[JoeT777]

Fred,

You cannot say "neither one". Scripture says that there is only one. And you often say that you will believe what scripture says.

Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
NKJV

Scripture says that there is but one essential baptism amongst Christians. So my question, Fred, is this:

Do you consider water baptism essential and the Holy Spirit optional?

Or is the Holy Spirit essential and water baptism optional?

Now which one is it? Which baptism is it that is the "one baptism" that God tells us in Ephesians is necessary?

One body and one Spirit: as you are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.

But to every one of us is given grace, according to the measure of the giving of Christ. Wherefore he saith: Ascending on high, he led captivity captive: he gave gifts to men. Now that he ascended, what is it, but because he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended above all the heavens: that he might fill all things. And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors For the perfecting of the saints, for the word of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Until we all meet into the unity of faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ: (Eph 4:4:13)

I might be wrong about this, but I think Jim Jones held this very interpretation of Eph 4 i.e. that only one person, presumably Christ, need be baptized. Not “once one is saved he is always saved” but rather “Each is saved unto his own justice, his own law.” Whereas the believer needn't do anything – not believe, not think, not do, not work, nor live. AnyONE can see that scripture doesn't support this far-flung theory.

What Paul does make clear are the bonds that tie us together into one faith – get that “one faith”, not Tom's rendition of faith, not Julie's or Fred's. – ONE faith in Christ. "And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me. 21 That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee" John. These verses speak to an uncommon love that produces glorious fruits. You have ONE spirit which drinks from ONE fountain. God has called you to immortal glory, into a brotherhood of ONE Hope just as there is ONE Lord. There is a calling to ONE baptism, ONE remission of the original sin. “Who is over all, that is, the Lord and above all; and through all, that is, providing for, ordering all; and in you all, that is, who dwells in you all. Now this they own to be an attribute of the Son; so that were it an argument of inferiority, it never would have been said of the Father.” St. Chrysostom, Homily 11

JoeT

[Tj3]

What Paul does make clear are the bonds that tie us together into one faith – get that “one faith”, not Tom's rendition of faith, not Julie's or Fred's.

Nor yours, nor the pope's nor your denomination's. We must take what scripture says at face value.

Agreed. I have said this many times myself.

– ONE faith in Christ. "And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me. 21 That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee[/I]" John. These verses speak to an uncommon love that produces glorious fruits. You have ONE spirit which drinks from ONE fountain. God has called you to immortal glory, into a brotherhood of ONE Hope just as there is ONE Lord. There is a calling to ONE baptism, ONE remission of the original sin. “Who is over all, that is, the Lord and above all; and through all, that is, providing for, ordering all; and in you all, that is, who dwells in you all. Now this they own to be an attribute of the Son; so that were it an argument of inferiority, it never would have been said of the Father.” St. Chrysostom, Homily 11

And not John Chrysostom either.

Just the plain clear word of God.

I notice that you did not answer the question about which baptism is the essential one.

Or maybe your avoidance does answer it.

[JoeT777]

Nor yours, nor the pope's nor your denomination's. We must take what scripture says at face value.

Agreed. I have said this many times myself.



And not John Chrysostom either.

Just the plain clear word of God.

I notice that you did not answer the question about which baptism is the essential one.

Or maybe your avoidance does answer it.

How many different baptisms do you have? Are you baptized each week? ONE baptism. Baptism is essential only in the sense that it is 'necessary' for salvation.

JoeT

[Tj3]

How many different baptisms do you have? Are you baptized each week? ONE baptism. Baptism is essential only in the sense that it is 'necessary' for salvation.

JoeT

So which one is that - the baptism of the Holy Spirit or water baptism?

[JoeT777]

so which one is that - the baptism of the holy spirit or water baptism?

?

How many baptisms do you have Tom? I don't understand your quesiton.

[Tj3]

? ? ? ?

How many baptisms do you have Tom? I don't understand your quesiton.

You don't know what the baptism or the Holy Spirit is?

Or You don't know what water baptism is?

Please let me know which you need explained.

[JoeT777]

You don't know what the baptism or the Holy Spirit is?

Or You don't know what water baptism is?

Please let me know which you need explained.

You tell me.

[Tj3]

You tell me.

You don't know what either means?

