[JoeT777]

In verses 1 through 8 we see the parable telling of the Jewish sacrificial offering in the sanctuary. The High Priest and only the High Priest can position the Loaves of Proposition (you might want to look it up.) In any event the, (I'm paraphrasing) this is the parable of that day: accordingly gifts and sacrifices offered cannot make the High Priest perfect. Sacrifices of the Old Covenant cannot make the High Priest pure, it doesn't matter how many times he washes. But, we know a pure High Priest, don't we?

We are to understand that “ Christ, being come an high Priest of the good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hand, that is, not of this creation” But, the antitype of this parable is in verse 24, “For Jesus is not entered into the Holies made with hands, the patterns of the true: but into Heaven itself, that he may appear now in the presence of God for us.” Christ doesn't even enter into the Tabernacle and he is pure enough to stand in the presence of God.

I've never seen these verses rendered as you did. Can you explain yourself?

JoeT

[Tj3]

In verses 1 through 8 we see the parable telling of the Jewish sacrificial offering in the sanctuary.

First of all, it is speaking of the historic Jewish ritual, not a parable. There is a great deal written about this and you could even go into the OT to read about it.

The High Priest and only the High Priest can position the Loaves of Proposition (you might want to look it up.) In any event the, (I’m paraphrasing) this is the parable of that day: accordingly gifts and sacrifices offered cannot make the High Priest perfect. Sacrifices of the Old Covenant cannot make the High Priest pure, it doesn’t matter how many times he washes. But, we know a pure High Priest, don’t we?

Did you notice that the mikveh (which by the way was NOT just for the high priest) was symbolic of the coming of Christ?

Do you realize that John did not create baptism but rather what he was doing was the mikveh which was symbolic of the coming sacrifice on the cross? Are you aware that baptism today came from what John was doing, with the difference being that now we perform the baptism, not looking forward to the coming sarifice, but looking back to the sacrifice?

I've never seen these verses rendered as you did. Can you explain yourself?

Perhaps not if your exposure has been to the teachings of your denomination. Scripture is quite clear when read in context. You might also want to do some reading on the Jewish mikveh.

[arcura]

sndbay,
Thanks much.
Here is that verse an I see nowhere in it that Jesus says that water is flesh.
To claim that He does say that is a purposeful twist of scripture to mean something that it does not say.
John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

sndbay,
Thanks much.
Here is that verse an I see nowhere in it that Jesus says that water is flesh.
To claim that He does say that is a purposeful twist of scripture to mean something that it does not say.
John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

Here it is again:

Fred,

Perhaps you missed my earlier post. Here it is again.

Let’s look at it in the context of scripture:

John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV

Jesus speaks of two things:

1) Being born of water.
2) being born of Spirit

Then he speaks of two things again:

1) Being born of the flesh
2) Bring born of the spirit.

The Jews used a literary form called parallelism frequently. In this case you are essentially equating things by parallel comparison, placed in their respective order. In this case, we see being born of water equated to being born of the flesh. We are all born of the flesh, but not all are born of the spirit (born again), and yet He says that both are essential.

[Tj3]

Fred,

Answer me this:

Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
NKJV

Scripture says that there is but one essential baptism amongst Christians. So my question, Fred, is this:

Do you consider water baptism essential and the Holy Spirit optional?

Or is the Holy Spirit essential and water baptism optional?

[arcura]

Tj3,
My answer is "Neither one"!
As Jesus clearly says, it takes both spirit and water.
Fred

[homesell]

Summing up.
One camp says that one must be baptized to BECOME saved.
The other camp says there is no point to being Baptized unless you ALREADY are saved.

If baptism is necessary before salvation, this implies that the finished work of Jesus is not complete and "God needs some helping out" because He is going to withhold his mercy, grace, and love until we "perform."

If Baptism is not necessary for salvation, this implies that people can receive God's love, grace and mercy without "perfoming" as did the thief on the cross, and Zaccheaus, and the household of Cornelius, and David, and Moses, and Abraham, and John the Baptist, and so on.

[sndbay]

If baptism is necessary before salvation, this implies that the finished work of Jesus is not complete and "God needs some helping out" because He is going to withold his mercy, grace, and love until we "perform."

Disagree, for we acknowledge Christ did fulfil all that was the Will of HIS Father. Christ saved us, and set us free from the curse of sin. We walk in righteousness because He was righteous. Once you leave the school master of the law, we walk with Christ. Faith and works are completed in our fulfillment to answer HIS calling. The gospel is profitable unto godliness. We are a temple in which Christ can dwells, being holy as He is HOLY.

Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

There is one body and one spirit (joined) in one hope of our calling (salvation)

Eph 4:4-5 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism,One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

If Baptism is not necessary for salvation, this implies that people can recieve God's love, grace and mercy without "perfoming" as did the thief on the cross, and Zaccheaus, and the household of Cornelius, and David, and Moses, and Abraham, and John the Baptist, and so on.

All were under the law, as filthy rags in need of righteousness.
If we have not accepted Christ, and HIS righteousness as the way, then we walk as they walked.. under the school master of the law until Christ within the heart is found to be worthy, and each choose to follow. Then and only then.. leaving the school master of the law to walk in grace.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

[homesell]

I guess I just have trouble making myself clear. 3 times in this past week alone, (like the response above by sndbay) people have said they disagree with me and then say exactly what I thought I said or if I didn't take time to spell everything out, they simply elaborate on what I did say and I'm in agreement twith them. What's up with that?

[sndbay]

I guess I just have trouble making myself clear. 3 times in this past week alone, (like the response above by sndbay) people have said they disagree with me and then say exactly what I thought I said or if I didn't take time to spell everything out, they simply elaborate on what I did say and I'm in agreement twith them. What's up with that?

It is the same thing eveytime.. Baptism is following Christ and HIS way.. Is that necessary? YES "if" you believe in HIM and walk in the Spirit

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, " if " so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now " if "any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

And " if " Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

[JoeT777]

Scripture is quite clear when read in context. You might also want to do some reading on the Jewish mikveh.

Reading in context is absolutely necessary; and when you read the bible literally, as you do, then washing in one place means washing in another. In John 3:5 “Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” We hold that this washing is Baptism.

"Holy Baptism holds the first place among the sacraments, because it is the door of the spiritual life; for by it we are made members of Christ and incorporated with the Church. And since through the first man death entered into all, unless we be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, we can not enter into the kingdom of Heaven, as Truth Himself has told us… The effect of this sacrament is the remission of all sin, original and actual; likewise of all punishment which is due for sin. As a consequence, no satisfaction for past sins is enjoined upon those who are baptized; and if they die before they commit any sin, they attain immediately to the kingdom of heaven and the vision of God." (Council of Florence)

Bapto, or baptize is used in Acts 1:5, “but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost,” or as used in Luke 12:50 “And I have a baptism wherewith I am to be baptized. And how am I straitened until it be accomplished” . And of Hebrews 6:2 “Of the doctrine of baptisms and imposition of hands, and of the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.” The doctrine spoken of is not doctrine its just a nice thing to do when your back itches?

Baptism is a necessity for salvation.

JoeT


JoeT

[Tj3]

Reading in context is absolutely necessary; and when you read the bible literally, as you do, then washing in one place means washing in another.

Joe, don't try telling me what I do or don't do. In the past you have proven to be very poor at trying to take on that role. You'd do better to to try to defend your position - and I would suggest that you have your hands full on that alone.

In John 3:5 “Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” We hold that this washing is Baptism.

I understand your denominational position. But then Jesus went on to explain that He was referring to the flesh by referring to water.

Baptism is a necessity for salvation.

Why don't you answer the questionm that Fred does not want to seem to answer:

Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
NKJV

Scripture says that there is but one essential baptism amongst Christians. So my question, Fred, is this:

Do you consider water baptism essential and the Holy Spirit optional?

Or is the Holy Spirit essential and water baptism optional?

[Tj3]

Tj3,
My answer is "Neither one"!
As Jesus clearly says, it takes both spirit and water.
Fred

Fred,

You cannot say "neither one". Scripture says that there is only one. And you often say that you will believe what scripture says.

Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
NKJV

Scripture says that there is but one essential baptism amongst Christians. So my question, Fred, is this:

Do you consider water baptism essential and the Holy Spirit optional?

Or is the Holy Spirit essential and water baptism optional?

Now which one is it? Which baptism is it that is the "one baptism" that God tells us in Ephesians is necessary?

[Tj3]

It is the same thing eveytime.. Baptism is following Christ and HIS way.. Is that necessary? YES "if" you believe in HIM and walk in the Spirit

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, " if " so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now " if "any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

And " if " Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

If you are saying that it is necessary to do everything that Jesus commanded to be saved, then we are without hope. Scripture says that we ALL failed at that (Rom 3:23). The good news is that Christ's sacrifice on the cross paid the price for all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9), so that our salvation does not depend upon our works, or our faithfulness, but on His sacrifice on the cross and His faithfulness.

