[Tj3]

So the following is meaningless to you, that salvation is ongoing for Christians?

Again, please don't twist my words. I never said that anything was meaningless.

"The word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are being saved [Greek participle in present tense], it is the power of God" (1 Cor. 1:18).

Many people are being saved. This does not mean that we are halfway through being saved, it means that at any point in time, the Holy Spirit is working on the hearts of the unsaved and we find people around the world coming to Christ and being saved.

Phil. 2:12 says: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." The Philippian converts were to make effective for themselves the new life that the Holy Spirit had put into their hearts. Again, Christians are being saved through the work of the Spirit, a progressive salvation/sanctification. It has to do not with soul, nor with body, but with life, with growing in grace.

First, if you are suggesting that this refers to a process, and that we are all unsaved now or 10% saved, or 50% saved, then you must be saying that it is not God who saves, but us since this is telling us to work out our salvation.

But no, that cannot be what it means because the next verse says:

Phil 2:12-14
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
NKJV

In context, both local and the rest of scripture, this is speaking of taking the work that God has already done in us seriously (in fear and trembling) and not taking it lightly. We are not just to carry on as before, but our salvation must change us and must show in how we live. Further, this speaks to the other thread on whether it is possible for us to reject our salvation, because this also speaks to our perseverance to the end.

Have you ever heard people say that a couple must work at their marriage? Does that mean that they are not married and will only be married when they come to the end and die? No, that would be silly. What it means is that once you are married, it is important to continue to work at the marriage.

Christians shall be saved from the presence of sin.

Rom. 8:23 -- this future salvation is "the redemption of our body" that will take place in the resurrection of those who sleep in Christ (1 Cor. 15:52-56). Then the regenerated spirit will enter into the full fruition of salvation, as Akoue stated.

Rom 8:23-24
23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
NKJV

This refers to when we received our glorified bodies, with the corruption of sin or sickness. Different topic. The fact that our bodies get sick due to the effects of sin in the world does not mean that those who receive Christ as saviour are any less saved.

and

1 Cor 15:52
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
NKJV

This refers to the rapture of the saints.

I still see nothing to refute what Paul said about the salvation of the individuals being in the past sense.


BTW, I notice that you made no effort to respond to that message. Was that scripture reference meaningless to you?

[Fr_Chuck]

You may not be 50 or 10 percent saved, but we are 50 to 70 percent close to closing this thread if we don't stop the fighting back and forth

[Wondergirl]

Many people are being saved. This does not mean that we are halfway through being saved

Did I say that? No, I didn't. I said that salvation is linked with sanctification and that the whole package is a process that ends in heaven.

First, if you are suggesting that this refers to a process, and that we are all unsaved now or 10% saved, or 50% saved, then you must be saying that it is not God who saves, but us since this is telling us to work out our salvation.

That's not what I said. No wonder you are having problems understanding "my interpretation."

Phil 2:12-14
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13for it is God who works [present tense] in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. NKJV

[sndbay]

Christians shall be saved from the presence of sin.

Gal 3:1-3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?(KJV)

Roman 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Rom. 8:23 -- this future salvation is "the redemption of our body" that will take place in the resurrection of those who sleep in Christ (1 Cor. 15:52-56). Then the regenerated spirit will enter into the full fruition of salvation, as Akoue stated.

Romans 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

If the individual does not follow Christ is Faith, to believe he or she are delivered from the bondage of sin, then sin has the strength by the law because they have remained under the law. Death is assured in sin. We come out from under the law to establish a new law in Faith in Christ Jesus.

1 Cr 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

[Tj3]

Did I say that? No, I didn't. I said that salvation is linked with sanctification and that the whole package is a process that ends in heaven.

Then you would agree that salvation occurs when one makes a decision for Christ, and that sanctification follows?

We seem to be going back and forth on this.It would be really helpful if you would be clear on what it is that you believe.

That's not what I said. No wonder you are having problems understanding "my interpretation."

Again, perhaps if you would be abundantly clear on what your interpretation is. It seems that whatever I say, you are opposed to. Why don't you tell us what it is that you actually are trying to say.