[arcura]

Jrff,
It looks like we will continue to disagree on this.
I firmly believe that baptism is necessary for salvation and that it washes away original sin.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

jrff,
It looks like we will continue to disagree on this.
I firmly believe that baptism is necessary for salvation and that it washes away original sin.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

As always you can believe as you wish, but scripture nowhere says water washes away sins. It only says that Jesu blood washes away sins:

Rev 1:5-7
To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
NKJV

[arcura]

Thanks Tom,'
I will believe as I want to.
Of course you can do the same.
Fred

[sndbay]

Fred,

As always you can believe as you wish, but scripture nowhere says water washes away sins. It only says that Jesu blood washes away sins:

Rev 1:5-7
To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
NKJV

Revelation 1:5-6
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1 C 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

it appears that baptism is offered again and again throughout scripture, yet it remains as a needle in a hay stack for you to see... Try looking at all Christ is to us. Do you only count the blood and not the body?

You keep insisting on options.. Water or HOLY SPIRIT.... Christ example HIS own Baptism as water and the HOLY SPIRIT.

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Do you question HIS example and think that John baptized of water, and Christ baptizes with the HOLY Spirit and not water also?

[homesell]

Fred,
Matthew 3:13 John the Baptist says that he himself needed to be baptized. Why? The spirit of God was in John ever since he was in the womb. Jesus replies that he (Jesus)is being baptized not because it is required, but because it is proper.
John 1:33... the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'the man on whom you see the spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with (NOT WATER)the HOLY SPIRIT.
Fred my friend, the baptism of the spirit (invisible)is what is required for salvation. The baptism by water(visible) is "proper" to show that one has already been Baptized by the Spirit.

[sndbay]

Fred,
Matthew 3:13 John the Baptist says that he himself needed to be baptized. Why, the spirit of God was in John since he was in the womb? Jesus replies that he (Jesus)is being baptized not because it is required, but because it is proper.
John 1:33 ...the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'the man on whom you see the spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with (NOT WATER)the HOLY SPIRIT.
Fred my friend, the baptism of the spirit (invisible)is what is required for salvation. The baptism by water(visible) is "proper" to show that one has already been Baptized by the Spirit.

homesell

Scripture tells us that baptism was fulfilled by both water and spirit. John's water baptism was not in any way taken less then meaningful because it was both Christ and John that fulfilled the act of all righteousness.

(Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. )

And Christ came by water and blood..

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

5:7-8 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

[Tj3]

It appears that baptism is offered again and again throughout scripture, yet it remains as a needle in a hay stack for you to see... Try looking at all Christ is to us. Do you only count the blood and not the body?

Are you saying that I should add to what scripture says regarding what is essential for salvation? Are you saying that Christ's blood on the cross (which, BTW is part of His body) being shed was not sufficient and not completely effective for the atonement of our sins?

You keep insisting on options.. Water or HOLY SPIRIT... Christ example HIS own Baptism as water and the HOLY SPIRIT.

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Good example - did Jesus do these for His salvation, or as a symbolic act of the mikveh (purification ritual)?

If it was for His salvation then none of us have any hope. If He did it as an act of obedience, so that he would remain sinless, then it is not essential for our salvation. None of us are sinless to begin with.

I look forward to your answer.

Don't forget what John was doing - it was a ceremony (mikveh) that scripture says in Hebrews 9 is symbolic!

Do you question HIS example and think that John baptized of water, and Christ baptizes with the HOLY Spirit and not water also?

Your question is interesting. Let me answer each point:

1) Do you question HIS example ?

No, I do not question His example. I think that it is important or every person once they have been baptized in the Holy Spirit at salvation (just as those saved in Acts 10:47 did) to partake in water baptism as a symbolic act of what has happened to then and identify with Christ's death and resurrection on the cross as we are told baptism is in Romans 6.

2) Do you think that John baptized of water, and Christ baptizes with the HOLY Spirit and not water also?

First, why don't you show us any examples you can find where Jesus baptized in water?

Second, that question was answered by John:

Matt 3:10-12
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
NKJV

Mark 1:8
8 I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."
NKJV

Luke 3:16-17
16 John answered, saying to all, "I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
NKJV

John 1:32-34
32 And John bore witness, saying, "I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. 33 I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.'
NKJV

So which do you think is essential? The mikveh of John described in scripture as symbolic? Or the baptism of the Holy Spirit which Jesus' baptizes with?

[sndbay]

Are you saying that I should add to what scripture says regarding what is essential for salvation?

What is essential to salvation? My answer would be One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism because it is the truth of what God's word tells us.
The Law of Faith..

