[Akoue]

What I am always trying to convey is that you can have this relationship with God even if you have never opened a bible.

And this is something with which no Christian ought to disagree, even though many do (or at least seem to). The earliest Christians didn't have the Bible. For most of our history, a single Bible cost about the same as a dozen castles (yes, books were that expensive, even after the advent of the printing press) and so most people couldn't afford it. Likewise, for most of our history--and even today in lots of places--literacy was hard to come by and so most people, indeed the vast majority of people, couldn't read the Bible.

To say that the Bible is the only way to God is to back into the unfathomably addled view that all these people were (and are) somehow barred from God, shut out. I am not saying this to be dismissive of the Bible, but only to point out that no one, no Christian, should ever make the mistake of supposing that the only way to get to God is through its pages.

[450donn]

That is just plane silly to think that a "Christian" living in the western hemisphere should not own/read a bible all the time. All it takes is enough will power to turn off the idiot box for 30 minutes a day and instead turn to the word of God for that time. I still like the analogy about buying a car and never opening the owners manual to learn about that new cars features and how to use them.
Can you have a relationship with your family if you never call/write/ or go see them? NO you cannot. So how much more difficult is it to have a relationship with God if you never read and learn how he wants you to live?

[classyT]

The ONLY way to the Father is through Christ. NOT reading the Bible. But the beauty of the church today is THAT we do have the complete Word of God. Now WHY wouldn't we as followers of Christ WANT to. I'm not saying you can't be a Christian and not read the Bible. I'm saying you can't be an EFFECTIVE one. How can you even defend your faith if you are going by what you FEEL and THINk is the truth. Everyone has an opinion. Big deal.

This is just ONE of the things the Apostle Paul says about it...

"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for
teaching,
for reproof,
for correction,
for training in righteousness;
that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."
(2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Notice it says ALL. SCRIPTUURE.. the early church was using the OT. But hey, that verse was just inspired of God and written by Paul... why listen to little ol me.

[classyT]

That is just plane silly to think that a "Christian" living in the western hemisphere should not own/read a bible all the time. All it takes is enough will power to turn off the idiot box for 30 minutes a day and instead turn to the word of God for that time. I still like the analogy about buying a car and never opening the owners manual to learn about that new cars features and how to use them.
Can you have a relationship with your family if you never call/write/ or go see them? NO you cannot. So how much more difficult is it to have a relationship with God if you never read and learn how he wants you to live?

I will tell you whan it is difficult to read the word as a Christian... when it goes against my fleshy desires... uhhhh I don't enjoy it so much then but that's OK... it is the Lord's way of saying "tess, you aren't living right" or "this is the way...walk in it".

[classyT]

I'm not looking for enlightenment. I'm asking a fellow human being who, whether he and I agree or not, appears to be thoughtful and to have given the matter considerable attention, to share his thoughts. Whether he is hostile to Christianity is something I cannot discern from his posts. Maybe he is. Maybe he is hostile, but not toward Christianity but to some of the things people say about Christianity. Maybe he's even hostile to some of the things I have said. I don't know and I don't much care. I don't think he should have to jump through hoops or otherwise prove himself to you or me or anyone else in order to register his views about the matters under discussion here. Whether he respects "it" or not isn't really my business. And he's said some things that I find interesting and about which I'd like to hear more if he's willing to expand on what he's already said.

At any rate, I am not in a position to speak for ordinaryguy. And I'm pretty confident he doesn't need me to speak for him.

Akoue,

I understand. I was simply saying... take it to a religious discussion room. He doesn't have an answer for christianity. Look I don't want him to PROVE himself to me and I'm pretty sure he ain't trying to. I don't dislike ordinary guy, on the contrary, I enjoy discussing things with him. THIS board isn't the place... lets start a new thread in religious discusssions... then we can get everyone viewpoint. I like that.

[jakester]

And this is something with which no Christian ought to disagree, even though many do (or at least seem to). The earliest Christians didn't have the Bible. For most of our history, a single Bible cost about the same as a dozen castles (yes, books were that expensive, even after the advent of the printing press) and so most people couldn't afford it. Likewise, for most of our history--and even today in lots of places--literacy was hard to come by and so most people, indeed the vast majority of people, couldn't read the Bible.

To say that the Bible is the only way to God is to back into the unfathomably addled view that all these people were (and are) somehow barred from God, shut out. I am not saying this to be dismissive of the Bible, but only to point out that no one, no Christian, should ever make the mistake of supposing that the only way to get to God is through its pages.

