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Galveston, if "Scripture Alone" is all that one needs, then there would not be over 10,000 different "denominations" (aka "sects") of Christianity. Think about that. |
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I have to shake my head as to how dumb lenox has to be, if he really believes the hatred he is posting.
I would challenge that the catholic church reads the actual bible more during their church service than almost any other church, With new testement readings, old testment readings, gospel readings each service, They have it planned to do basically the entire bible over a three year period in readings. Most churches barely read one or two passages and then the pastor spends the next 30 minutes explaining that one verse. And I assume Lenix forgets that without the catholic Church the bible would have been lost perhaps, it was they the copied, protected it for centeries. Plus of course attacking other christians is not a christian thing, so most that do nothing but post hatred have no real doctrine beyond that of hatred. |
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If mean by "dumb": Not knowledgeable, then I have to agree. Thankfully, this sort of "if you don't believe what I believe, then you are evil or doomed to hell" sentiment is far less than it was when I was a kid... but sadly, we have here evidence that it is still going on :( |
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Also the poster does not like to follow rules, since after being banned under one user name, they have returned under this name. |
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 Originally Posted by RickJ
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This is not uncommon. Members who realize that we are serious about the rules - and follow them (see the Help link at the top and right of every page) are welcome to return. None of us (forum administrators or moderators) are perfect, so we will forgive others as we wish to be forgiven ourselves ;) |
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Originally Posted by galveston
The biggest reason that I don't recognize it is that I do know that the Bible, as you know it, was not what it is today until about 300 years after Christ. So what did the earliest Christians rely on? More info for those of you who rely on "the Bible alone" (aka "Sola Scriptura): Sola Scriptura is the idea that the Bible is sufficient of itself to be the only source of Christian doctrine. It’s the basis of most Protestant “denomination” doctrine. If we believe in this doctrine, then we should find it in the Bible: If we say that all doctrine should be found in the Bible, then we should find the doctrine of Sola Scriptura in the Bible, right? Right. That would be logical…but the problem is that we do not find this in the Bible. The scripture passage so often cited by proponents of Sola Scriptura is 2 Timothy 3: 15-17, however you shall see that Paul teaches nothing of the sort: 2 Timothy 3: 15-17: “…from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” Here there is not even the slightest implication that Scripture is the sole source of doctrine. Indeed, it affirms the value of Scripture - and that it is from God (which Catholics are taught), however nothing implies that it is all we need. To say that Scripture is “useful” is one thing, but to say it is the only writing that ought to be followed is another altogether. Not only is the idea of Sola Scriptura not found in Scripture, itself, the New Testament, in fact, teaches against it: 2 Thessalonians 2:15 ” So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.” 1 Corinthians 11:2 “I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings, just as I passed them on to you.” 2 Timothy 1:13-14 “What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us.” 2 Timothy 2:1-2 “You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others.” The Bible is indeed the Word of God and without error, but neither Christ nor the Bible teach such an idea as Sola Scriptura. |
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Originally Posted by galveston
Here are a few of the ancient Christian writers who believed in this doctrine: Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Athanasius, Hilary of Poitiers, Epiphanius of Salamis, Ambrose of Milan, Jerome (who devoted an entire work to the subject), Augustine, John Damascene, and Cyril of Alexandria. You're of course more than welcome to look them up on your own. It will do you good to read the writings of some early Christians. Very informative. I am always astounded that so many people who claim that Christianity is an important part of their lives don't take the time to learn about its history. |
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Originally Posted by RickJ
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You are correct, Akoue. The idea that Mary was "ever virgin" is what many, if not most, early Christians believed. Here are some quotes from early Christian writers: The Protoevangelium of James "And behold, an angel of the Lord stood by [St. Anne], saying, 'Anne! Anne! The Lord has heard your prayer, and you shall conceive and shall bring forth, and your seed shall be spoken of in all the world.' And Anne said, 'As the Lord my God lives, if I beget either male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God, and it shall minister to him in the holy things all the days of its life.'.. . And [from the time she was three] Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there" (Protoevangelium of James 4, 7 [A.D. 120]). "And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of priests, saying, 'Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, lest perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord?' And they said to the high priest, 'You stand by the altar of the Lord; go in and pray concerning her, and whatever the Lord shall manifest to you, that also will we do.'