[Tj3]

Hebrews 12.10: "in order that we may share <or: participate> in his holiness".

Christ's righteousness is imputed to those who believe - but it is HIS righteousness, not our. This has nothing to do with becoming "gods" or becoming God.

2Peter 1.4: "may become participants of the divine nature" (FYI: the divine nature is divinity--so we will participate in God's divinity).

Ever heard of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? God remains God, man remain man. It does not make man God.

1Corinthians 15.28: "so that God may be all in all [hina he ho theos ta panta en pasin]".

1 Cor 15:28
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
NKJV

To claim that this suggests that man becomes gods or God is a major stretch. Especially if you take the time to read it in context:

1 Cor 15:20-27
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
NKJV

Ephesians 1.10: "as a plan for the fullness of time, to gather up all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth".

Read the whole verse:

Eph 1:7-10
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him.
NKJV

This is speaking of redemption, not making men gods or God.

Acts 3.21 on apokatastasis. See Matthew 17.11, also on apokatasis.

This is speaking also of being saved:

Acts 3:19-21
19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.
NKJV

This this is speaking of John the Baptist:

Matt 17:10-13
11 Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. 12 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands." 13 Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.
NKJV

Yes, Akoue, I take the time to read the context!

This is an important issue, and it is directly relevant to the topic of the thread since it speaks to the question concerning what we are predestined for. The answer is given quite explicitly at 2Peter 1.4: Participation in the divine nature. In Greek this is called theosis. Don't make the mistake I have seen some fall into, of confusing theosis with the (Mormon) idea that we are to become gods in our own right. It is rather the idea that we are to become one with God, with the Divine nature. The oneness with God made possible by Christ isn't merely the harmony of our will with that of our Creator; the oneness with God which we are to enjoy is deeper than that. The perfection of our sanctification (a process which has already begun, of course) will come with our transformation, the transformation of our nature through unity with the Holy Trinity.

It does not matter how you explain it. Scripture is clear that men do not become gods. The only places that you find any mention of such a thing is when Satan tries to transfer his ambition to become god to man, and in Psalm 82 / John 10 when it is a condemnation / judgment against those who are unsaved and who have rejected the righteousness of God.

As for Mormons theology, I have, numerous times debated this very thing with Mormons and Roman Catholics who have joined together in agreement on their beliefs, defending them as a commonly held belief - one such catholic is a common participant on this board. Some people on another board thought for a while that he had converted to Mormonism, he was such a strong defender of their teachings for a period.

Note also that the Catholics, Orthodox, and others who believe in theosis are not as a rule adherents of the man-made doctrine of sola scriptura, a doctrine we recently saw you unable to vindicate.

Their lack of adherence to sola scriptura is no doubt one of the reasons that we differ on this point, I agree. Scripture is very clear regarding the fact that men are not gods, and I stick by what it says.

[Wondergirl]

This has nothing to do with becoming "gods" or becoming God.

Theosis is not "men becoming gods."

[adam7gur]

Fred, Akoue
Thank you!

[Tj3]

Theosis is not "men becoming gods."

I did not bring up theosis - Akoue did.

But the Roman catholic denomination does speak of men becoming god's and men becoming God.

What I am trying to figure out is why this is being brought up at all - what does that have to do with predestination in any case?

[Wondergirl]

I did not bring up theosis - Akoue did.

But the Roman catholic denomination does speak of men becoming god's and men becoming God.

What I am trying to figure out is why this is being brought up at all - what does that have to do with predestination in any case?

adam7gur quoted from Psalm 82, and you responded to him that men do not become gods (no apostrophe). Others chimed in with opinions, and Akoue explained theosis, a sort of related but different and much misunderstood theology. It has to do with predestination in that... are we predestined for theosis?

[Tj3]

adam7gur quoted from Psalm 82, and you responded to him that men do not become gods (no apostrophe). Others chimed in with opinions, and Akoue explained theosis, a sort of related but different and much misunderstood theology. It has to do with predestination in that...are we predestined for theosis?

Anyone can believe what they want, but men do not become gods in any way, shape or form. God even warned us against exalting ourselves:

Matt 23:12
12 And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
NKJV

Which is what calling ourselves gods in any form does.

Therefore God could not have predestined anyone to something that He condemns.

[sndbay]

I did not bring up theosis - Akoue did.

But the Roman catholic denomination does speak of men becoming god's and men becoming God.

What I am trying to figure out is why this is being brought up at all - what does that have to do with predestination in any case?

Reference: Ex 22:28 shows the gods, are as the rules, representiing God in judgement of the people. But they were being called gods.