[Tj3]

Summing up.
One camp says that one must be baptized to BECOME saved.
The other camp says there is no point to being Baptized unless you ALREADY are saved.

If baptism is necessary before salvation, this implies that the finished work of Jesus is not complete and "God needs some helping out" because He is going to withold his mercy, grace, and love until we "perform."

If Baptism is not necessary for salvation, this implies that people can recieve God's love, grace and mercy without "perfoming" as did the thief on the cross, and Zaccheaus, and the household of Cornelius, and David, and Moses, and Abraham, and John the Baptist, and so on.

Good summary. I tried to add a greenie, but I need to spread around more first.

[sndbay]

If you are saying that it is necessary to do everything that Jesus commanded to be saved, then we are without hope. Scripture says that we ALL failed at that (Rom 3:23).

Read on for the body fails but the spirit within does not fail. And we NOW live by the law of faith. Believing in HIS way of righteousness, and walking with HIM as He dwells within us.
Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The law of God is the school master, and the law brings us to Christ. You are filthy rags under the law, but in the law of faith we walk in righteousness because we walk in the spirit. That can only be obtain by the one hope of salvation which is written in (Eph 4:23)

Eph 3:23-24 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

The good news is that Christ's sacrifice on the cross paid the price for all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9), so that our salvation does not depend upon our works, or our faithfulness, but on His sacrifice on the cross and His faithfulness.

Yes, yet in faith and in the newman of the spirit is rightoeusness which is acts of love, and true holiness.. Both joined as one in the one hope of salvation through one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

If you have left the school master of the law unto Christ you are no longer as filthy rags.. Faith has delivered you HIS salvation

[JoeT777]

Who can deny the ‘neccssity of baptism when scripturally described as “the doctrine of baptisms and imposition of hands, and of the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment”? Hebrews 6:2


In antiquity the Jew would have seen John’s baptism as a descending into the underworld in its relation to Noah’s flood. The immersion was seen as purification, a laving with water. It is the sacrament that incorporates us into Christ’s mystical body. The grace both actual and sanctifying redeems though the act of contrition liberating one from actual sin and original sin. (Cf. Mk 1:4). Coming out of the mystical body of water re-birthing through the blood purchase of Christ we find ourselves thrust into the light – as a child breaches the womb bursting into the light. (Cf. 1 Peter 2:9).


This sacrament alone is the entrance to the Church of Christ making us adoptive Sons of God. The sacrament is the remission of sins, “Be baptized …in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins;... " Acts 2:38. The sacrament confers faith through the graces of Christ.


JoeT

[jenniepepsi]

All this besides the point,

And I can be argued with, reddie'd or whatever. Many will probably not believe me.


But I believe my lord to be a kind and understanding lord, and if one is a christian in christ, and does not know he/she needs baptisim, it will be forgiven.

Our god looks at our hearts and our intent. Not JUST our actions. And he knows the diffrence between a sincear "i was mistaken and did not know' to 'i knew, but I didn't think it was important'


But again, I say. Even if you do not believe baptism is nessisary, if you are a christian, what is holding you from that last step? Will it HURT you to get baptised? Even if you don't think its nessisary

[sndbay]

All this besides the point,

and i can be argued with, reddie'd or whatever. many will probably not believe me.


but i believe my lord to be a kind and understanding lord, and if one is a christian in christ, and does not know he/she needs baptisim, it will be forgiven.

our god looks at our hearts and our intent. not JUST our actions. and he knows the diffrence between a sincear "i was mistaken and did not know' to 'i knew, but i didnt think it was important'


but again, i say. even if you do not believe baptism is nessisary, if you are a christian, what is holding you from that last step? will it HURT you to get baptised? even if you dont think its nessisary

I hear what you are saying, and your final words are what tend to be saying there is a questionable heart verses a willing heart. But you are right, Christ will be the judge of each the heart.

Scripture says: my people will be destroyed by lack of knowledge.
Scripture says: establish the law of Faith
Scripture says: My sheep hear My Voice
Scripture says: man should not live by bread alone but by every word of God
Scripture says: Behold I sent my messenger which shall show the way

I believe in what I am reading in scripture

[Tj3]

but again, i say. even if you do not believe baptism is nessisary, if you are a christian, what is holding you from that last step? will it HURT you to get baptised? even if you dont think its nessisary

Agreed. Baptism is important as an act of obedience for all Christians.