Akoue - I agree with your premise here because simply having a bible and reading it does not necessarily translate to faith in God. The Pharisees were the strongest opponents of Jesus and yet they clung tightly to the Scriptures. They claimed to have a rightful understanding of God and yet Jesus criticized their interpretation of it, which fundamentally served their purposes of self-deceit and evil intentions.

The way I see it is this. The story of the bible itself is a sword that cuts to the heart of a person. I may not be able to read and I may not have a bible but the question is this: when I am confronted with the gospel and it's message, how do I respond to it? John the Apostle says that "he who says he has no sin deceives himself and the truth is not in him." He also says that "he who denies the Son has not the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also." To me, there is a connection between how I see myself and how I see Christ. People who do not see themselves as sinners in need of mercy do not see Christ as their Saviour. And if one denies that Christ is the Saviour, then that one also denies God (finds him unacceptable).

So, the point I am making is this. Having a bible and reading it does not make one a believer and not having a bible and not reading a bible does not make one an unbeliever. The bible makes a big deal about the "inwardness" of a person. That place in one's heart where the truth of God either resides or does not reside. I could have never heard the gospel before in my life, but God could have given me a heart that is fond of the truth and desirous of knowing God. I would argue that if someone were to teach the gospel to someone with that kind of heart, they would respond positively to the message of the gospel because it is God's truth. This, I think, is the meaning of what the writer of Hebrews is saying: "the word of God is living and active and is sharper than any two-edged sword; piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart." God's word is that thing that cuts us to the core of who we are and it reveals the desires of our heart... whether they be good or evil.

Sincerely.

[classyT]

Jakester,

I love your posts... I'm 47 and get a little ticked sometimes and it shows.. you are a young pup and I'm learning from you everyday. I know I'm always giving you kudos... but you deserve them.

I'd like to add this... FAITH cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. How can we spread the gospel or wisdom without the world of God. :)

[classyT]

Class, Tom, and Arcura,
I can speak for my self and possibly even more Godly people as to why we come onto the christian board. I am one of a large group that believe in God. Even believe that Jesus could be "the son" of God. Aren't we all the son or daughter of God? Anyway, I love God, honor Him, worship Him, pray to Him, and live for Him. I consider him my father, my friend, and it is His presence in my heart that gives me comfort. Knowing that I am never alone and neither is anyone else on this planet. We all have 100% of His attention as if we are his only child, but he gives that 100% to each and every soul.

I believe that under the umbrella of christianity is a huge population of worshipers that feel as I do. We have been turned off by the fundamentalist that wave the bible at you as they tell you how unworthy they are. There was a preacher in my childhood that actually held his worn bible, waved it at us as if he were wagging his finger, yelling, crying, getting all red in the face and making us all feel like unworthy pieces of you know what.

My belief in God takes a different path. I believe he loves us and wants us all to feel cherished, special, empowered, confident, and worthy. To bring others to Him by way of kindness and compassion. Not to ever use the bible as an instrument of fear or punishment, or to substitute it for your conscience. With an open heart, your conscience is the voice of God telling you the difference between right and wrong. It is a direct line to God's guidance. It is the ultimate guide book. I and many others adhere to that guide book as we have found the bible become less and less relavant in our personal relationship with our God.

What I am always trying to convey is that you can have this relationship with God even if you have never opened a bible. God is not in there. He is in our soul, our spirit and our essence. Living for God and living a godly life is easy because it is what you want to do, not what you have to do to gain your ticket to heaven. It transends any verse in the bible that may or may not have been God's original intention. Remember man wrote it. Not God.

Classy, I hit the disagree button on your post because...I disagreed. The bible is not the only path to God. I did not find Him in there but I found Him.

Cozy,

Perhaps I misjudge ordinaryguy. I just didn't trust his motives. I get you and while I disagree with almost EVERYTHING you just said.. I don't think your motives are wrong. I don't hink you are here to find amusement. I'm no judge and shouldn't judge so if I was offensive Ordinaryguy... I apologize.

I paid you back for the reddie :) yes I know... not very Christian like and even slighty immature on my part. I'm still a work in progress...

[jakester]

Jakester,

i love your posts...I'm 47 and get a little ticked sometimes and it shows..you are a young pup and I'm learning from you everyday. I know i'm always givin ya kudos...but you deserve them.

