[De Maria]

Perhaps you are right with this conclusion. Do we both believe in the unity or joining of Christ in us?
....~Compassion of heart, Love for God as a child of God

In the end, we must all follow our conscience. If it violates your conscience to pray to God through the intercession of a saint. By all means, don't do so.

As for me, I believe that a Saint's prayer is more efficacious than mine. I believe that Mother Mary's prayers are infinitely more efficacious than mine. Therefore, I will have recourse to the family which God gave me.

[sndbay]

In the end, we must all follow our conscience.

Scripture says the conscience mind can be defiled.. My conviction of heart follows Christ Jesus who dwells in me, and I in HIM. Baptized in confession of HIM... HIS worthyness... HIS righteosuness.... that shows the way.

Tts 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.



Hebrew 6:19-20 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

[sndbay]

As for me, I believe that a Saint's prayer is more efficacious than mine. I believe that Mother Mary's prayers are infinitely more efficacious than mine. Therefore, I will have recourse to the family which God gave me.

Just one question more.. you see I do not feel others can save you...there is no recourse in your own accountability of faith..

man has come up with recourse by purgatory as well.

Where does the assuredness of Christ step in?

Is this more concluded in doubt that has caused a need for the recourse?

If Christ dwells in you, and you in HIM by the unity in baptism? do you think He would leave you outside the veil?

[De Maria]

Just one question more.. you see I do not feel others can save you...

James 5:20
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

there is no recourse in your own accountability of faith..

We don't save anyone ourselves. But in leading them to Christ, we help them be saved:

1 Corinthians 7:16
For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

1 Corinthians 9:22
To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

man has come up with recourse by purgatory as well.

Not man but the mercy of God:
1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Where does the assuredness of Christ step in?

We trust in man because we trust in Christ who gave man authority to forgive sin:
John 20:23
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Is this more concluded in doubt that has caused a need for the recourse?

It is concluded in His wisdom which we obey. We don't have recourse to our own interpretations but to the Word of God which was given unto Holy Men, first to preach and teach and then to write:

2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

If Christ dwells in you, and you in HIM by the unity in baptism? do you think He would leave you outside the veil?

Even the Apostles asked for our prayers.

Romans 15:30
Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;

Did they think they were left outside the veil? Obviously not. But God gave us an economy of Love. Wherein we all care for each other and pray for each other, whether we be alive in the flesh or in the Spirit.

Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Why else are we surrounded by a cloud of witnesses. That they might assist spiritually in every way possible. Much more then if we beseech their assistance.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

Tj3,
Does that mean that you do not believe that people in heaven are not alive?

I do not believe that those who heaven who died saved have living bodies opf flesh in heaven, no.

Do you?

As I recall Scripture Jesus ascended into heaven with His body.
I talk with Jesus now don't you?
Fred

Jesus is God - do you see a difference there?

[Wondergirl]

I do not believe that those who heaven who died saved have living bodies opf flesh in heaven, no.

Does it matter if they have bodies of flesh? They are alive and are aware (or aren't they?).

[De Maria]

Does it matter if they have bodies of flesh? They are alive and are aware (or aren't they?).

Good question. I believe Scripture reveals they are alive and aware. But I await Tom's reply.

[Tj3]

Does it matter if they have bodies of flesh? They are alive and are aware (or aren't they?).

It matters because God said it matters.

Is there anyone here who thinks that their authority exceeds God's authority and thus is willing to say that God's condemnation of speaking to those dead in the flesh is not important?

[De Maria]

It matters because God said it matters.

Is there anyone here who thinks that their authority exceeds God's authority and thus is willing to say that God's condemnation of speaking to those dead in the flesh is not important?

Where is the condemnation you speak of?

[Tj3]

Where is the condemnation you speak of?

I already posted the quote from scripture once (see post #165), and it was posted in response to you at your previous request.

Did you not read it?

[arcura]

Tj3,
Please post it again.
Fred

[Tj3]

Tj3,
Please post it again.
Fred

Go to post 165.

[arcura]

Thanks Tom
Fred

[Tj3]

Thanks Tom
Fred

You're welcome

[De Maria]

Deut 18:9-14
10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you. 13 You shall be blameless before the LORD your God.
NKJV

This condemns satanism and witchcraft.

This does not condemn prayer to Saints.

[Tj3]

This condemns satanism and witchcraft.

This does not condemn prayer to Saints.

I note your careful wording avoiding the fact that it condemns ALL communication with those who are dead in the flesh.

[sndbay]

James 5:20
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

De Maria

Then we would agree that love for God, and love for others, (that includes us) we speak in charity to cover sin.

1 Peter 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.


That in all things being spoken we are edifying faith in Christ.

1 Peter 4:5-6-7 Who shall give account to HIM that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

[De Maria]

Then we would agree that love for God, and love for others, (that includes us) we speak in charity to cover sin.

1 Peter 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.


That in all things being spoken we are edifying faith in Christ.

1 Peter 4:5-6-7 Who shall give account to HIM that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

Amen!

[Wondergirl]

I note your careful wording avoiding the fact that it condemns ALL communication with those who are dead in the flesh.

I do not pray to the saints in heaven, but believe De Maria is correct about this particular verse, that it does not forbid that practice. It forbids black magic and sorcery, but that is not what prayer to the saints is.

Now if a verse said, do not pray to the saints in heaven because they are otherwise employed or because they are asleep until the Last Day, okay then. But this particular verse has nothing to do with saints in heaven.

[arcura]

Wondergirl.
Both you and De Maria are right about that.
It is a big twist of scripture in attempt to interpret that verse in saying something it does not say.
Peace and kindness,
Fred