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N0help4u · Apr 19, 2009, 04:58 PM

I agree that in this context it means more.
God wants us to realize that he is serious and worthy and in all our righteousness and trying to work things out to conclusions that if we do not do so in a way pleasing to him then our fear and trambling awe is often not much more than our human reasoning. God wants something deeper. David repented from the heart and all his efforts of trying to achieve spirituality from logic would have been vain on his own part.

Wondergirl · Apr 19, 2009, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

Okay up to the word "concern". Though we do have concern for uncertainties, if we are in the place that god would have us to be, we would have no concern for the uncertainties of life, because we would completely rest in Him, knowing that He has it all under control.

But how many of us reach that state of no concern, that we rest totally in God's love and care? We as humans living in this world will always have a certain amount of concern, sometimes less, but sometimes more.

Tj3 · Apr 19, 2009, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

But how many of us reach that state of no concern, that we rest totally in God's love and care? We as humans living in this world will always have a certain amount of concern, sometimes less, but sometimes more.

Agreed that we will have concern, but that is not what God wants of us, and indeed not what Paul under inspiration of God would want of the church in Philippi. Therefore I would not expect that Paul would be telling them that that is how they should be responding.

Also, as has been pointed out by myself and others, a pastor leaving would not be expected to cause a sense of fear and trembling. Paul's ministry was to build up the church, and build up leaders. The church at Philippi by this point was around for a decade or more, and thus would have some other leaders in place. Paul's absence would therefore not be a disaster.

sndbay · Apr 19, 2009, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

I agree that in this context it means more.
God wants us to realize that he is serious and worthy and in all our righteousness and trying to work things out to conclusions that if we do not do so in a way pleasing to him then our fear and trambling awe is often not much more than our human reasoning. God wants something deeper. David repented from the heart and all his efforts of trying to achieve spirituality from logic would have been vain on his own part.

Yes the desire to serve God and do HIS will is the important step in fear. Holding the wisdom and knowledge that allows us to be one in Christ. Be holy as He is holy.

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction

Wondergirl · Apr 19, 2009, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

Agreed that we will have concern, but that is not what God wants of us, and indeed Paul under inspiration of God would want of the church in Philippi. Therefore I would not expect that Paul would be telling them that that is how they should be responding.

Also, as has been pointed out by myself and others, a pastor leaving would not be expected to cause a sense of fear and trembling. Paul's ministry was to build up the church, and build up leaders. The church at Philippi by this point was around for a decade or more, and thus would have some other leaders in place. Paul's absence would therefore not be a disaster.

"Fear and trembling" is not shaking-in-their-boots scaredness with accompanying wailing and gnashing of teeth. As I said, "fear and trembling" means we have a deep respect (awe) for our God as well as concern for the uncertainties that we will experience as we live life and mature spiritually, i.e. grow in grace.

The "concern" I am talking about is not head-pounding worry and sleepless nights, but is honest evaluation of a situation to which the tools God has given us will be applied so that we can grow in grace.

Tj3 · Apr 19, 2009, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

"Fear and trembling" is not shaking-in-their-boots scaredness with accompanying wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Actually, it is. The words in Greek are:

Fear - phobos - means "alarm or fright"
Trembling - tromos - means "trembling" or "quaking with fear"

Wondergirl · Apr 19, 2009, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

Actually, it is. The words in Greek are:

Fear - phobos - means "alarm or fright"
Trembling - tromos - means "trembling" or "quaking with fear"

And how does that equate with what you said earlier: "we should also, in fact even moreso view Him with fear and trembling when we reflect upon who He is, and His awe and majesty" and how is that different from what I said: "fear and trembling" means we have a deep respect (awe) for our God."

Tj3 · Apr 19, 2009, 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

And how does that equate with what you said earlier: "we should also, in fact even moreso view Him with fear and trembling when we reflect upon who He is, and His awe and majesty" and how is that different from what I said: ""fear and trembling" means we have a deep respect (awe) for our God."

Look at the description of Jesus in His glory in Revelation chapter 1:

Rev 1:12-17
12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.
NKJV

And look at John's reaction to this vision:

Rev 1:17-19
17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
NKJV

Notice that though John was with Him as a man for years, he was so in fear at the sight of Him in His glory that he was as a dead man. We need to be always aware of who it is that we are dealing with. Yes, Jesus can be as a brother to us, but never forget that He is also the one true Almighty. Omnipotent God of the universe who created heaven and earth.

How do you reconcile what fear and trembling mean with your interpretation?

Wondergirl · Apr 19, 2009, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

Look at the description of Jesus in His glory in Revelation chapter 1:

Rev 1:12-17
12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.
NKJV

And look at John's reaction to this vision:

Rev 1:17-19
17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
NKJV

Notice that though John was with Him as a man for years, he was so in fear at the sight of Him in His glory that he was as a dead man. We need to be always aware of who it is that we are dealing with. Yes, Jesus can be as a brother to us, but never forget that He is also the one true Almighty. Omnipotent God of the universe who created heaven and earth.

How do you reconcile what fear and trembling mean with your interpretation?

What?? Huh?? Please answer my question, especially the underlined part --

And how does that equate with what you said earlier: "we should also, in fact even moreso view Him with fear and trembling when we reflect upon who He is, and His awe and majesty" and how is that different from what I said: ""fear and trembling" means we have a deep respect (awe) for our God."

Tj3 · Apr 19, 2009, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

What??? Huh??? Please answer my question, especially the underlined part --

Post #68.

