[ScottGem]

scott i thought your are not an american, but any way i am glad u got some of what i said whatever u said about how americans are preceived around the world is just translated in this forum, i felt i was repeating my self many time just to say one thing because u refuse to hear any thing negatvie about america or even admit it for the fear of being not patriatic , i finally getting my point acroos and talaman why would i seek attention while i am not even visible? all i wanted to say was said and i hope all the people see things differently and fairy so we can have some kind of peace i know like j9 said it may be impossible but at least we try and i think the people make it impossible, peace

This just shows that you haven't been paying attention. It was Ben who said he isn't an American. I've made it clear that I am. I have been saying the SAME thing since you started participating in this thread. I have never refused to listen to your point as you have refused to listen to ours. So if you are just now understanding what I've been saying it because you haven't been listening. I said from the very beginning that I am aware of how we are perceived outside this country and some of the reasons. So for you to say you are finally getting your point across is ridiculous. You have been repeating yourself because you haven't been paying attention to what has been said to you.

We have been listening to what you have had to say. I've just proven that. Now lets put the shoe on the other foot. Why not try reading and attempting to understand what we have said. Why not answer the specific counterpoints we have made instead of just repeating the same tired rhetoric.

You said that we should understand the root cause of 9/11. So tell us what you think that is. Explain to us what horrors America has done that would cause someone to commit mass murder!

Oh and try to do so, by writing like an adult, not some kid who writes like he's text messaging on a cell phone all the time.

[J_9]

Well, since this is in Members Discussions I could not comment Scott.

So I will do so now

WHAM BAM THANK YOU SCOTT!!

YOU HIT THE HEAD RIGHT ON THE FREAKING TARGET!!

[SHAHRAZAD]

U said you were in 9/11 and americans were generous to you so I assumed you are not american, and are you waiting for me to say here every thing? I thought I told you to watch the documentaries I sugested and I am not trying to make 9/11 less tragic than it is, I think, which I did not want to say that you all proved the first post on this thread and if you think my post is not written well is just avoiding the issue and sometimes you can get ideas from kids, lol. Adios

[phillysteakandcheese]

There are people in this world that are "drunk" on hatred for the USA. They won't see things any other way, no matter what other contradictory information is present.

I'm not an American. I can sympathize with the fact that the USA does sometimes "throw its weight around" at the expense of others. Of course I don't like that, and while I may be annoyed with the USA in general at various points in time, I certainly do not wish for "America to be punished" or harbor any hate for individual Americans.

I had a room-mate in university that would actually jump up and cheer anytime she saw a news story in which Americans were killed. She - and her friends - had that "drunk on hatred for the USA" attitude. That made me absolutely sick - but it taught me a valuable lesson about people who are "drunk on hatred".

[ScottGem]

u said u were in 9/11 and americans were generous to u so i assumed u r not american, and r u waiting for me to say here every thing? i thought i told u to watch the documentaries i sugested and i am not trying to make 9/11 less tragic than it is, i think, which i did not want to say that u all proved the first post on this thread and if u think my post is not written well is just avoiding the issue and sometimes u can get ideas from kids, lol. adios

I haven't a clue what I said would make you think I wasn't an american. I don't think I've said anything that wouldn't have indicated I'm not.

Just like I figured. When challenged to put up or shut up, you shut up.

I have never discounted anyone's opinions simply on the basis of age. I have treated you seriously and courteously, even though your writing has been juvenile and your writing style indicates a young age. However, a number of the issues being discussed here require some worldly experience to make intelligent comment. Being of a young age would, necessarily, limit that experience. Other factors like the lack of understanding of certain historical events and cultural issues also demonstrate a lack of experience.

But the real issue, that negates any good you might have done with your points, is your refusal to stand behind your position and back it up with facts. Plus your refusal to deal with any specific counterpoints made.

So, in the end, what we see is a kid who has been fed a lot of propaganda and saw an opportunity to spread that propaganda around. This, then, takes away from any value in your message and generally negates it.

There are people in this world that are "drunk" on hatred for the USA. They won't see things any other way, no matter what other contradictory information is present.

Hatred is a base and usually irrational emotion.