[JoeT777]

Then you would agree that salvation occurs when one makes a decision for Christ, and that sanctification follows?

We seem to be going back and forth on this.It would be really helpful if you would be clear on what it is that you believe.


Again, perhaps if you would be abundantly clear on what your interpretation is. It seems that whatever I say, you are opposed to. Why don't you tell us what it is that you actually are trying to say.

Justification along with sanctification which are obtained through baptism for our salvation.

Holiness or sanctity is the outcome of sanctification, that Divine act by which God freely justifies us.

JoeT

[Tj3]

Justification along with sanctification which are obtained through baptism for our salvation.

Where do you find that in scripture?

[Wondergirl]

Then you would agree that salvation occurs when one makes a decision for Christ, and that sanctification follows?

Salvation occurred when Jesus died on the cross. The Holy Spirit begins the work of salvation combined with sanctification even when an infant is baptized. The Bible says the Spirit makes possible our coming to the Father through Jesus. KJV Eph. 2:18 -- "For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father."

[Tj3]

Salvation occurred when Jesus died on the cross.

Actually, that is when the price was paid. Just because He died on the cross for everyone is not a guarantee that everyone will be saved. That would be a heresy of universalism.

Salvation requires that we received His free gift of atonement for our sins that results from the sacrifice on the cross. Until we do, we are not saved.

The Holy Spirit begins the work of salvation combined with sanctification even when an infant is baptized.

Where do you find that in scripture?

[Wondergirl]

Where do you find that in scripture?

1 Cor. 6:11 -- KJV "but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

[Tj3]

1 Cor. 6:11 -- KJV "but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

Where do you find baptism of infants starting a process of salvation in this verse?

[Wondergirl]

Where do you find baptism of infants starting a process of salvation in this verse?

I thought you were after "The Holy Spirit begins the work of salvation combined with sanctification."

We've been down the infant-baptizing road several times already. You and I disagree on that, and there seems to be no resolution possible.

[Tj3]

I thought you were after "The Holy Spirit begins the work of salvation combined with sanctification."

That verse does not say that they are intertwined. It only says that God washes, santcifies and justifies us. All of which I agree with.

If you actually read my post where I asked this, it was in response to your post which read

"The Holy Spirit begins the work of salvation combined with sanctification even when an infant is baptized. "

Where do you find this in scripture?

We've been down the infant-baptizing road several times already. You and I disagree on that, and there seems to be no resolution possible.

Not if we don't take our doctrine straight from God's word.

[arcura]

Wondergirl,
You ARE RIGHT AGAIN.
Fred

[JoeT777]

Where do you find that in scripture?

I've got both Scripture and Tradition to rely on. It must be lonely when you only have yourself to rely on.

JoeT

[arcura]

Joe,
Very good point.
Fred

[Tj3]

I've got both Scripture and Tradition to rely on. It must be lonely when you only have yourself to rely on.

Would be hard for you to defend your views if you could not post abuse about those who disagree?

I am quite happy relying solely upon God's Holy word. I don't think that the denominational traditions of man can in any way improve upon the word of God.

[arcura]

Poor little Tj3 is crying abuse again.
Why are you so thin skinned?
You're the only one here that claims that.
Just curious.
Peace and kindness to you anyway.
Fred

[Tj3]

Poor little Tj3 is crying abuse again.
Why are you so thin skinned?
Your the only one here that claims that.

I am a bit disappointed that you think abuse is acceptable. In my worldview, acceptance of abuse against anyone seems contradictory to a profession of faith in Christ. That is why I take a stand when others are abused, whether I agree with them or not.

But you are welcome to believe as you wish.

[arcura]

Tj3,
I do not think that abuse is acceptable.
But in your case I find in curious that when someone tells a truth you don't like you call it abuse and it appears here that you are the only one who does that.
You have been crying abuse to you on several boards for several years; so often that it stands out like a sore thumb.
Perhaps we should get back to the topic and not worry about imagined abuse.
Fred