used to pay, but somehow God provides. Right now we are planning to get our own Home.

This is my experience. so whether am Under the law or not. this is what i choose. One cannot cheat themselves and God. We shall be judged by what we know. Even now, God knows what you know, so if you belive tithing, should be done in this or that way, God will provide for you according to what He knows you know, and what you have chosen to do about it.

If you could not afford the low rent from your relative that allowed you to go without paying, how and why would you move to a place that is 4 times the amt. you used to pay? And now, you are planning to buy a home? How did you go from not being able to pay your landlord his due to buying a home. Where did the money come from all of a sudden. Did you pay your landlord relative all the back rent?

[papili]

If you could not afford the low rent from your relative that allowed you to go without paying, how and why would you move to a place that is 4 times the amt. you used to pay? And now, you are planning to buy a home? How did you go from not being able to pay your landlord his due to buying a home. Where did the money come from all of a sudden. Did you pay your landlord relative all the back rent?

Cozyk, that was later. It didn't happen overnight. It was a couple of years back. We used to put aside tithe to take to church, but by the time Sunday came, we had used up the money. In all these years, we laboured so hard had and had little to show for it. We new we were stealing from God and therefore, God was not opening his doors to provide as we wanted. Yes, we paid our landlord all the money, and, we could now afford to move to a better house, 4times the amount of the previous because we could afford it. After learning from our mistakes, we started tithing.Personally, before taking my tithe to church, I used to pray to God and quote His Word where He says to dare Him if he will not provide.

In a nutshell, we have moved from a state of poverty at its lowest to a state of providence. Not great wealth(but we will get there by faith) but providence. We can see how far we have come. Every time we remind each other of how far we have come and its only by Gods Grace.