What you say is very true. People who hate like that are basically brainwashed. They have been force fed a line of propaganda, helped along by some of the mistakes made by American policies and actions. Such people exult in hating without examining why they hate.

[talaniman]

She didn't even have the courtesy to spell my name right, that proves beyond a doubt she knows nothing about the American way!

[SHAHRAZAD]

Well I guess this a typical american way!! if I am a kid and as you say I do not have experience would that matter if what I am saying is toward something I believe would make a difference and it is not propaganda I am affected by it is truth and I thought americans are unaware and actually innocent and they need to know that because they have power ( being the biggest and powerful country) but from this forum I think if they (some, I don't want to generalize)) do they will not believe it and philly I do not hate individual americans if I was I was not going to have an american boyfriend, and talaniman is the spelling right? U knew I meant u, u seem to find other things to pick up on and make it your primerly argument, I think somebody call me here shah, would I say oh no you have to say my whole name? This is childish, and scott I told you to watch other documentaries but you do not want you just want to take personally with me, did you know long time ago what america did to algadafi and how his daughter was killed and do not give the old american government justification, every time they attack other countries they say we want to protect the people form this fascist he bad for their country and united state is coming to your home to correct that, and do you know how the soviet union really collasped and when bill clinton when he was in a mess in his scandel how he tried to divert the attention by sending a missile to sudan to hit a pharmaceutical factory and the justification was he thought it was for chemical weapons a lot of innocent poor people died in that and now iraq and the funny thing is that all with good intentions right, I am not denying good things but that would not deny the bad

[ScottGem]

iam saying is toward something i believe would make a difference and it is not propaganda i am affected by it is truth and i thought americans r unaware and actually innocent and they need to know that because they have power ( being the biggest and powerful country)

Well there is just an example. You have somehow got this idea that Amercians are unaware and innocent. But that's not a true reflection of Americans in general. Sure there are plenty who follow our leaders blindly. Look how many still support Bush! But, in my experience, Americans are more aware and worldly then ever before.

scott i told u to watch other documentaries but u do not want u just want to take personally with me, did u know long time ago what america did to algadafi and how his daughter was killed and do not give the old american government justification, every time they attack other countries they say we want to protect the people form this fascist he bad for their country and united state is coming to your home to correct that, and do u know how the soviet union really collasped and when bill clinton when he was in a mess in his scandel how he tried to divert the attention by sending a missle to sudan to hit a pharmaceutical factory and the justification was he thought it was for chemical weapons alot of innocent poor people died in that and now iraq and the funny thing is that all with good intentions right, i am not denying good things but that would not deny the bad

Why do I need to watch these documentaries (not that I won't or haven't)? Why can't you you just state your opinions. You are the one bringing this up.

Are you referring to the head of Libya (algadafi)? The one who funded and encouraged many acts of terrorism? As I recall his daughter got killed in a RETALIATORY attack. So?

"every time they attack other countries". Other than Iraq, when did America ever attack other countries? Every other war we have been involved in America or her allies was attacked first!

I believe I do know how the Soviet Union collapsed, but I'd be interested in hearing why YOU think it happened.

One of the things I like about Clinton, is that he was, for the most part, able to keep his personal life separate from his presidency. You claim the attack in Sudan was just done to divert attention from the Lewinsky mess. What proof do you have of that?

Again, I challenge you to deal with each counterpoint. So far you haven't strayed from your one-sided, propaganda fueled appraoch.

[talaniman]

You still haven't said where you come from and I've seen your documentaries and so what? If Gadafi had not aided and abetted terrorism he wouldn't have been bombed end of that. A lot of innocent poor people always die when some slum lord oil dictator thinks he can take over the world and destroy or convert everyone to his rule. Some people just ain't going for it, and they will meet the same fate as innocent and the innocent and soon to be innocent who hide in among the innocent and everyone says oh woe is me. I've me a break if people would heed the warning and turn these jokers in you think they would have to tear up whole towns to get them to STOP shooting bombs at Israel? And if America is so bad does that make the middle east so good? As a matter of fact, what good do they do themselves or the world where they can even say the U.S. is so bad.