.. . [A]and he prayed concerning her, and behold, an angel of the Lord stood by him saying, 'Zechariah! Zechariah! Go out and assemble the widowers of the people and let them bring each his rod, and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be.. . And Joseph [was chosen].. . And the priest said to Joseph, 'You have been chosen by lot to take into your keeping the Virgin of the Lord.' But Joseph refused, saying, 'I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl'" (ibid., 8–9). "And Annas the scribe came to him [Joseph].. . And saw that Mary was with child. And he ran away to the priest and said to him, 'Joseph, whom you did vouch for, has committed a grievous crime.' And the priest said, 'How so?' And he said, 'He has defiled the virgin whom he received out of the temple of the Lord and has married her by stealth'" (ibid., 15). "And the priest said, 'Mary, why have you done this? And why have you brought your soul low and forgotten the Lord your God?'.. . And she wept bitterly saying, 'As the Lord my God lives, I am pure before him, and know not man'" (ibid.). Origen "The Book [the Protoevangelium] of James [records] that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word.. . Might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the firstfruit among men of the purity which consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary was among women. For it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the firstfruit of virginity" (Commentary on Matthew 2:17 [A.D. 248]). Hilary of Poitiers "If they [the brethren of the Lord] had been Mary's sons and not those taken from Joseph's former marriage, she would never have been given over in the moment of the passion [crucifixion] to the apostle John as his mother, the Lord saying to each, 'Woman, behold your son,' and to John, 'Behold your mother' [John 19:26–27), as he bequeathed filial love to a disciple as a consolation to the one desolate" (Commentary on Matthew 1:4 [A.D. 354]). Athanasius "Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary" (Discourses Against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]). Epiphanius of Salamis "We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit" (The Man Well-Anchored 120 [A.D. 374]). "And to holy Mary, [the title] 'Virgin' is invariably added, for that holy woman remains undefiled" (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 78:6 [A.D. 375]). Jerome "[Helvidius] produces Tertullian as a witness [to his view] and quotes Victorinus, bishop of Petavium. Of Tertullian, I say no more than that he did not belong to the Church. But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proven from the gospel—that he [Victorinus] spoke of the brethren of the Lord not as being sons of Mary but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, brethren in point of kinship, not by nature. [By discussing such things we] are.. . Following the tiny streams of opinion. Might I not array against you the whole series of ancient writers? Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and many other apostolic and eloquent men, who against [the heretics] Ebion, Theodotus of Byzantium, and Valentinus, held these same views and wrote volumes replete with wisdom. If you had ever read what they wrote, you would be a wiser man" (Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary 19 [A.D. 383]). "We believe that God was born of a virgin, because we read it. We do not believe that Mary was married after she brought forth her Son, because we do not read it.. . You [Helvidius] say that Mary did not remain a virgin. As for myself, I claim that Joseph himself was a virgin, through Mary, so that a virgin Son might be born of a virginal wedlock" (ibid., 21). Didymus the Blind "It helps us to understand the terms 'first-born' and 'only-begotten' when the Evangelist tells that Mary remained a virgin 'until she brought forth her first-born son' [Matt. 1:25]; for neither did Mary, who is to be honored and praised above all others, marry anyone else, nor did she ever become the Mother of anyone else, but even after childbirth she remained always and forever an immaculate virgin" (The Trinity 3:4 [A.D. 386]). Ambrose of Milan "Imitate her [Mary], holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of material virtue; for neither have you sweeter children [than Jesus], nor did the Virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son" (Letters 63:111 [A.D. 388]). Pope Siricius I "You had good reason to be horrified at the thought that another birth might issue from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born according to the flesh. For the Lord Jesus would never have chosen to be born of a virgin if he had ever judged that she would be so incontinent as to contaminate with the seed of human intercourse the birthplace of the Lord's body, that court of the eternal king" (Letter to Bishop Anysius [A.D. 392]). Augustine "In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave" (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]). "It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?" (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]). "Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband" (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]). Leporius "We confess, therefore, that our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, born of the Father before the ages, and in times most recent, made man of the Holy Spirit and the ever-virgin Mary" (Document of Amendment 3 [A.D. 426]). Cyril of Alexandria "[T]he Word himself, coming into the Blessed Virgin herself, assumed for himself his own temple from the substance of the Virgin and came forth from her a man in all that could be externally discerned, while interiorly he was true God. Therefore he kept his Mother a virgin even after her childbearing" (Against Those Who Do Not Wish to Confess That the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God 