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ETWolverine · May 18, 2009, 09:51 AM

Excon,

We knew that KSM was one of the highest level planners in AQ. We knew who he met with. We knew how long he met with them. We knew what the people he had met with had done. Ergo, we knew that he had information that we needed. We didn't GUESS, we didn't THINK IT. We KNEW it for a fact. You just can't accept that.

And you miss the entire point of what I was saying with regard to sacrificing my soul. I'm willing to sacrifice mine so that you don't have to sacrifice yours.

Elliot

tomder55 · May 18, 2009, 09:58 AM

Neti Pots

spitvenom · May 18, 2009, 09:59 AM

I just have one question Why are there Photos in the first place. I learned very early in my teenage years that Pictures = Evidence. So when I had a party at my house first rule NO PICTURES. Is this standard procedure to take pictures of prisoners? Please some one tell me why they took pictures just seems stupid.

ETWolverine · May 18, 2009, 10:01 AM

Here's a question, excon.

Of all the terrorists held at Gitmo... something like 650 people... why were only three subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques? If the CIA was so clueless as to what information was held by which detainees, why would they have picked only three detainees to "torture"? Why not torture all of them?

Could it be that the interrogators KNEW which guys had information they needed and what type of information it was? That perhaps they weren't as clueless about what the terrorists knew as you seem to be? Perhaps they weren't working in a vacuum and had corroborating information on which to base their interrogations.

Nahhhh, couldn't be. They only THOUGHT they knew.

Elliot

excon · May 18, 2009, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by ETWolverine

Ergo, we knew that he had information that we needed. We didn't GUESS, we didn't THINK IT. We KNEW it for a fact. You just can't accept that.

And you miss the entire point of what I was saying with regard to sacrificing my soul. I'm willing to sacrifice mine so that you don't have to sacrifice yours.

Hello again, El:

Keep going. You're making my point...

So, we waterboarded KSM, NOT because he knew of IMMENENT attacks. NOT because there was a ticking time bomb, but because he was a leader and we just generally wanted to know what he knew...

That's despicable. It's against the law. It's NOT what we said we were doing. You HAVE given up your soul.

Look, if you want to throw yourself on a grenade to save my life, cool. But, DO NOT TORTURE IN MY NAME!

excon

ETWolverine · May 18, 2009, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by spitvenom

I just have one question Why are there Photos in the first place. I learned very early in my teenage years that Pictures = Evidence. So when I had a party at my house first rule NO PICTURES. Is this standard procedure to take pictures of prisoners? Please some one tell me why they took pictures just seems stupid.

The CIA documents EVERYTHING they do so that they can provide that documentation to their oversite body... known as CONGRESS. You see, the CIA doesn't lie to Congress. They document everything that they provide to Congress, and they document when and how and to whom they provide that information to Congress so that nobody can accuse them of lying to Congress or revealing something they shouldn't have revealed.

Apparently Stretch Pelosi forgot that the CIA is one of the best organizations in the world at providing documentation of what it is they do, why they do it, and who they report that information to. That's why Pelosi could have the chutzpah to lie to the press and think she could get away with it. She simply forgot who she was dealing with when she tried to throw them under the bus by saying they never told her what they were doing.

But the point is that the CIA documents EVERYTHING they do. They need to be able to document who was there and under what circumstances they participated. That is why pictures exist. (It also provides training material for the next generation of agents, but that is another matter.)

But CONGRESS IS SUPPOSED TO KEEP THAT INFORMATION SECRET.

Elliot

ETWolverine · May 18, 2009, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, El:

Keep going. You're making my point...

So, we waterboarded KSM, NOT because he knew of IMMENENT attacks. NOT because there was a ticking time bomb, but because he was a leader and we just generally wanted to know what he knew...

Where did you get that? What did I say that gave you that impression?

That's despicable. It's against the law.

No. It's not. And that's the point.

It's NOT what we said we were doing. You HAVE given up your soul.

It's not what we were doing. There was specific information that we were obtaining. It wasn't just a fishing expidition. If it was, they would have tortured EVERYONE. They didn't. They knew who they were interrogating, what it is they were looking for, and why they needed the information. That's why they ONLY DID IT TO THREE PEOPLE.

Look, if you want to throw yourself on a grenade to save my life, cool. But, DO NOT TORTURE IN MY NAME!

OK. I'll do it for myself and my family, and for all those Americans who's lives will be saved by it. Consider your name out of the issue. Now let the CIA get back to doing its job.

Elliot

spitvenom · May 18, 2009, 10:28 AM

If Pelosi lied she should be punished. But to me giving the order to torture should be a far heavier penalty then lying about knowing. Personally this seems like a pathetic attempt to take the spotlight off the real problem.

spitvenom · May 18, 2009, 10:33 AM

HMMMMMM...