And we are to walk in righteousness, being holy as He is HOLY because we confess faith and worthyness in HIS blood that set us free from what Adam and Eve did. There is no double minded option once baptized into the newness of life. We are no longer cursed because we have the free will choice to the Tree of Life.

If anyone doubts this, they doubt Christ's worthyness, and remain in sin.
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

It is clear if anyone wants to be a sinner, they remain with satan and his tree of knowledge in evil.

1 John 3:1-3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

[Akoue]

Christ's righteousness is imputed to those who believe - but it is HIS righteousness, not our. This has nothing to do with becoming "gods" or becoming God.

Here's the verse I quoted:

Hebrews 12.10: "in order that we may share <or: participate> in his holiness".

This doesn't say anything about "imputation". It says, quite explicitly, that we share or participate in God's holiness. How many holinesses are there? Just one, right? God's. There is only one holiness, and it is in that one holiness that we participate.

Surely you aren't going to tell me that this verse doesn't mean what it says. I ask, because it says "share", not "impute".

Ever heard of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? God remains God, man remain man. It does not make man God.

Here's the verse I quoted:

2Peter 1.4: "may become participants of the divine nature" (FYI: the divine nature is divinity--so we will participate in God's divinity).

This says nothing about the "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit. It says that we are to participate in the Divine nature. Again, I am assuming that the Scripture means what it says.

1 Cor 15:28
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
NKJV

To claim that this suggests that man becomes gods or God is a major stretch. Especially if you take the time to read it in context:

Why, then, I guess it's a good thing that I didn't claim that it "suggests that man becomes gods [sic] or God". It does, though, say that "God may be all in all". We will become one with God, we will participate in God's nature, in his holiness. This is exactly what the doctrine of theosis and its Catholic counterpart say. If you dislike the use of the word "deification" then it seems likely that the reason for this is your poor understanding both of Scripture and of the Orthodox and Catholic teachings. (You make a telling remark below which appears to indicate that this diagnosis is on the right track.)

Eph 1:7-10
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him.
NKJV

This is speaking of redemption, not making men gods or God.

Theosis is redemption. I thought you had studied this stuff.

This is speaking also of being saved:

Acts 3:19-21
19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.
NKJV

This this is speaking of John the Baptist:

Matt 17:10-13
11 Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. 12 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands." 13 Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.
NKJV

Again, you have led us to believe that you've studied this stuff. So I am to gather that you know nothing about apokatastasis? That's fine. We'll just set it aside. You should spend some time pondering what is meant by talk about the "restoration of all things".

It does not matter how you explain it.

This is a very telling statement.

Scripture is clear that men do not become gods. The only places that you find any mention of such a thing is when Satan tries to transfer his ambition to become god to man, and in Psalm 82 / John 10 when it is a condemnation / judgment against those who are unsaved and who have rejected the righteousness of God.

Scripture is clear that we will participate in the Divine nature. This participation in the Divine nature is called theosis by Eastern Orthodoxy and deification by Catholicism.

I have said nothing about Psalm 82 or John 10. You can take that up with Adam7gur, if you like.

As for Mormons theology, I have, numerous times debated this very thing with Mormons and Roman Catholics who have joined together in agreement on their beliefs, defending them as a commonly held belief - one such catholic is a common participant on this board. Some people on another board thought for a while that he had converted to Mormonism, he was such a strong defender of their teachings for a period.

Since Catholic and Mormon theology are not in agreement on this matter, it seems likely that one or both of the following things were going on between these (fictional?) interlocutors: (a.) The Catholic and Mormon were in agreement with each other that you were mistaken, or (b.) one or both of them had a deficient understanding of the teachings of his own church. Either way, the anecdote contributes nothing to the present discussion.

Their lack of adherence to sola scriptura is no doubt one of the reasons that we differ on this point, I agree. Scripture is very clear regarding the fact that men are not gods, and I stick by what it says.

I'd offer a slightly different diagnosis. You reject much of God's revelation to his people. You reject God's word, every bit of it that isn't written down in the canon of Scripture that you have chosen to use. Scripture is very clear that we will participate in the Divine nature. Since God's nature is his divinity, we will share in God's divinity. Perhaps if you were to avail yourself of the whole of God's word you would find yourself less prone to misunderstand Scripture.

Then again, since you are unwilling to be obedient to God's word when it tells us to uphold and abide by oral Tradition, it isn't altogether surprising to find you unwiling to acknowledge the truth of the doctrine of theosis/deification despite Scripture's explicit affirmation that we are to participate in God's holiness and nature, becoming one with God so that, in the fullness of time, God "may be all in all".