4 [A.D. 430]). Pope Leo I "His [Christ's] origin is different, but his [human] nature is the same. Human usage and custom were lacking, but by divine power a Virgin conceived, a Virgin bore, and Virgin she remained" (Sermons 22:2 [A.D. 450]). Most Protestants claim that Mary bore children other than Jesus. To support their claim, these Protestants refer to the biblical passages which mention the "brethren of the Lord." As explained in the Catholic Answers tract Brethren of the Lord, neither the Gospel accounts nor the early Christians attest to the notion that Mary bore other children besides Jesus. The faithful knew, through the witness of Scripture and Tradition, that Jesus was Mary's only child and that she remained a lifelong virgin. An important historical document which supports the teaching of Mary's perpetual virginity is the Protoevangelium of James, which was written probably less than sixty years after the conclusion of Mary's earthly life (around A.D. 120), when memories of her life were still vivid in the minds of many. According to the world-renowned patristics scholar, Johannes Quasten: "The principal aim of the whole writing [Protoevangelium of James] is to prove the perpetual and inviolate virginity of Mary before, in, and after the birth of Christ" (Patrology, 1:120–1). To begin with, the Protoevangelium records that when Mary's birth was prophesied, her mother, St. Anne, vowed that she would devote the child to the service of the Lord, as Samuel had been by his mother (1 Sam. 1:11). Mary would thus serve the Lord at the Temple, as women had for centuries (1 Sam. 2:22), and as Anna the prophetess did at the time of Jesus' birth (Luke 2:36–37). A life of continual, devoted service to the Lord at the Temple meant that Mary would not be able to live the ordinary life of a child-rearing mother. Rather, she was vowed to a life of perpetual virginity. However, due to considerations of ceremonial cleanliness, it was eventually necessary for Mary, a consecrated "virgin of the Lord," to have a guardian or protector who would respect her vow of virginity. Thus, according to the Protoevangelium, Joseph, an elderly widower who already had children, was chosen to be her spouse. (This would also explain why Joseph was apparently dead by the time of Jesus' adult ministry, since he does not appear during it in the gospels, and since Mary is entrusted to John, rather than to her husband Joseph, at the crucifixion). According to the Protoevangelium, Joseph was required to regard Mary's vow of virginity with the utmost respect. The gravity of his responsibility as the guardian of a virgin was indicated by the fact that, when she was discovered to be with child, he had to answer to the Temple authorities, who thought him guilty of defiling a virgin of the Lord. Mary was also accused of having forsaken the Lord by breaking her vow. Keeping this in mind, it is an incredible insult to the Blessed Virgin to say that she broke her vow by bearing children other than her Lord and God, who was conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit. The perpetual virginity of Mary has always been reconciled with the biblical references to Christ's brethren through a proper understanding of the meaning of the term "brethren." The understanding that the brethren of the Lord were Jesus' stepbrothers (children of Joseph) rather than half-brothers (children of Mary) was the most common one until the time of Jerome (fourth century). It was Jerome who introduced the possibility that Christ's brethren were actually his cousins, since in Jewish idiom cousins were also referred to as "brethren." The Catholic Church allows the faithful to hold either view, since both are compatible with the reality of Mary's perpetual virginity. Today most Protestants are unaware of these early beliefs regarding Mary's virginity and the proper interpretation of "the brethren of the Lord." And yet, the Protestant Reformers themselves—Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Ulrich Zwingli—honored the perpetual virginity of Mary and recognized it as the teaching of the Bible, as have other, more modern Protestants. Source quoted is here. |
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Originally Posted by Akoue
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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
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Originally Posted by RickJ
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Amen and amen. Christ's Church is ONE. There are no ifs ands or butts. He did not preach sects or "denominations"... Those that He chose as His leaders preached (in the Bible) against divisions. (psst: See the first item in my signature). ... and for those of you who might accuse me of going against the rules, I am not. In my 7000+ posts here you will NOT find me referring to my personal websites on more than what you can count on one hand... and they'll all be here in the "discussion" forums where the rules are admittedly relaxed a bit :D |
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Originally Posted by galveston
Mark 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
[I]I see where you use the arguent that the Pope is a minister to the priesthood. Are you saying that he does not exercise authority over them, and over all the faithful Catholics? I think he does. Apostolic authority is ONLY in the spiritual realm, and Papal authority goes beyond that as proven by just how far it was extended just a few hundred years ago.[I]
Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. Matthew 28: 17And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Do you really think Jesus was refering to your NATURAL father when He said call no man father? He also told them not to be called "rabbi". Jesus was teaching against the human desire for titles.Do you not refer to the Pope as HOLY FATHER? That title belongs to God alone.
