[De Maria]

It just seems to me that this idea of Mary as "ever virgin" puts a bad light on married sex, like she was too good for it.

More like He was too good for it.

Ezekiel 44:2
Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.

[Wondergirl]

More like He was too good for it.

Yes, she was the mother of Jesus, but still a human being with all the wants and needs of one. To deny her sexual feelings and desires seems counterproductive. She, of all people, would be mortified that a church decided to pronounce her, a self-described humble servant of the Lord, sinless and swept into heaven bodily.

[JoeT777]

Yes, she was the mother of Jesus, but still a human being with all the wants and needs of one. To deny her sexual feelings and desires seems counterproductive. She, of all people, would be mortified that a church decided to pronounce her, a self-described humble servant of the Lord, sinless and swept into heaven bodily.

It’s precisely Mary’s humility that made her the handmaiden of God. She wasn’t self-described, she was acclaimed by an angel of God, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.”

Wouldn’t the “fullness of grace” be much more heartwarming than her human desires? Any animal can reproduce. Only one woman encompassed Christ, why deny her that Glory?

JoeT

[Wondergirl]

It's precisely Mary's humility that made her the handmaiden of God. She wasn't self-described, she was acclaimed by an angel of God, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.”

Wouldn't the “fullness of grace” be much more heartwarming than her human desires? Any animal can reproduce. Only one woman encompassed Christ, why deny her that Glory?

JoeT

She called herself "servant." That's self-described in my book. So you are tossing away her human desires so you can put her on a pedestal? You have consigned her to a sexless life so you can call her "ever virgin"?

Any animal can reproduce? She did produce Jesus the normal way mothers have babies. Nothing was original in the process. Jesus didn't pop out of her forehead like Athena did out of Zeus's. I'm guessing she had labor contractions for any number of hours. I'm guessing they hurt like labor contractions hurt. I'm guessing she got all sweaty with the effort and probably grunted and even screamed between moans. I'm guessing she spent labor thinking and worrying about all the things we mothers think and worry about. The fact that this baby was the Son of God was probably far down on her list, after "how much longer will this labor last" and "will he nurse readily" and "will he have all his fingers and toes". There wasn't much glory going on during labor, and, according to NT stories that included mention of her, not much glory otherwise either -- no room in the inn, losing track of her Son in Jerusalem, being scolded by her Son at the Cana wedding, standing at the foot of the cross on Golgatha.

[JoeT777]

She called herself "servant." That's self-described in my book. So you are tossing away her human desires so you can put her on a pedestal? You have consigned her to a sexless life so you can call her "ever virgin"?

If you’re talking about here soliloquy, I don’t see the same significance. She is eulogizing God’s glory that such as her should be so honored. Are you imprinting your own bias onto Mary? Should she have been more like you to pass muster?

Any animal can reproduce? She did produce Jesus the normal way mothers have babies. Nothing was original in the process. Jesus didn't pop out of her forehead like Athena did out of Zeus's.

Yes, but how does a virgin do this and remain virgin? Remember, Mary is EVER virgin. So, you see Catholics see more of a mystery in Christ’s birth than the birth of an ordinary man.

I'm guessing she had labor contractions for any number of hours. I'm guessing they hurt like labor contractions hurt. I'm guessing she got all sweaty with the effort and probably grunted and even screamed between moans. I'm guessing she spent labor thinking and worrying about all the things we mothers think and worry about. The fact that this baby was the Son of God was probably far down on her list, after "how much longer will this labor last" and "will he nurse readily" and "will he have all his fingers and toes".

I’m sorry; I just can’t envision an all loving God bringing harm to His Mother, even in birth. Remember, we are talking about a God who became man, allowed Himself to be tortured and crucified so that you could be free of sin. Would such a God bring pain to His earthly mother? I think not. There was much more to Christ’s birth than the presence of the Magi.

There wasn't much glory going on during labor, and, according to NT stories that included mention of her, not much glory otherwise either -- no room in the inn, losing track of her Son in Jerusalem, being scolded by her Son at the Cana wedding, standing at the foot of the cross on Golgatha.

Aren’t you contradicting yourself? You start with saying that Mary held herself above mere mortals and now you complain of her humanity. I’m confused; which way is it to be?

JoeT

[Wondergirl]

If you're talking about here soliloquy, I don't see the same significance. She is eulogizing God's glory that such as her should be so honored. Are you imprinting your own bias onto Mary? Should she have been more like you to pass muster?

She called herself God's servant. My bias for WHAT? She was like me and that's the glory of it, of her calling.