[Akoue]

Fred, Akoue
Thank you!

And thank you, Adam, for your very thoughtful contributions to the discussion.

[Tj3]

Here's the verse I quoted:
This doesn't say anything about "imputation". It says, quite explicitly, that we share or participate in God's holiness. How many holinesses are there? Just one, right? God's. There is only one holiness, and it is in that one holiness that we participate.

Surely you aren't going to tell me that this verse doesn't mean what it says. I ask, because it says "share", not "impute".

IT does not say anything about making men gods or God. But we do know about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in context. Surely you don't advocate taking a single verse out of context and altering what it says to agree with your private interpretation.

And so on with the other verses.

Theosis is redemption. I thought you had studied this stuff.

One of us has, and apparently you are not familiar with the teaching. I quoted the CCC, so we know what the Roman Catholic denomination has to say about it.

Scripture is clear that we will participate in the Divine nature. This participation in the Divine nature is called theosis by Eastern Orthodoxy and deification by Catholicism.

Which differs from the context of scripture which doe NOT say that men become gods or God, but says that the Holy Spirit indwells believers.

I have said nothing about Psalm 82 or John 10. You can take that up with Adam7gur, if you like.

Perhaps you have not been following the discussion.

I'd offer a slightly different diagnosis. You reject much of God's revelation to his people.

I accept ALL of God's revelation, which includes the prohibition against adding to it.

But then I note that you end your message moving in the direction that every discussion goes - a false accusation.

[Wondergirl]

Which differs from the context of scripture which doe NOT say that men become gods or God....

Neither does theosis.

[Tj3]

Neither does theosis.

I quoted the Roman Catholic denomination's doctrine which specifically says that men become gods and men become God. Deny that it says what it says if you wish, but that does not change anything.

[Wondergirl]

I quoted the Roman Catholic denomination's doctrine which specifically says that men become gods and men become God. Deny that it says what it says if you wish, but that does not change anything.

That is not theosis. What you quoted is not what Akoue is talking about.

[Tj3]

That is not theosis. What you quoted is not what Akoue is talking about.

Then perhaps he should not respond to CCC Article 460 with a comments on a different topic.

BTW, do you know that an alternate term used by the Orthdox Church for theosis is "deification" of man?

[Wondergirl]

Then perhaps he should not respond to CCC Article 460 with a comments on a different topic.

He didn't. You threw in the CCC thing.

BTW, do you know that an alternate term used by the Orthdox Church for theosis is "deification" of man?

You have your facts wrong--or at least misunderstand that term.

[Tj3]

He didn't. You threw in the CCC thing.

For your benefit, let's go back over what happened.

- Adam, with the agreement of Fred brought up the idea that men are gods.
- Classy questioned if that was a doctrine of the Roman Catholic denomination.
- I pointed out that it was by quoting the CCC article 460.
- Akoue responded in post 258.

You should check out the facts before criticizing others.

You have your facts wrong--or at least misunderstand that term.

Check any Orthodox church site. That is the word that THEY use.

Once again, it would benefit you to check first.

[Wondergirl]

Once again, it would benefit you to check first.

I have checked. As I said, "deification" has a whole 'nother shade of meaning than what you are giving it. That's the meaning Akoue is using. I'm so sorry you are missing the boat. He explained it well more than once in this thread.

[Tj3]

I have checked. As I said, "deification" has a whole 'nother shade of meaning than what you are giving it.

I gave it no definition, so you are making assumptions. Check the dictionary for the definition.

That's the meaning Akoue is using. I'm so sorry you are missing the boat. He explained it well more than once in this thread.

Akoue can believe what he wishes, but the discussion is on article 460 which is quite specific on it's meaning. I'll let you grab a dictionary to look up the meaning of deification.

Again, I suggest that you get your facts straight first.

[Wondergirl]

I gave it no definition, so you are making assumptions. Check the dictionary for the definition.

Yes, you did. You said it means "men become gods or God."

Akoue can believe what he wishes, but the discussion is on article 460 which is quite specific on it's meaning. I'll let you grab a dictionary to look up the meaning of deification.

Again, I suggest that you get your facts straight first.

But that is NOT what he is referring to as "deification." Please read his very lucid definition.

[Tj3]

Yes, you did. You said it means "men become gods or God."

I did not define deification, and that is what we are talking about.

But that is NOT what he is referring to as "deification." Please read his very lucid definition.

I do not care about HIS definition. He can create his own if he wishes, but the question was surrounding article 460 of the CCC.