1 Thessalonians 2:11 As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children, Therefore St. Paul recognized the spiritual fatherhood of the Priesthood to their flock. We not only refer to the Pope as Holy Father but to all our Bishops and to the Saints: Here's an example: TESTAMENT OF THE HOLY FATHER ST. FRANCIS. The opuscule which St. Francis called his Testament is a precious document of the highest authority... The Writings of St. Francis of Assisi: Part I. Admonitions, Rules, etc.: VI. Testament of the Holy Father St. Francis This refers to St. Francis of Assisi.
Matt 12:48-50
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? And who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. (KJV) With these words, Jesus declared that not even His mother held a position superior to that of those who believe in Him. Now according to your last words, you say that this verse applies to all who believe in Jesus. You and I believe in Jesus. Yet you and I weren't there. Therefore Jesus must have been speaking metaphorically when He said: 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! Wouldn't you agree? Furthermore, I'm a man, so I can't be anyone's mother in real terms. Nor have I ever heard of any individual who is simultaneously mother, brother and sister to anyone else. Therefore, I vote that Jesus is here speaking metaphorically. Now, if I haven't convinced you that Jesus is speaking metaphorically, then I really don't know how to proceed. But if I have convinced you that Jesus is speaking metaphorically, then all we have to do is decide. Is metaphorical dignity equal to real dignity? I say that real dignity is greater than metaphorical dignity. This is obvious because no Angel has appeared to me and proclaimed my favor or my blessedness before God. Yet this did happen to Mary. And Scripture does not say of anyone save Mary that they are to be proclaimed blessed throughout all generations.
I will concede that there are married priests, since Chuck says that it is so.
Now the tradition that conflicts with Scripture. Matt 12:47 47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. (KJV) Matt 13:55-56 55 Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? 56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? (KJV) John 7:3-5 3 His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest. 4 For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world. 5 For neither did his brethren believe in him. (KJV) The tradition of the perpetual virginity of Mary flies in the face of these Scriptures. 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Have you done a thorough study of the language of the Scriptures and of history? Or are you simply repeating the fables of men? If not, that explains why you fail to realize that the word "brother" has meant much more than "brothers of the womb" from time immemorial. Good friends call themselves "brothers" even today. In fact, if we examine the Scriptures, we see the word brother used to describe the relationship between Abram and Lot. Yet we know that Lot is Abram's nephew. And a closer examination of Scripture proves that James, Joseph, Simon and Jude are sons of another Mary, not Jesus' mother, but Jesus' aunt. At best, they could be considered half brothers if they were Joseph's children. But that is even disproved in Scripture. Yet we don't need to delve there because you are challenging Mary's perpetual virginity. Here is what else Scripture says about those individuals who are called Jesus' brethren: According to some, Scripture attests that Jesus had brothers, sons of Mary. They base their opinion on this verse: Matthew 13 55 Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary, and his brethren James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Jude: First, we see that Jesus' mother has a "sister". From Catholic Tradition, we know that Jesus' mother is an only child. So, her sister is really a cousin or other close kin: John 19 