Yes, but how does a virgin do this and remain virgin? Remember, Mary is EVER virgin. So, you see Catholics see more of a mystery in Christ's birth than the birth of an ordinary man.

A virgin is a woman who has never been penetrated vaginally by a man. Mary had this Baby Jesus and was still a virgin. I have no problem with that. But why consign her to virginity and no sex life for the rest of her life? That makes it look like there is something wicked about married sex.

I'm sorry; I just can't envision an all loving God bringing harm to His Mother, even in birth. Remember, we are talking about a God who became man, allowed Himself to be tortured and crucified so that you could be free of sin. Would such a God bring pain to His earthly mother? I think not. There was much more to Christ's birth than the presence of the Magi.

So you don't think she experienced labor contractions, didn't sweat and moan and cry out during labor? She was fully human! She wasn't upset and worried when Jesus was missing in Jerusalem? She wasn't a bit put out at first when her Son scolded her at the wedding? She wasn't heartbroken at the foot of the cross? You would deny her her humanity?

You start with saying that Mary held herself above mere mortals and now you complain of her humanity.

I didn't say she held herself above mere mortals. I said she WAS a mere mortal.

[galveston]

Bottom line here.

My original point is that for Catholics, Tradition trumps Scripture. That has been fully demonstrated in the above posts, several different times and ways.

And this on a subject that has absolutely NO bearing on the Person and Lordship of Jesus Christ or our relationship with Him.

There are other Traditions that DO deal with VITAL spiritual issues, and therefore more important.

Like the Tradition of Immaculate Conception.

Gal 3:22
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
(KJV)

(Mary was saved by FAITH, just like everyone else.)

Ps 14:2-3
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
(KJV)

Rom 3:10
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
(KJV)

Rom 3:12
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
(KJV)

Isa 64:6
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
(KJV)

There is nothing clearer in Scripture than the universal need of salvation.

If ONE person can be born of man without a fallen nature, then ALL can be born of man without a fallen nature.

Do you deny that Mary was conceived in the ususl manner?

Once again, Tradition trumps Scripture?

This is important, because if it were possible for God to grant salvation to any human without the sacrifice of Jesue Christ, then what He did at Calvary was Unnecessary.

Which way do you see it?

[De Maria]

Yes, she was the mother of Jesus, but still a human being with all the wants and needs of one.

You are expressing what you feel. It is difficult to express to some that those who love God with all their heart, do not need human companionship. Least of all, a sex life, to be happy.

To deny her sexual feelings and desires seems counterproductive.

You confuse sex and love.

Yes, between married humans, sex is the physical expression of love. But neither St. Joseph nor St. Mary loved each other more than they loved God. They loved God more and were united to Him in a profound union. They, in fact, did not fit the description in St. Paul's lament for they who are married:

Romans 7 32But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: 33But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. 34There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

They in fact, lived as he suggested that we should live:
29But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none;

Why? Because they lived as though they were married to God.

She, of all people, would be mortified that a church decided to pronounce her, a self-described humble servant of the Lord, sinless and swept into heaven bodily.

I doubt it. Humility does not mean a refusal to acknowledge the gifts one receives from God. In fact, that is a form of pride.

True humility proclaims the grace on has received of God and gives thanks for it.

[RickJ]

My original point is that for Catholics, Tradition trumps Scripture. That has been fully demonstrated in the above posts, several different times and ways.

You are wrong.

Many non-Catholic Christians believe similarly but this is incorrect. It is an "urban legend".

[De Maria]

Bottom line here.

My original point is that for Catholics, Tradition trumps Scripture. That has been fully demonstrated in the above posts, several different times and ways.

That is not what we've said. We've said, in so many words, that Tradition and Scripture are the Word of God.

However, you seem to believe that Scripture trumps Tradition. Could you show me from Scripture?

And this on a subject that has absolutely NO bearing on the Person and Lordship of Jesus Christ or our relationship with Him.

It has a tremendous bearing in our relationship with Christ. But we read Scripture differently. As you know, we read the spirit and the letter of Scripture. Whereas you are taught to eschew the spirit and read only the letter. But this itself is against Scripture:

2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

There are other Traditions that DO deal with VITAL spiritual issues, and therefore more important.

Like the Tradition of Immaculate Conception.

Gal 3:22
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
(KJV)

(Mary was saved by FAITH, just like everyone else.)