Are you saying that Christ's blood on the cross (which, BTW is part of His body) being shed was not sufficent and not completely effective for the atonement of our sins?

No I have not said that.. What I have said, is that what is written, (Revelation 1:5-6)And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Good example - did Jesus do these for His salvation, or as a symbolic act of the mikveh (purification ritual)?

Scripture says Christ with John both, as us fulfilled righteousness

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him

If it was for His salvation then none of us have any hope. If He did it as an act of obedience, so that he would remain sinless, then it is not essential for our salvation. None of us are sinless to begin with.

I look forward to your answer.

Scripture say Christ, when He was baptized, withness by John to have had the HOLY SPIRT come upon HIM

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Scripture also say Christ was both born of water and blood.

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

Don't forget what John was doing - it was a ceremony (mikveh) that scripture says in Hebrews 9 is symbolic!

Both fulfilled rightoeusness.
(Matthew 3:15)

So which do you think is essential? the mikveh of John described in scripture as symbolic? Or the baptism of the Holy Spirit which Jesus' baptizes with?

It is obvious... Both as it is written.

The same as Christ Himself was born of water and blood...

Christ became that blood for us if we walk in HIS image of rightoeunsness, and baptized in HIM (reborn to newness of Life)


One must be baptized unto death, and buried in Christ for that newness of Life. Able to raise as He was raised. Not to forget the fire of HIS hand.

Baptism of Faith ..Belief in Christ
I trust the change of baptism was as Paul spoke Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. (Acts 19:4)

[zhazha]

Actually, if you are a Catholic like me, you really need to be baptized in order to be called "Christian." That's just one of the Seven Holy Sacraments.



What happens when we are baptized?

Contemporary Catholics spend a great deal of time preparing for their own or their child's Baptism. There are new clothes to buy, and classes to take, and godparents to select, all leading up to that moment at Mass when the waters of Baptism touch the new initiate. But Baptism-and all sacraments, for that matter-are much more than the moment of celebration.

The ritual of Baptism does not bring God's love into being as if that love did not exist before the ceremony. Baptism is the Church's way of celebrating and enacting the embrace of God who first loved us from the moment of our conception. Baptism celebrates a family's and a community's experience of that love in the baptized.

There are other life experiences-birth, death, washing, growing and so forth-that are celebrated in Baptism. The water represents life, death, cleansing and growth, and it recalls the flood waters of Noah's day and the saving waters of the Red Sea parted by Moses. The candle symbolizes our status as an "easter people" and signifies the way that the Church "passes the torch" of Christian commitment to those being baptized. The white garment represents the Church's belief that Baptism sets us free from Original Sin.

Baptism happens not only to the individual, but also to Christ's body, the Church. That's why the rite insists that we celebrate Baptism in the Christian assembly, with the community present and actively participating. It is the community, after all, who is welcoming the new members, journeying with them, providing models for them, supporting and nourishing them. Baptism begins with God's love and care revealed to us through Christ. It continues with us, the Church, living and enacting God's love and care through Christ to the world. That's a serious commitment.
American Catholic | Update Your Faith

You may also refer to (for more info about Holy Sacraments): The Seven Catholic Sacraments - Baptism, Confirmation, Communion, Confession, Holy Orders, Marriage, Last Rites

Hope this helps...

zhazha
:)

[JoeT777]

Fred,
Matthew 3:13 John the Baptist says that he himself needed to be baptized. Why? The spirit of God was in John ever since he was in the womb. Jesus replies that he (Jesus)is being baptized not because it is required, but because it is proper.

It doesn't say 'proper' or even intimate 'proper'. But what we see in Mark 10:38 and Luke 12:50 is that Jesus refers to baptism as His death. “Can you drink of the chalice that I drink of or be baptized with the baptism wherewith I am baptized?” (Mark 10:38) Matthew's message goes far beyond ritual or rite.

“But John stayed him, saying: I ought to be baptized by thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering, said to him: Suffer it to be so now. For so it becometh us to fulfil all justice.”