25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus, his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalen. We also note that this Mary is always mentioned with Mary Magdalen. The two must have been close friends: Mark 16 1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalen, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought sweet spices, that coming, they might anoint Jesus. Note that in this verse she is not called Mary of Cleophas, but Mary the mother of James. Mark 15 40 And there were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalen, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joseph, and Salome: Here she is the mother of James and Joseph and Salome. The mention of Salome explains the "sisters" of Jesus. Since Mary the sister of Mary His Mother is also His sister or kin. Matthew 27 56 Among whom was Mary Magdalen, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee. Luke 24 10 And it was Mary Magdalen, and Joanna, and Mary of James, and the other women that were with them, who told these things to the apostles. Sometimes she is called "the other" Mary. Matthew 27 61 And there was there Mary Magdalen, and the other Mary sitting over against the sepulchre. OK, so far we've established that James and Joseph are the sons of the other Mary. Not of Jesus' mother. What about Simon and Jude. Luke 6 16 And Jude, the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, who was the traitor. Well, Jude is the brother of James. He says so himself: Jude 1 1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James: to them that are beloved in God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called. And, although Simon the Zealot is rarely mentioned, when he is mentioned, he is always grouped with either James or Jude. Luke 6 15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alpheus, and Simon who is called Zelotes, Acts Of Apostles 1 13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode Peter and John, James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James of Alpheus, and Simon Zelotes, and Jude the brother of James. If we review the listing of Apostles, we will see that the Apostle mentioned as Thaddeus must be Jude and Simon the Zelotes must be Simon the Cananean: Mark 3 16 And to Simon he gave the name Peter: 17 And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he named them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder: 18 And Andrew and Philip, and Bartholomew and Matthew, and Thomas and James of Alpheus, and Thaddeus, and Simon the Cananean: 19 And Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. Matthew 10 2 And the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother, 3 James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the publican, and James the son of Alpheus, and Thaddeus, 4 Simon the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. Acts Of Apostles 1 13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode Peter and John, James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James of Alpheus, and Simon Zelotes, and Jude the brother of James. Luke 6 13 And when day was come, he called unto him his disciples; and he chose twelve of them (whom also he named apostles). 14 Simon, whom he surnamed Peter, and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew, 15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alpheus, and Simon who is called Zelotes, 16 And Jude, the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, who was the traitor. So, we see that James, Joseph, Jude and Simon are related to Jesus. But they are not the sons of Mary, but her distant kin and thus also Jesus kin. Therefore, they're existence does not disprove the perpetual virginity of Mary.
Thank you for giving us the "Ex Cathedra" statements. The immaculate conception and the assumption of Mary. What basis is there for either one of these ideas, other than in the mind of a Pope? There is no tradition written or otherwise to support them, and they are both of recent origin.