[SHAHRAZAD]

Scott, about gadafi that america was scared of him supporing terror did he come to america to kill he just had oil and some power over that and every thing is about oil, america imposed economic sanction on a lot of countries for bullies reasons , and for clinton it does not matter if he wanted to divert or no it just shows the power with disrespect to other countries america has, I talked to the people who lost relatives in that attack and it was senseless, in 11/9 those fanatic think it is justifiable because they lost close relative because of american policy what about what clinton did, it was without strong evidence and the response was oops we had info that was chemical weapons factory just like going into iraq again oops our info was wrong that is why I say america government is bully, they just say oops, and soviet union was powerful as america and communist. It all happened with gorbatchof who was duped ( I am not sure this is the right spelling) yes the soviet union was suffering financially but america's agenda was to destroy the competitor power even a previous secertray of the states wrote a book I am not sure what it is called but it has to do how to destroy communism, it was a battle between too powers and america wants to be the only power, gadafi was supported by the soviet union, and has weapons support from them that how america thought he had power and had to teach him a lesson actually it was simple as that, these are gadafi's words, if I say more I guess I gathered you will find your own excuse for american government, it is not about defending the past because no matter what you say or defend it happened and there are people know the truth first hand, by admitting and knowing the problem things could be fixed but by denying is not going to resolve any thing, wouldn't u be mad if some one try to make 9/11 less tragic or dispute the fact that innocent people died? At a personal level if some one come to you and say you did this to me and you cause me pain you think you would say you needed a lesson and I hope now you got it , u think that would stop that person from being angery and retaliate even in a bigger way when they get a chance and little power, deny someone's pain just because you are powerful and abusing it is not the answer, and what is going on with israel and plastine america's position is clearly biased, why would you think a 10 year old girl would be suicide bomber or you just brudh it off by saying she is just a little terrorist come on be fair and and consistente in fairness and sympathey, and taltniman why would you want to know where part of the world I am from would is that relevant?

[ScottGem]

More propaganda. Gadafi sponsored several acts of terrorism against Americans. The Pan Am flight that crashed near Lockerbie, Scotland was just one of them. Economic sanctions were imposed by the UN, not just the US.

First you claim Clinton attacked the plant to divert attention, then you say that isn't the issue. But the plant was attacked because intelligence showed it was being used to make chemical weapons. It had nothing to do with disrespect. It was part of the war against terrorism. Granted we should have done a better job in confirming the intelligence, but if the terrorists weren't consistently on the attack, there wouldn't be a need to defend. And it goes back to what Talaniman has been saying. If the countries and the people within them, harbor the terrorists, then they are going to pay the consequences.

I have said, in other places, that I never supported the Iraq war. That's one of the few places you have some fact and reason to support your point. But then 9/11 directly led to the Iraq war. If it hadn't been for 9/11, Bush would have never gotten the support to do it.

Boy have you got it wrong. It was the publicly stated goal of the Soviet Union to bury the US and the west. Look up Kruschev. The only thing keeping the USSR from attacking the US was the balance of power. The USSR instigated many skirmishes during the Cold War. The USSR fell because communism had failed as an economic system. Through the use of worldwide communications (specifically the Internet), Russian people began to see all the advantages of the west. They compared it to the little that had. The US contribution was simply to make information open to all. The Soviet Union collapsed on its own weight primarily from the inside. It was the Soviet Union that wanted to be the only world power, not the US. While there hae always been hawks in the US who feared the USSR, most people were perfectly willing to peacefully co-exist.

So, as I suspected you are being fed propaganda and are swallowing it hook, line and sinker. But you keep putting the cart before the horse. You seem to think that the US has committed some huge offense in the Arab world that justifies everything that follows. Yet you haven't been able to provide any clue of that.

Well I can tell you what it is. The US has supported Isreal. That's it, that's our big crime. The arabs have tried, on several occasions to bury Isreal and failed. Partially because of US support. So the arabs hate the US. That has led to their acts of terrorism.