I'd like to add this...FAITH cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. How can we spread the gospel or wisdom without the world of God. :)

Tess - yeah, that is a good point. I think sometimes I puzzle over the connection between faith and the hearing of the word of God. Reason being is that when I think back to Abraham, Abraham was alive and kicking before the scriptures were ever given. The word that he responded to from God initially was this:

"Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

When I look at this, I am amazed at the interaction. Abraham obeys God but he has no real context in which to believe God. Abraham was 75 years old when this took place but I presume, anyway, that Abraham had already believed in God prior to this event. His heart, I assume, was already prepared for God to command him in this way. This phenomenon is what I was talking about. The preparation of the heart that God does through the Spirit to bring about a heart of obedience to whatever thing God calls us to do. What do you think about Genesis 12? I'm curious as to your thoughts about it.

[gromitt82]

Well, that's interesting, because I find your point of view regarding Tj3 interesting as well. What's interesting to me is that you think God made His choices and decisions about the canon known through the ecclesiastical workings and councils of the Roman Catholic Church, whereas Tj seems to think He conveyed them to "the body of believers", but won't say exactly when or how. Isn't that interesting?

Personally, I don't think God gives two hoots about the Bible. I think it's a human creation from beginning to end, just like all the other holy books in the world, and I mean that in the most complimentary way. I think all such books are valuable for the insight they give into the tremendous variety of ways humans and their cultures have conceived of and related themselves to the world of Spirit. But reading them won't convince a skeptic that such a world exists, and it doesn't necessarily connect us to that world.

The Holy Bible is a human creation, but many of us believe it has been inspired by God. Perhaps you may wish to read what I amb telling our friend Galveston in a previous post I have sent today.

Of course, you realize that pretending to know whether God inspired to any extent these Scriptures is just a matter of faith as far as the O.T. is concerned. However, this is not insofar what refers to the N.T. because, if nothing else, the Gospels transmit to us the very Message from Jesus Christ via de Evangelists.

Yet, if you do not consider Jesus to be the Son of God –hence God himself- then I have nothing else to add…:):)

[gromitt82]

Tess - yeah, that is a good point. I think sometimes I puzzle over the connection between faith and the hearing of the word of God. Reason being is that when I think back to Abraham, Abraham was alive and kicking before the scriptures were ever given. The word that he responded to from God initially was this:

"Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

When I look at this, I am amazed at the interaction. Abraham obeys God but he has no real context in which to believe God. Abraham was 75 years old when this took place but I presume, anyway, that Abraham had already believed in God prior to this event. His heart, I assume, was already prepared for God to command him in this way. This phenomenon is what I was talking about. The preparation of the heart that God does through the Spirit to bring about a heart of obedience to whatever thing God calls us to do. What do you think about Genesis 12? I'm curious as to your thoughts about it.

Since he had the capacity to reason man has always believed in all sort of deities. At a given time, many determined than there should be One God only (even the Egyptians arrived for a while at that conclusion with Akhenaton) and Abraham was no exception.

He was, in all likelihood, fully prepared to listen to what God might ask him to do. As you know, Abraham was, according to the Genesis, was the tenth generation from Noah and the 20th from Adam…

He was not therefore the first one to believe in Yahweh!:):)

[cozyk]

]The ONLY way to the Father is through Christ. NOT reading the Bible. But the beauty of the church today is THAT we do have the complete Word of God.

]So you believe. Has God not had anything else to say for 2000 years. Why did he stop?

The bible bores me, is hard to understand, and I'm not convinced that what it has to say really matters in my life. I'm not saying that everyone should do as I do. I'm just saying I don't want or feel the need to read it.

Believe me I've read it A LOT. I grew up Baptist , went to church at least 3 times a week, was in the GAs and had to memorize scripture, went to GA camp where we had "Bible Study" everyday and I hated it. My mother required that we have a devotion every night before we went to bed. This went on from about age 8 to age 20 when I moved out. Nothing like mandatory worship. I'd say I worship God more now than I ever did. I don't do it with reading, singing, listening to preachers but by living it. By the way, all the years of having nightly devotion did not seem to enhance the behavior of my mother who was the one that required we do it. You don't read about it, you DO it.

I'm not saying you can't be a Christian and not read the Bible. I'm saying you can't be an EFFECTIVE one. How can you even defend your faith if you are going by what you FEEL and THINk is the truth. Everyone has an opinion. Big deal.

Depends on your definition of effective. I don't try to defend my faith. I don't need to. It is what it is and I'm not out to convert others to be like me. To defend it sounds like you have to work at believing it. Like the "thou doest protest too much" analogy. If you were confident in it, you would not have to stomp your feet so hard and insist that you are right.

"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for
teaching,
for reproof,
for correction,
for training in righteousness;
that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."
(2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Oh boy, more scripture.

