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cozyk · May 14, 2009, 08:03 AM

In that, perhaps not to your question. The all knowing God has more, and is endless.[/QUOTE]

I don't understand that part.:confused:

sndbay · May 14, 2009, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by cozyk

WOW This thread is long. Do we not have a definitive answer yet?

perhaps NOT.. it's endless

arcura · May 14, 2009, 09:51 PM

homesell,
Sorry Jeff,
That verse DOES NOT clearly say that flesh is water. To claim that Jesus said that looks like a purposeful twist of scripture to mean something else.
Flesh is flesh and water is water, just like apples are apples, and fish are fish.
Flesh is born of flesh (woman) but in baptism a person is born of spirit.
There is clearly a huge difference there.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3 · May 14, 2009, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by homesell

Fred.
TJ3 DID answer your question as did I. John 3:3-9 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
8 "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?"

Nicodemus thought Jesus was referring to a rebirth in the fleshly manner(which is very watery and the semen itself is 90% water) but Jesus clears it up for Him by saying one must be born of the water and of the spirit and then states plainly that what is born of flesh IS flesh, that which is born of spirit IS spirit. We ALL have been born of water, we have NOT all been born of the spirit.

That is it exactly.

arcura · May 14, 2009, 10:31 PM

Tj3,
That is twisting scripture so say something is does NOT say.
Flesh is born of flesh (woman) to be born again is to be born of water and spirit (from above).
Flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit they are NOT the same and neither is flesh water.
Fred

Tj3 · May 14, 2009, 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
That is twisting scripture so say something is does NOT say.
Flesh is born of flesh (woman) to be born again is to be born of water and spirit (from above).
Flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit they are NOT the same and neither is flesh water.
Fred

Let's look at it in the context of scripture:

John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV

Jesus speaks of two things:

1) Being born of water.
2) being born of Spirit

Then he speaks of two things again:

1) Being born of the flesh
2) Bring born of the spirit.

The Jews used a literary form called parallelism frequently. In this case you are essentially equating things by parallel comparison, placed in their respective order. In this case, we see being born of water equated to being born of the flesh. We are all born of the flesh, but not all are born of the spirit (born again), and yet He says that both are essential.

Answer me this:

Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
NKJV

Scripture says that there is but one essential baptism amongst Christians. So my question, Fred, is this:

Do you consider water baptism essential and the Holy Spirit optional?

Or is the Holy Spirit essential and water baptism optional?

arcura · May 14, 2009, 10:58 PM

Tj3,
I looked at it and studies it and I stand my what I said.
I do NOT agree with your interpretation of it.
Fred

adam7gur · May 14, 2009, 11:52 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

homesell,
Sorry Jeff,
That verse DOES NOT clearly say that flesh is water. To claim that Jesus said that looks like a purposeful twist of scripture to mean something else.
Flesh is flesh and water is water, just like apples are apples, and fish are fish.
Flesh is born of flesh (woman) but in baptism a person is born of spirit.
There is clearly a huge difference there.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I'm with you Fred.Also we seem to forget that Jesus is , as He said to the Samaritan woman, the Water of Life!

adam7gur · May 15, 2009, 03:10 AM

Originally Posted by Tj3

Answer me this:

Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
NKJV

Scripture says that there is but one essential baptism amongst Christians. So my question, Fred, is this:

Do you consider water baptism essential and the Holy Spirit optional?

Or is the Holy Spirit essential and water baptism optional?