[SHAHRAZAD]

Let me tel you I was in ussr and I know how things were in term of communism dictator and how it was no life for them interms of having more money or even having a pair of american jeans they did not have colorful life like americans did so they wanted that andit was economic collapse but you will not deny that direct or indirect america has a hand into it after ussr collapse now there no balance in powerthe us can do whatever pleases and then oops it was not like that when ussr had power. The soviet union suppored a lot of countries and these countries were a battle field between these two powers so there was war beside the cold one, you just want to have the US so innocent in the collapse I think you just believe like in the movies america are the good guy and you will not believe any thing and gadafi was supported by soviet union just like the war in afganista it was a battle field for them, and the factory in sudan that factory was in the middle of a resident area so please do not tell me it was suspected, if it was then the CIA is child investigation, you keep denying any thing like I said you will defend if you even hear it first hand, and the un and anan became a joke they are maneuvered by the us all I am saying has nothing to do with the media I have been in all those countries

[ScottGem]

When are you going to read what I say? I did not deny that we had a hand in the USSR's collapse, I even mentioned part of what that hand was. I do deny that we did anything directly to bring it about. Sure the Sudan factory was located in a residential area. That is a typical terrorist tactic. Try to protect the assets because they believe the US is too squeamish to attack in such an instance. Doesn't matter that they are putting innocent lives at risk!

Yes the USSR supported a lot of countries, but their demands for that support were a lot greater then where the US provided support. You don't talk about the USSR invasion of Afghanistan. What was the justification of that? At least the US had the pursuit of those behind 9/11 as justification.

No, I don't deny anytrhing you say, but you are spouting a load of half thruths, innuendo and propaganda. Notice that every time I respond with actual truths, you have to back off a bit.

[talaniman]

SHAHRAZAD, I would like to know what part of the world you are from to try and identify the terrorist cell you are in contact with and the dictator who feeds you the misinformation and propadanda you have so tirelessly been aspousing on this forum. Also in the laws of nature When the big DAWG walks down the street the little pups stay on the porch. Now get with the program and have an intelligent dialog and leave that spoon-fed rhetoric to the dummies who believe it. I hope you grow up and find the truth for yourself and join the world community that what's peace, happiness, and respect. Till then just get your facts straight and use the computer you obviously have for a more constructive ppurpose than spewing garbage. And get the spelling right TALANIMAN!!

[valinors_sorrow]

The engine to the spewing of the half truths and propaganda is that "yous guys" keep responding to it like it was a real debate :rolleyes:... look back and see the pattern for yourself:

More half truths and propaganda...

More reasoning discussion...

More half truths and propaganda...

More reasoning discussion...

More half truths and propaganda...

Reasoning discussion...

Half truths and propaganda...

[ScottGem]

Val,
I know you think we are feeding this by responding, but I think we are helping by debunking the propaganda. We probably will not be able to put a dent in Shahrizad's armor, but there may be other people, more open to truth, who may learn.

[valinors_sorrow]

Okie dokie Scott

[SHAHRAZAD]

What half truth are you saying you are just are what you are and you are going to come back with this converstion tactics (typical) and taliman you just make me laugh, and for ussr invading afganistan I think it was not right and it was dictatorship although I was a communist at a time but I do not think if I was a communist I should support something I know it is wrong just because I belong to that party, I condemn any thing I belong too if they go against what I believe if it is my country or party not just because I belong I have to be blind and justify and just follow, and may be you should all listen to what val said and do not answer and I bet she does not know a thing I was talking about I guess she is just being patriotic! it is not about grammar and spelling and just arguing, and talitman I think you mentioned that a lot of innocet people are going to die when there is a conflict and that the way it is, do feel the same way about 9/11? Like I said your tactics in converstion and where you go and attack which is irrelevant and accuse of half truth and you know exactly what I am saying but I think this is the american way.

[talaniman]

I don't have anything else to do this week but to disparage you yes I admit I could just unsubscibe from this thread and move on but the more stuff you write the sicker you look so for now till I have something better or you get a legitimate life the beat goes on...

[SHAHRAZAD]

oh talanman u do not have to unsubscribe, u all proved one thing and there nothing more ot prove so do not unsubscribe i will feel guilty if i make u go away from a forum u love there is no need so please stay!!!!!! and any way there nothing mosr i have to say to all of u