Bush-era torture aimed to 'link al Qaeda, Iraq'

speechlesstx · May 18, 2009, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by tomder55

Neti Pots

I haven't used a Neti pot but until my Waterpik gave up the ghost I used it to waterboard my sinuses from time to time.

tomder55 · May 18, 2009, 10:59 AM

If Lawrence Wilkerson knew that to be a fact then why did he wait until now to say something ? He has been blowing his pie hole about Cheney since at least 2005. He was part of the Powell ,Armitage cabal that opposed the Iraq war from the beginning . Now they are doing CYA because they played a key part in it.

As Liz Cheney said this weekend on ABC 'This Week' Wilkerson "has made a cottage industry of fantasies about the vice president" .

Indeed ;this is what he told CNN about his claim.
“I couldn't walk into a courtroom and prove this to anybody, but I'm pretty sure it's fairly accurate.”

Al Libi's original testimony regarding Iraq AQ links occurred months before Wilkerson says waterboarding was used to get this admission out of him.

Heck ;even the left leaning New Republic says he's a nut job.
The Latest Delusions of Lawrence Wilkerson - The Plank

speechlesstx · May 18, 2009, 11:06 AM

Pretty sure it's fairly accurate? If that's a good enough argument against the administration it should be a good enough argument for the interrogations, we were pretty sure KSM knew stuff.

ETWolverine · May 18, 2009, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by spitvenom

If Pelosi lied she should be punished. But to me giving the order to torture should be a far heavier penalty then lying about knowing. Personally this seems like a pathetic attempt to take the spotlight off of the real problem.

There is no real problem. That's the point. The "problem" was created by the Dems as an excuse to bash Bush and by extension the Republican Party. No laws have been broken, no rights have been violated, and there is no reason that any of this is in the media at all.

Furthermore, for one of the loudest protestors (Pelosi) to end up having not only known about it but to have also approved it, and then LYING about that fact... THAT's a chutzpah.

If she and her committee approved of the EIT, then there was no law being broken. Her committee is the determinant of what is and what is not allowed, and she approved it. Ergo, there was no law broken, because her approval IS THE LAW. For her to now say that she didn't know about it is nothing more than an attempt to politicize something that was never a political issue to begin with. And now everyone sees it for what it is.

inthebox · May 18, 2009, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by excon

Hello in:

Right now we've got people saying, that all we did was dunk 'em in the water for a few seconds.... It ain't nothing...

If that's all we did, why are you so opposed to their release?

excon

Answering a question with a question ? :confused:

IF the CIA is prosecuted for torture and the fall guys are convicted, WHAT PURPOSE IS THERE TO PUBLISHING PHOTOS OF THEIR CRIMES?

EX,
Do you want to see pictures of the victim of a serial killer? What purpose is there?

Publishing the photos is a purely political maneuver by those on the left, just like Jane Fonda's Vietnam pictures - it is meant to sway public opinion against a war effort. Admit it you know this is true. :rolleyes:

G&P

excon · May 18, 2009, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by inthebox

Do you want to see pictures of the victim of a serial killer? What purpose is there?

Hello again, in:

The pictures aren't the point. Owning up to what WE DID is the point.

I didn't have anything to do with what a serial killer did. I DO have something to do with torture that is done in MY name.

It appears to be a distinction that's lost on your side.

excon

inthebox · May 18, 2009, 02:58 PM

WE DID? I did not torture anyine, did you?

Who said torture was ever done in YOUR NAME?

G&P

excon · May 18, 2009, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by inthebox

Who said torture was ever done in YOUR NAME?

Hello in:

I don't know how you dance around these things, and come up with this stuff. Is it simply to avoid responsibility?

This IS a government OF the people and BY the people... So, whatever my government does, it does in MY and YOUR name.

Maybe that's why you think torture is OK, because you didn't do it yourself... That's nuts.. Your hands are dirty too.

excon

inthebox · May 18, 2009, 03:14 PM

So, whatever my government does, it does in MY and YOUR name.

The government sends $400 million abroad to planned parenthood, the biggest purveyor of KILLING THE UNBORN.

I am for life, but what this administration does is on their hands not mine.

And according to your reasoning, then IF those who waterboarded are convicted of torture, then Obama, and Pelosi, and you , and I are equally responsible and should pay the price?

It is you who are dancing around the question of what is the purpose of publishing the photos is.

You know it is purely political, the left wing's anti- American agenda. You should own up to that.

G&P

Skell · May 18, 2009, 04:50 PM

So Elliot you've shifted from the argument that 'it isn't torture so its not illegal' to 'it is torture, but we had to do it to save lives'?

And because they are 'POW's' its OK..

So my questions is along the lines of what excon asks.. If you think its necessary to torture these really bad terrorists, why not torture pedophiles, drug dealers and murderers who know things that can save lives? Why stop at Muslim terrorists??

I'm guessing deep down you think that should happen?

galveston · May 18, 2009, 07:20 PM

US citizens and enemy combatants are not under the same rules.

No matter what you say.