Tom
Could't those two be one?
I mean after all, we see in our faith one and two being a matter of faith, like the unity of the Father and the Son or the unity of man and woman.
I am just throwing another point of view here, nothing more!

homesell · May 15, 2009, 03:47 AM

Fred,
You accuse us of twisting scriptures. TJ3 and I are telling you we believe the scripture is clear what Jesus is saying.
You say Jesus is talking about water baptism when Nicodemus never asked about it or mentioned it, or maybe even knew about it. Jesus himself said he didn't come to baptize with water.
It is the baptism of the spirit(being filled with the spirit) that is the spiritual birth from above and causes us to be reborn and be saved. Not any man-made ritual.
In John 19 8-10 Jesus meets Zacchaeus and says, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham." Jesus didn't say salvation has come because this man has been baptized or will be baptized.
When people were healed and then told to report to the priest to let them see that they had been healed, they didn't go to the priest to BE healed. They went to the priest because they already WERE healed.

adam7gur · May 15, 2009, 04:19 AM

Examine the way Israelites were saved from the Egyptians through the waters of the sea.The baptism in water symbolizes also the crossing of the waters of the sea.Still the Israelites had to follow the Lord in the desert to make it to the promised land,just like we are baptized in water to declare that we no longer are under the World,but we follow our Lord to make it to the Kingdom of Heaven.
We are saved by baptism in water but that is not entering the Kingdom of Heaven, it is only being saved from the World and its master.
The thief that was crucified with Jesus,made it to Heaven although he was not baptized.The World still had authourity on him and the World judged him and his penalty was... death!

homesell · May 15, 2009, 04:52 AM

Note that it was "the red sea" or sea of blood. Just as the blood of Christ washes away our sins. Adam7gur you say yourself that "the baptism in water symbolizes." Doesn't that mean that water baptism is symbolic? You talk about "make it to the kingdom of heaven". Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but it sounds like you're saying by being baptized you are declaring that from now on you will try to follow Jesus to "make it" to the kingdom of heaven. That sounds like "works" on your part.
"It is by grace you are saved through faith and not of works lest any man should boast."
"You are not under law but under Grace"
"For no man shall be saved by the works of the Law.

sndbay · May 15, 2009, 05:38 AM

Originally Posted by homesell

Note that it was "the red sea" or sea of blood. Just as the blood of Christ washes away our sins. Adam7gur you say yourself that "the baptism in water symbolizes." Doesn't that mean that water baptism is symbolic? You talk about "make it to the kingdom of heaven". Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but it sounds like you're saying by being baptized you are declaring that from now on you will try to follow Jesus to "make it" to the kingdom of heaven. That sounds like "works" on your part.
"It is by grace you are saved through faith and not of works lest any man should boast."
"You are not under law but under Grace"
"For no man shall be saved by the works of the Law.

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

God sent HIS SON

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

If we do not walk in righteousness we walk in sin of the flesh as filthy rags

Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, "if "so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now "if" any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Tj3 · May 15, 2009, 06:41 AM

Originally Posted by adam7gur

Tom
Could't those two be one?
I mean after all, we see in our faith one and two being a matter of faith, like the unity of the Father and the Son or the unity of man and woman.
I am just throwing another point of view here, nothing more!

No, they could not. The Holy Spirit is not water. One can be symbolic of the other, but they are not the same.

Tj3 · May 15, 2009, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by adam7gur

Examine the way Israelites were saved from the Egyptians through the waters of the sea.The baptism in water symbolizes also the crossing of the waters of the sea.Still the Israelites had to follow the Lord in the desert to make it to the promised land,just like we are baptized in water to declare that we no longer are under the World,but we follow our Lord to make it to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Let me repeat your words.

"The baptism in water symbolizes also...."

Yes! The water in baptism symbolizes - that is the point. Past that we can look at symbolic parallels, but the point is that it is symbolic.

We are saved by baptism in water but that is not entering the Kingdom of Heaven, it is only being saved from the World and its master.

The biggest problem with this is that scripture does not tell us that it is water that saves us but rather the blood that was sacrificed on the cross for our sins.

The thief that was crucified with Jesus,made it to Heaven although he was not baptized.The World still had authourity on him and the World judged him and his penalty was... death!

So you are saying that there have been two ways to be saved - one through Christ and baptism and another without water, which is..? - Please describe this second way to be saved through which the thief was saved.