Mary was saved by GRACE, just like everyone else. And she maintained her salvation THROUGH her faith and works:

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ps 14:2-3
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
(KJV)

Rom 3:10
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
(KJV)

Rom 3:12
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
(KJV)

You forgot one more verse from Romans, which we should not ignore but include in order that we can get a balanced understanding of Scripture on this topic:

Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Therefore, Scripture acknowledges that not all have sinned. This is confirmed in logic because we know that many have died in the womb and as infants. And they certainly did not sin before they could have intended to offend the Will of God.

Isa 64:6
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
(KJV)

There is nothing clearer in Scripture than the universal need of salvation.

Correct. That is why Mary was saved at the moment she was conceived.

If ONE person can be born of man without a fallen nature, then ALL can be born of man without a fallen nature.

Correct.

Do you deny that Mary was conceived in the ususl manner?

Do you mean in a sexual relationship between Sts. Joaquim and Anna, her father and mother? No.

Do you mean do I believe that she was conceived without original sin on her soul? Yes.

Once again, Tradition trumps Scripture?

Show me where Scripture says that she was conceived with original sin on her soul.

Scripture does not say that Mary was conceived in the usual manner.

This is important, because if it were possible for God to grant salvation to any human without the sacrifice of Jesue Christ, then what He did at Calvary was Unnecessary.

Which way do you see it?

As the Church teaches it.

We are not necessary. God is self contained and can exist without us. Therefore if we are unnecessary, then it is certainly unnecessary that the Second Person of the Holy Trinity should need to become man and be sacrificed on the Cross to save us.

That simply shows the extent of God's love for us. That He did something for us which was unnecessary for Him. HIS LOVE FOR US IS BEYOND COMPREHENSION!

[Wondergirl]

You are expressing what you feel. It is difficult to express to some that those who love God with all their heart, do not need human companionship. Least of all, a sex life, to be happy.

But all you say in your post is based on church tradition (with capital letters?), not with any Scriptural backing, especially specifically to Mary and Joseph. It's a lovely, romantic thought that the two of them did not live together as normal married people but walked around wearing halos and looking blessed. My idea of them is that they were deeply immersed in the everyday pleasures of work, family, and marriage, including marital sex.

[Wondergirl]

Why? Because they lived as though they were married to God.

There is absolutely no Biblical evidence that they did.

[Wondergirl]

Show me where Scripture says that she was conceived with original sin on her soul.

Show us where it says she was conceived sinless.

Why weren't Mary's parents conceived sinless too?

[JoeT777]

Show us where it says she was conceived sinless.

Why weren't Mary's parents conceived sinless too?

Genesis 3:15 will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

The Holy Mother is the New Eve. She is the woman whose seed crushes the head of the serpent.

Luke 1:28 chaire kecharitomene, Hail, full of grace. You can't be full of grace if you're not immaculate. Maybe the Angel was wrong? Nah!

Tradition also speaks volumes of Mary being immaculate. If you care to, I'll let you look these up yourself. (link)


And finally we have the decree of Pius IX (link)


JoeT

[Wondergirl]

Genesis 3:15 will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

There is much debate regarding that interpretation.

Maybe the Angle was wrong? Nah!

That's not what the "angle" meant. Are we doing geometry now?

As a Christian, I'm full of grace -- God's grace.

Tradition also speaks volumes of Mary being immaculate.

But the Scriptures never mention it.

And finally we have the decree of Pius IX (link)

Who?

[JoeT777]

There is much debate regarding that interpretation.

That's not what the "angle" meant. Are we doing geometry now?

As a Christian, I'm full of grace -- God's grace.

But the Scriptures never mention it.

Who?

I was taught that Euclid was angling for Saint Hood. So, I was help’en.

[JoeT777]

There is much debate regarding that interpretation.

Plain Latin is too much for you? I can understand angles Greek, so what’s so hard about plain Latin to English.

That's not what the "angle" meant. Are we doing geometry now?

Uhm What part of ‘full of grace’ do you not understand? The last I heard is it meant ‘full of grace.’ There are no angles here!

As a Christian, I'm full of grace -- God's grace. [/QUOTE]

But the Scriptures never mention it.

I've got the Church and the Apostles also. I hope you don't fly much - like on airplanes - because they aren't in Scripture either. [/QUOTE]

Who?

Pope Pius IX --- Pope Pius IX ---


JoeT

[Wondergirl]

Plain Latin is too much for you? I can understand angles Greek, so what's so hard about plain Latin to English.

Ummmm, it's not Latin. It's Greek. It is translated as "Yo, God has chosen you."

And that's your proof that Mary was sinless?

[JoeT777]

Ummmm, it's not Latin. It's Greek.

Oops

[Wondergirl]

Oops

And I am supposed to believe you after that??