Wondergirl · Apr 19, 2009, 05:33 PM

Let me be the first to say that Tj3 and WG agree, and have used almost the same words in their agreement:

Tj3: "we should also, in fact even moreso view Him with fear and trembling when we reflect upon who He is, and His awe and majesty"
WG: "fear and trembling" means we have a deep respect (awe) for our God"

Tj3 · Apr 19, 2009, 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Let me be the first to say that Tj3 and WG agree, and have used almost the exact same words in their agreement:

Tj3: "we should also, in fact even moreso view Him with fear and trembling when we reflect upon who He is, and His awe and majesty"
WG: "fear and trembling" means we have a deep respect (awe) for our God"

We agree if you completely ignore the areas where we disagree, which was what "fear and trembling" means in the context of this specific passage.

I note that although I provided a detailed answer of your question, you did not answer mine:

How do you reconcile what fear and trembling mean with your interpretation?

Wondergirl · Apr 19, 2009, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

We agree if you completely ignore the areas where we disagree, which was what "fear and trembling" means in the context of this specific passage.

I note that although I provided a detailed answer of your question, you did not answer mine:

How do you reconcile what fear and trembling mean with your interpretation?

WE AGREE --

WG: "Work out your own salvation"... means to take what God has given us to its logical conclusion, to meet responsibilities and to carry them out. God's grace does not end once we are justified. He gives us the power to accomplish what His pleasure is for us and equips us with the skills and tools to accomplish His will.
TOM: Looking at it in context, I think that it is simply an attempt on Paul's part to make them more aware that their salvation comes from God, and they shold always be in awe of Him and have appropriate reverence for Him.

WG: "Fear and trembling" means we will have a deep respect for our God as well as concern for the uncertainties that we will experience as we live life and mature spiritually, i.e. grow in grace.
TOM: Since we are to be bondservants to Christ, we should also, in fact even more so view Him with fear and trembling when we reflect upon who He is, and His awe and majesty.

Tj3 · Apr 19, 2009, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

WE AGREE --

No, we don't.

WG: "Fear and trembling" means we will have a deep respect for our God as well as concern for the uncertainties that we will experience as we live life and mature spiritually, i.e. grow in grace.

This is a quote from your post #54, and I responded in post #55.

No, I do not agree with this statement. Do you want to go around in circles and repeat everything that we just said again, or will you deal with the question that I asked and move forward?

classyT · Apr 19, 2009, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

Agreed. I think to suggest that this would leave them in fear and trembling or that paul would encourage them to be is hard to imagine.

We may agree on this, but I am not sure if you will agree with what I am about to say. I agree that we cannot lose our salvation (i.e. inadvertently become unsaved), but scripture is clear that we can choose to intentionally turn away from our salvation, for example:

Heb 6:4-7
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
NKJV

oooh Tj3,

We DO disagree. I believe these Jewish people Paul is writing to were NEVER saved. They tasted... I taste things when I am cooking for my family but if that is all I did take a taste or two, it wouldn't give me nutritional value in other words.. couldn't LIVE on it. The Lord I believe expects us to guzzle the gospel of grace.. they were tasting it to see if they liked it. See if it suited them but they didn't want to give up the Law, the sacrifices. They were partakers of the Holy Spirit... they were NOT indwelt. Indeed the Holy Spirit did enlighten them but they were giving up the truth for the law.

In scripture we are given a few examples of what I think Paul was addressing. Judas is one, Saul was another. Both professed, both were enlightened, both rejected they didn't really believe.

Our churches are FULL of them IF you are saved and I mean REALLY saved, you cannot lose your salvation I think the scriptures are pretty clear as long as we keep them in context, understand who is writing, who it is written to... why it is written. These are my thoughts... I could be wrong but I don't think I am. Not everyone that owns the name of Christ KNOWS him.

Wondergirl · Apr 19, 2009, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by classyT

you cannot lose your salvation

You always have free will in this life and can always change your mind to say "No thanks, God."

classyT · Apr 19, 2009, 06:12 PM

WG,

So then the Holy Spirit who indwells us just pops out. My Bible says I have been SEALED with him. IF I have to keep my salvation, in fact if I have anything at all to do with it other than accept it as a free gift.. I will screw it up. I can't keep my salvation. Salvation is of the LORD not Tess. It scares me to death to think that I could do something to mess it up.. trust me I would.. I KNOW me.

Wondergirl · Apr 19, 2009, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by classyT

WG,

so then the Holy Spirit who indwells us just pops out. My Bible says I have been SEALED with him. IF i have to keep my salvation, in fact if I have anything at all to do with it other than accept it as a free gift..i will screw it up. I can't keep my salvation. Salvation is of the LORD not Tess. It scares me to death to think that I could do something to mess it up..trust me I would..i KNOW me.

Like I said, we can always say no. Are you planning to?

classyT · Apr 19, 2009, 06:24 PM

I don't think someone who is saved CAN say no. I think I can sin, I think I can act pretty ugly, I think I can even make people that know me question my salvation... but I can't say no I don't believe in the finished work of Jesus.

Paul was addressing Jews who were steeped in the law, heard the truth and tasted it a bit, considered it, liked it, saw the power but decided... naah I'm going back to the law and all that it entailed.

Wondergirl · Apr 19, 2009, 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by classyT

I don't think someone who is saved CAN say no. I think i can sin, I think I can act pretty ugly, i think I can even make people that know me question my salvation....but I can't say no I don't believe in the finished work of Jesus.

Of course someone can! I know several who have gone from being Paul-types to being Saul-types.