First of all, the Immaculate Conception is based in part on the Proto Evangelium: Genesis 3:15 (King James Version) 15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Therefore, since enmity always existed between the Woman, Mary and Satan, then there was never any covenant between them. Therefore, Mary never sinned. The Assumption is based on the fact that St. John saw Mary in heaven: Revelation 12 1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: There you go. Anyone can now compare the Scriptures upon which you base your beliefs and the Scriptures upon which I base mine. They can now make an informed decision. Sincerely, De Maria |
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Originally Posted by RickJ
AND if you read my post, that wasn't one that I said was recent. As to your argument about the number of "protestant" churches: Baptist churches are independent and even ordain at the local level, so there are going to be a LOT of them. The Pentecostals have several different organizations because they sprang up after the outpouring of the Holy Ghost (1900) in several different parts of the country. What these different groups teach is interchangeable, except for the United Pentecostal which does not accept the Trinity. And there is not really a lot of difference in what the vast majority believe. The differences are mostly about less important details and structure of the orginazation. |
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Catholic, Protestant ? What the... It is still about God and Jesus Christ... right? Then let us love one another as He has us :) G&P |
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Originally Posted by galveston
17. I say spiritual because all of us Christians are called brethren, as in the verse, Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity. … Shall we say they are brethren by race? … Again, if all men, as such, were His brethren, it would have been foolish to deliver a special message, Behold, your brethren seek you, for all men alike were entitled to the name … Just as Lot was called Abraham's brother, and Jacob Laban's, just as the daughters of Zelophehad received a lot among their brethren, just as Abraham himself had to wife Sarah his sister, for he says, Genesis 20:11 She is indeed my sister, on the father's side, not on the mother's, that is to say, she was the daughter of his brother, not of his sister. St. Jerome, Against Helvidius. If we were to argue for the literal interpretation of brother so as to insist on Jesus having siblings in this instance, then wouldn’t that redefine John 19:26-27? Jesus says to John, “Behold thy Mother.” Being redefined in our errant insistence on a literal interpretation would add John to James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Jude as siblings of Christ; which of course is nonsense. JoeT |
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I remain unconvinced, as do you. I am going to drop the subject, only because it is unproductive. I do want to clarify this in exiting. I will defend the fact of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ with everything within me. It doesn't bother me whether Mary remained a virgin or whether she and Joseph later had a house full of children. What IS important is that Jesus of Nazareth IS the Son of God. |
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Originally Posted by galveston
The virginity of Mary has been part of Catholic theology since Christ. Below we see the Council of Ephesus declare the Virgin Mary Mother of God as well as declare that Christ was begotten not made. To believe in anything other than Theotokos is to believe that Jesus Christ was made and not begotten: Mary birthed God, “conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit” (Cf. Luke 1) The fact that God resided in the womb of Mary is why Mary’s womb was like the Holy of Holies in Moses’ Tabernacle (Cf. Ex 32?-40). To suggest that God resided in an unclean temple simply would have been unimaginable in Christ's time and is as unimaginable as Moses failing to keep the Tabernacle ritually clean. Thus, we conclude that Mary received a special grace from God and made immaculate (without sin). If anyone says that the Emmanuel is true God, and not rather God with us, that is, that he has united himself to a like nature with ours, which he assumed from the Virgin Mary, and dwelt in it; and if anyone calls Mary the mother of God the Word, and not rather mother of him who is Emmanuel; and if he maintains that God the Word has changed himself into the flesh, which he only assumed in order to make his Godhead visible, and to be found in form as a man, let him be anathema. . Council of Ephesus (A.D. 431) Given the verse, Jeremiah 31:22 How long wilt thou be dissolute in deliciousness, O wandering daughter? for the Lord hath created a new thing upon the earth: A WOMAN SHALL COMPASS A MAN This establishes that Mary was Immaculate, protected from knowing the sins of Adam, protected from knowing the sins of men. How does one COMPASS Christ the man without ENCOMPASSING the God that is Christ? At the moment Christ was conceived God was infused; at that moment Mary’s Womb would have been spiritually clean; as clean as the ritual cleansing of the Tabernacle of Moses. Thus Mary’s womb became the dwelling place of God, a Holy of Holies. This Tabernacle would have remained pure as did Mary in her of life celibacy. Being literally full of grace, literally, full of Christ, would we, could we, expect less. I’ll go a step further, not only was Mary Ever Virgin, so was Joseph. … Mary was a virgin, so that from a virgin wedlock a virgin son was born. For if as a holy man he does not come under the imputation of fornication… the conclusion is that [Joseph] who was thought worthy to be called father of the Lord, remained a virgin. St. Jerome, Against Helvidius. Thus Mary was immaculate and virgin and Mother of God. She was the selfless handmaiden of God, blessed among women, full of grace; the “Mother of my Lord.” (Cf. Luke 1) What other person in the New Testament is honored this way? God was infused into Christ at the moment of conception, within the womb of Mary, Christ, who was man with God infused. Thus after the proper time, Christ was born of Mary as according to “Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus. He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father: and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. And of his kingdom there shall be no end.” (Luke 1: 31-33) Mary birthed Christ. Just as we call the woman that gave birth to us, we call Mary the Mother of Christ; conceived in her womb she brought forth a son, the Messiah JoeT |
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