Notice it says ALL. SCRIPTUURE.. the early church was using the OT. But hey, that verse was just inspired of God and written by Paul... why listen to little ol me.

So you say.

[classyT]

Cozyk,

I don't know if you have been paying attention but Christianity as understood in the NT is under attack. Christians have been persecuted for years... I WLL defend my faith and the Bible. The word says to study to show yourself approved so that you can answer people. LOL I enjoyed your "ohi boy" more scripture". Would you prefer it if i came in to the Christian boards and dropped my Bible off and just gave you some of my "thoughts' and "feelings" about God and what HE thinks. Come ON! What do you want me to back my words up with? I DO have a book of TESSY but I got a sneaking suspicion you isn't going to like that either... LOL LOL :)

No cozy it isn't "SO I say"... it is what the Bible says and I have no other authority.

I'm sorry you are turned off by mandatory reading, prayer, going to church etc... But see, I totally disagree with that too. I do NOT believe christianity is about rules, and you MUST DO THIS OR THAT. I don't feel guilty if I miss church, or a bible study. It is ALL about the relationship. But the thing is the relationship has got to be on HIS terms... according to the scripture. His requirement is coming to the Father through Jesus his son.

[ordinaryguy]

With this you appear to be touching on something with which I have a long-standing interest (in a non-pejorative sense of "interest"), and I wonder if you'd be willing to say more about what you have in mind with the contrast between "out there" and "in here". Given the reception you seem to be getting I will, of course, quite understand it you'd rather not expand on what you've said. But if you are willing, I'd like very much to hear more about how you think about this: what "in here" refers to and what is to be found there; whether there are things to be found "in here" that aren't available "out there".

This isn't intended as a challenge, nor to set-up a challenge. I don't see that you've said anything hostile to Christianity. In fact, it looks like you may be giving voice to something that a good many Christians feel (or, at least, something I've often heard said). I'd be grateful if you would be willing to say more about how you think about these matters.

I'd be delighted. Here's a link to a new thread in Religious Discussions.

[classyT]

Tess - yeah, that is a good point. I think sometimes I puzzle over the connection between faith and the hearing of the word of God. Reason being is that when I think back to Abraham, Abraham was alive and kicking before the scriptures were ever given. The word that he responded to from God initially was this:

"Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

When I look at this, I am amazed at the interaction. Abraham obeys God but he has no real context in which to believe God. Abraham was 75 years old when this took place but I presume, anyway, that Abraham had already believed in God prior to this event. His heart, I assume, was already prepared for God to command him in this way. This phenomenon is what I was talking about. The preparation of the heart that God does through the Spirit to bring about a heart of obedience to whatever thing God calls us to do. What do you think about Genesis 12? I'm curious as to your thoughts about it.

I'm going to go read over Genesis 12 and then maybe we will start a new thread. I'd love to get everyone take on it. ( but I need to clean up the bathrooms first... the life of a housewife is NOT glamorous... ha!)

[ordinaryguy]

Akoue,

I understand. I was simply saying...take it to a religious discussion room. He doesn't have an answer for christianity. Look I don't want him to PROVE himself to me and I'm pretty sure he ain't tryin to. I don't dislike ordinary guy, on the contrary, i enjoy discussing things with him. THIS board isn't the place....lets start a new thread in religious discusssions....then we can get everyone viewpoint. I like that.

I agree. I've started a new thread and posted a link in my response to Akoue above.

[450donn]

cozyk disagrees: It's THAT attitude that turns people off. I pray to God, I be still and listen to what God is telling me. The instruction book is not necessarily needed. Especially if reading it just makes your head hurt.

And so again simply because you have a different opinion of what I said you gave me a reddie. What is it with you and reddies? Have you not read the guidelines about the rating system?
So again I will refer you to the guidelines for proper use of the rating system.
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/forum-...nes-24951.html
If you choose to not read and understand the inspired word of God, that is your right. But it is still my belief that to be an effective Christian you need to read and understand what God wants in your life.

[Tj3]

Jakester,
I love your posts... I'm 47 and get a little ticked sometimes and it shows..

You're just a young gal. I got another 7 years on you!

I agree with your comments about Jakester - He seems to be very solidly grounded.

I'd like to add this... FAITH cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. How can we spread the gospel or wisdom without the world of God. :)

Indeed - Also Romans 10:14-17

[Tj3]

The Holy Bible is a human creation, but many of us believe it has been inspired by God.

We believe it is inspired by God because God said that it is

2 Tim 3:16

[cozyk]

I get it now. The option to disagree is not for when you disagree with what a poster has written. Okay now, that makes a lot of sense.