[Tj3]

I'll only give you an appropriate Tomism: "Avoid the issue if you cannot deal with the facts seems to be the name of the game."

Are you going to get back into personal attacks against me again, and try to hijack the thread, or are you on here to discuss the topic?

[Tj3]

Let's try to get back on topic once again:


Let's see if we can get back on topic...

I don't see how I'm basing anything on any assumed silence. Perhaps you could explain what you have in mind.

If you believe that scripture says that we are not saved until we are fully snctified, then show us the specific references from the Bible.

In any case, your remarks here demonstrate once again that you are firmly in the grip of the view that regards salvation--and sanctification, and your recent remarks demonstrate--as an event rather than as a process.

Actually that is not true. As I have stated before, you do an extremely poor job of trying to tell me what I must believe. Stick to defending your position, and I will look after mine - deal?

Sanctification is a process - I have never said otherwise. Now rather than trying to bring forward strawmen, how about scriptural support for your position?

Well, as I've said before, I don't know what you mean by "indwelling" and that has a lot to do with the fact that I don't think that you know what you mean by it. As you deploy it on these boards it appears to me to be little more than a facon de parler. Other than quoting a couple of NKJV verses that include the word "dwell", I've never seen you actually explain what you take it to mean.

I take it at face value, Akoue. The Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer. I do not understand what you problem in understanding this is. Do you not understand the word indwell? Please clarify. Maybe a good book on the ministry of the Holy Spirit might be helpful to you.

There is nothing in Acts 10 that is in tension with the idea that baptism in water is baptism by the Holy Spirit, that they are not two events but are in fact one and the same event.

Other than the fact that the baptism of the Holy Spirit occurs at an entirely different time, and before water baptism.

[Wondergirl]

Are you going to get back into personal attacks against me again, and try to hijack the thread, or are you on here to discuss the topic?

The quote is from you to me. You're attacking yourself.

I agree completely with Akoue and cannot understand what there is to wonder about.

[Tj3]

The quote is from you to me. You're attacking yourself.

I agree completely with Akoue and cannot understand what there is to wonder about.

No, WG, you are quoting things out of context. If I wanted to drag myself to that level, I could start quoting you, but I see no value in that approach. I'd rather study what God's word has to say.

Now, are you going on topic, or do you plan further derogatory personal comments?

[Tj3]

Let's try to get back on topic once again:

I don't see how I'm basing anything on any assumed silence. Perhaps you could explain what you have in mind.

If you believe that scripture says that we are not saved until we are fully snctified, then show us the specific references from the Bible.

In any case, your remarks here demonstrate once again that you are firmly in the grip of the view that regards salvation--and sanctification, and your recent remarks demonstrate--as an event rather than as a process.

Actually that is not true. As I have stated before, you do an extremely poor job of trying to tell me what I must believe. Stick to defending your position, and I will look after mine - deal?

Sanctification is a process - I have never said otherwise. Now rather than trying to bring forward strawmen, how about scriptural support for your position?

Well, as I've said before, I don't know what you mean by "indwelling" and that has a lot to do with the fact that I don't think that you know what you mean by it. As you deploy it on these boards it appears to me to be little more than a facon de parler. Other than quoting a couple of NKJV verses that include the word "dwell", I've never seen you actually explain what you take it to mean.

I take it at face value, Akoue. The Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer. I do not understand what you problem in understanding this is. Do you not understand the word indwell? Please clarify. Maybe a good book on the ministry of the Holy Spirit might be helpful to you.

There is nothing in Acts 10 that is in tension with the idea that baptism in water is baptism by the Holy Spirit, that they are not two events but are in fact one and the same event.

Other than the fact that the baptism of the Holy Spirit occurs at an entirely different time, and before water baptism.

[Wondergirl]

If you believe that scripture says that we are not saved until we are fully snctified, then show us the specific references from the Bible.

Akoue didn't say that. He said this:

"In any case, your remarks here demonstrate once again that you are firmly in the grip of the view that regards salvation--and sanctification, and your recent remarks demonstrate--as an event rather than as a process. What you say here takes it for granted that someone was saved, that his or her salvation was complete and perfected, at a particular time (say, 3:14pm on November 11, 1974) and that that person was sanctified at a particular moment after that (say 7:18am on June 9, 1982). But, as my earlier post explained, there are reasons not to regard salvation--nor of sanctification--as a punctuated event but as a process that continues throughout one's life and, indeed, into the hereafter. I would argue that we are not passive spectators but active participants in this process adding--yes, 'adding'--our efforts to the transformative work work undertaken in us by God's unmerited grace.