If you are saying that his physical death was required because he was not baptized, you ought to visit a funeral home - it happens to us all, baptized or not.

sndbay · May 15, 2009, 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by Tj3

The biggest problem with this is that scripture does not tell us that it is water that saves us but rather the blood that was sacrificed on the cross for our sins.

It is the faith in Christ that SAVES us.. the fulfill law of faith to answer HIS calling. HIS blood set us free from the curse of sin, and brought us HIS righteousness.

The calling to salvation is based on LORD one Faith one Baptism (Eph 4:5)

cozyk · May 15, 2009, 08:10 AM

Does it REALLY matter? All of this is symbolic. Isn't it the authenticity of the spirit,(that is no secret to God )that really matters. All these other particulars are much ado about nothing. Splitting hairs, I'd say.

adam7gur · May 15, 2009, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by homesell

Note that it was "the red sea" or sea of blood. Just as the blood of Christ washes away our sins. Adam7gur you say yourself that "the baptism in water symbolizes." Doesn't that mean that water baptism is symbolic? You talk about "make it to the kingdom of heaven". Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but it sounds like you're saying by being baptized you are declaring that from now on you will try to follow Jesus to "make it" to the kingdom of heaven. That sounds like "works" on your part.
"It is by grace you are saved through faith and not of works lest any man should boast."
"You are not under law but under Grace"
"For no man shall be saved by the works of the Law.

Jeff
Yes it is grace by we are saved just as by grace the Israelites were saved by the Egyptians.
Jesus said that the whole law is included in loving God and our neighbour.
That is work to me 'cause someone has to prove his love.
If I want to make it to the Kingdom of Heaven , I have to love God and my neighbour.That is my work.
Following God is our work just like the Israelites had to do in the desert.They had to follow God and by following Him they would all have made it to the promised land!
Walking in the desert is work and that's one of the ways they proved their love for God!

lighterrr · May 15, 2009, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by adam7gur

Jeff
Yes it is grace by we are saved just as by grace the Israelites were saved by the Egyptians.
Jesus said that the whole law is included in loving God and our neighbour.
That is work to me 'cause someone has to prove his love.
If I want to make it to the Kingdom of Heaven , I have to love God and my neighbour.That is my work.
Following God is our work just like the Israelites had to do in the desert.They had to follow God and by following Him they would all have made it to the promised land!
Walking in the desert is work and that's one of the ways they prooved their love for God!

I agree with Adam its not through the grace of jesus we are saved it is the grace within us that saves us. Jesus just came to show us the way it is up to us to apply his teaching.
The parting of the red sea is a very good example of grace. As the Isrealites where cornored by the Egyptians they called unto God, and his response was why are you calling me, you have all you need within you.
Everything we need to obtain our salvation is alrady within us

homesell · May 15, 2009, 11:12 AM

Black ink is adam7gur - blue ink is homesell
Jesus said that the whole law is included in loving God and our neighbour.
That is work to me 'cause someone has to prove his love.
The theif on the cross did not "prove" his love by doing anything but believing. If I repent of my sins and the saving grace of God comes into me and then I die in a car accident hours later, I haven't proved my love other than by believing.
If I want to make it to the Kingdom of Heaven , I have to love God and my neighbour.That is my work.
Why do you keep saying "make it" to the kingdom of heaven when the Holy spirit within us is our assurance that God will save us?
Yes, we will (not have to) love God and our neighbor when we are saved. That is not our "work" Jesus said our "work"(singular) "is to believe on Him who the Father sent."
Following God is our work just like the Israelites had to do in the desert.They had to follow God and by following Him they would all have made it to the promised land!
They walked in the dessert for forty years because they disobeyed God and were not allowed to see the promised land
Walking in the desert is work and that's one of the ways they proved their love for God!
Like they had a choice? They whined and complained and asked to go back into slavery the whole time. Joshua and Caleb were the only two that got to actually enter into the promised land because they were faithful. Even Moses, because he messed up with the rock/water thing was only permitted to see the promised land from afar.