Baptism is in itself a confession, shedding an old failed life to take on a new one. The key to understanding your question 'why does Christ need to be baptized' is found in Christ's response, “to fulfil all justice”. In the Jewish culture Justice or righteousness is acceptance of the whole of God's will, the bearing of the “yoke of God's kingdom”. In descending into the waters of the Jordan Christ descends into the underworld taking on the sins of mankind, pleads for forgiveness to take on a new beginning. It is fitting that it is here that John starts his Gospel, in the beginning of the New Covenant. In so confessing God expresses a unity, a 'oneness' with those of mankind who have incurred guilt but yearn for righteousness. Descending into the water Christ is immersed himself in the sinfulness of man, hoisting to his shoulder the yoke of sin in all righteousness. “I have a baptism wherewith I am to be baptized. And how am I straitened until it be accomplished?” (Luke 12:50)


Only understanding Christ's baptism in this manner can we come to understand the whole of the Christ's crucifixion; all righteousness comes to light on the Cross. Christ's baptism is taking on death for the sins of humanity, “This is my beloved Son”, the voice of God announces.

John 1:33 ...the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'the man on whom you see the spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with (NOT WATER)the HOLY SPIRIT.

To the Apostles this couldn't or wouldn't be true in their baptism, because the efficacy of the sacrament is derived from Christ's Passion on the Cross. But, even still baptism is not simply receiving the Holy Spirit. It however confers the grace of the Holy Spirit so as to engage in the performance of good works without which faith is dead (James 2:26).

Another effect of baptism is the infusion of sanctifying grace and supernatural gifts and virtues. It is this sanctifying grace which renders men the adopted sons of God and confers the right to heavenly glory.

Fred my friend, the baptism of the spirit (invisible)is what is required for salvation. The baptism by water(visible) is "proper" to show that one has already been Baptized by the Spirit.

Baptism is the shedding of sin and taking on a new life in Christ.

[Tj3]

What is essential to salvation? My answer would be One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism because it is the truth of what God's word tells us.

We agree. But that comes back to my question. Which baptism - of the Holy Spirit or of water?

Are you saying that in Acts 10:47 that those men who had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit were unsaved until they had been water baptized?

No I have not said that.. What I have said, is that what is written, (Revelation 1:5-6)And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

No mention of water washing our sins. Only the blood. As you will find throughout scripture. That was my point.

Scripture says Christ with John both, as us fulfilled righteousness

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him

Right. So was Jesus doing so to be obedient to the father?
Or did He do it to wash His sins?

Scripture say Christ, when He was baptized, withness by John to have had the HOLY SPIRT come upon HIM

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Right - so?

Scripture also say Christ was both born of water and blood.

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

Exactly.

1 John 5:6
6 This is He who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.
NKJV

There are some who deny that Jesus came in the flesh, but this confirms that Jesus was not just born (water) but also was a man with flesh and blood. And this was necessary because without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins (Heb 9:22). So this makes the point that Jesus was not just born of a woman (water), but denies the gnostics contention that he came only as spirit.

It is obvious... Both as it is written.

The same as Christ Himself was born of water and blood...

Right - born of water and blood.

Christ became that blood for us if we walk in HIS image of rightoeunsness, and baptized in HIM (reborn to newness of Life)

Christ became blood for us? Where do you find that in scripture? Are you thinking of this verse?

2 Cor 5:21
21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
NKJV

If so, it is much different and I see no connection here in context to baptism.

One must be baptized unto death, and buried in Christ for that newness of Life. Able to raise as He was raised. Not to forget the fire of HIS hand.

This is your contention, but not what scripture says. You may be thing of Romans 6. Let's look at it:

Rom 6:4-10
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.
NKJV

Note the word "likeness". That refers to a comparison or symbolism. the word means exactly the same in Greek. So this is not saying that we literally die and become resurrected but rather that we identify with the death and resurrection of Christ and by so doing have symbolized what has happened to us when we were saved.

Keep in mind that contrary to common understanding, the baptism can mean a physical washing or it can simply refer to an identification with - look it up in the dictionary.

Baptism of Faith ..Belief in Christ
I trust the change of baptism was as Paul spoke Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. (Acts 19:4)

This is a quote often taken out of context. Note that this refers to people who repented and believed during John the baptists ministry, which was before the ministry of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We are therefore seeing a transition between the OT ministry and the NT ministry. There is no one today who was brought to belief under John's ministry, so there are no longer believers in Christ who do not have the Holy Spirit.

I notice that you have not commented on Acts 10:47 where we have an specific example of people who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before water baptism.

Acts 10:44-48
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
NKJV

[Tj3]

[B]Actually, if you are a Catholic like me, you really need to be baptized in order to be called "Christian." That's just one of the Seven Holy Sacraments.

We are discussing the scriptural doctrine of baptism, not the denomination membership requirements, which may vary for a number of different denominations.