The process of sanctification begins when the process of salvation begins; they are coterminous--in fact, they are one and the same process. One's salvation is not complete until one is perfected by participation in the Divine nature in eternity. That this is not a single event but rather a process is further reflected by the fact that the NT speaks of one's salvation in past, present, and future tenses. (Were it an event, it would make no sense for Scripture to speak of it in the present and future tenses--I am being saved, language that strongly suggests a process that is underway, and I will be saved.) I would be interested to see a passage from Scripture which states that the process of sanctification begins sometime after the process of salvation begins. If you know of one, please post it. I would have thought that one cannot be sanctified without being saved and that one cannot be saved without being sanctified."

you do an extremely poor job of trying to tell me what I must believe.

We can only read what you write and guess from that what you believe.

[Wondergirl]

I could start quoting you

That might be the perfect solution! Please begin with my explanation on another thread on which I carefully and thoroughly explained how the Roman Catholic Church developed from the early mission churches.

[Tj3]

Akoue didn't say that.

I quoted what he said, which includes:

"The process of sanctification begins when the process of salvation begins; they are coterminous--in fact, they are one and the same process."

This is not found in scripture. I asked him to validate it from scripture.

I am saved now. Whether you and Akoue are or not is between you and God.

[Tj3]

That might be the perfect solution!

I don't lower myself to the level of taking someone else comments a=out of context and then try to use them against the person.

Please begin with my explanation on another thread on which I carefully and thoroughly explained how the Roman Catholic Church developed from the early mission churches.

If you wish to start another thread on when that denomination began, then please don't hijack this thread - start another.

[Wondergirl]

Akoue didn't say that.

I quoted what he said, which includes:

"The process of sanctification begins when the process of salvation begins; they are coterminous--in fact, they are one and the same process."

This is not found in scripture. I am saved now.

We grow in grace. It is a process, like Akoue said.

[Tj3]

We grow in grace. It is a process, like Akoue said.

I agree that we grow in grace. If he said that and stopped there, we would be in agreement.

[Wondergirl]

I agree that we grow in grace. If he said that and stopped there, we would be in agreement.

So what parts didn't you like?

[Tj3]

So what parts didn't you like?

I already responded. He mistakes sanctification in part for salvation.

[Wondergirl]

I already responded. He mistakes sanctification in part for salvation.

No, he doesn't. Please reread.

[Tj3]

No, he doesn't. Please reread.

I did. Let me quote an excerpt for your benefit once again:

"...they are one and the same process."

Instead of arguing with "no he didn't, yes he did" approach, why don't you present your defense of your position from scripture and let's discuss.

[Wondergirl]

I did. Let me quote an excerpt for your benefit once again:

"...they are one and the same process."

Instead of arguing with "no he didn't, yes he did" approach, why don't you present your defense of your position from scripture and let's discuss.

Jesus' death on the cross was the event. Our salvation and santification, i.e. the two being the "growing in grace," are intricately intertwined. They are processes, not one-time events. As Akoue said, "One's salvation is not complete until one is perfected by participation in the Divine nature in eternity."

Christians have been saved, through Jesus' sacrifice, from the penalty of sin.

Cristians are being saved from the power of sin.

"The word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are being saved [Greek participle in present tense], it is the power of God" (1 Cor. 1:18).

Phil. 2:12 says: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." The Philippian converts were to make effective for themselves the new life that the Holy Spirit had put into their hearts. Again, Christians are being saved through the work of the Spirit, a progressive salvation/sanctification. It has to do not with soul, nor with body, but with life, with growing in grace.

Christians shall be saved from the presence of sin.

Rom. 8:23 -- this future salvation is "the redemption of our body" that will take place in the resurrection of those who sleep in Christ (1 Cor. 15:52-56). Then the regenerated spirit will enter into the full fruition of salvation, as Akoue stated.

Thus, there are different phases of salvation. One cannot remove one or nullify any of the others.

Paul, in Phil 1:6 and 2:13, tells us how God begins the work of salvation and carries it on to its conclusion in heaven. All along the way, God works in us "both to will and to do His good pleasure," with grace through faith.

[homesell]

Oops

[Tj3]

Jesus' death on the cross was the event. Our salvation and santification, i.e., the two being the "growing in grace," are intricately intertwined. They are processes, not one-time events. As Akoue said, "One's salvation is not complete until one is perfected by participation in the Divine nature in eternity."

Yet, we find throughout scripture that we are saved when we receive Christ as Saviour.

Titus 3:4-8
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
NKJV

I could provide many other references, but clearly salvation is referred to as a past event. Sanctification clearly is an on-going process starting when we are saved.

[Wondergirl]

I could provide many other references, but clearly salvation is referred to as a past event. Sanctification clearly is an on-going process starting when we are saved.

You mean I typed my heart out and looked up Bible passages all for naught?

Phil. 1:6 -- "being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."

I set forth my arguments cogently and with proper, even fantastic, Bible support. Did you even read what I wrote? If not, please do. Or are you just going to continue to sit there like a stubborn two-year-old (yeah, yeah, I know what you are going to say, so then don't act like one!) who refuses to enter into any kind of discussion because it's his way or no way?

[Wondergirl]

Please explain to me what this means then, if not what I said it does --

Phil. 1:6 -- "being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."