[RickJ]

No, it does not... IF we presume that "later traditions" conflict with what was written there.

Do you believe there is a conflict?

Galveston, what do you believe about "Papal Infallibility? What do you believe that this term means?

[Wondergirl]

Your belief in Papal infallibility will forever keep you and I from agreeing. No bad feelings, I hope.

What does that have to do with the Bible, with the canon that was established? I don't think you know what papal infallibility means (and I'm a Protestant).

[RickJ]

Galveston, don't pretend that you know what I believe about "Papal infallibility".

I am sure you have no clue.

I invite you again to confirm:
a. what you believe the term means, and
b. tell everyone here what you believe Catholics are taught about it.

[De Maria]

Here is My Reasons

Why am I not Roman Catholic?

Because you don't understand Scripture.

1. OF ALL THE HUMAN TRADITIONS taught and practiced by the Roman Catholic Church, which are contrary to the Bible,

None of the Traditions taught by the Catholic Church are contrary to the Bible.

the most ancient are the prayers for the dead

We've never prayed to the dead. All the Saints are alive in Christ.

and the sign of the Cross. Both began 300 years after Christ... 310AD.

The sign of the Cross is contrary to Scripture? In what way?
1 Corinthians 1 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock, and unto the Gentiles foolishness:

2. Wax Candles introduced in church about 320AD.

Actually much earlier than that. The practice was inherited from the Jews but it was really a practice of necessity. They had no electiricity back then. Only wax candles with which to create light.

However, the candles in Catholic Church serve a double function. They also represent the lamps which St. John saw in heaven.

Apocalypse 4
5 And from the throne proceeded lightnings, and voices, and thunders; and there were seven lamps burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God.

3. Veneration of angles

Angels were always venerated by the Jews:
Josue 5
14 And he answered: No: but I am prince of the host of the Lord, and now I am come. 15 Josue fell on his face to the ground. And worshipping, add: What saith my lord to his servant?

and dead saints about 375

Those who leave this world in unity with Christ do not die but live.
Luke 20 37 Now that the dead rise again, Moses also shewed, at the bush, when he called the Lord, The God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob;
38 For he is not the God of the dead, but of the living: for all live to him.

4. The Mass, as a daily celebration, adopted 394AD.

This is from Scripture:
Acts Of Apostles 2 46 And continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they took their meat with gladness and simplicity of heart;

5. The worship of Mary,

We don't worship Mary. Never have, never will.

the mother of Jesus, and the use of the term, 'Mother of God', as applied to her, originated in the Council of Ephesus in... 431AD.

Again, from Scripture:
Luke 1 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Obviously, the term "mother of my Lord" means mother of God. Otherwise St. Elizabeth would not need the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to say that. Nor would St. John have leaped in the womb if the child in Mary's womb were not Divine.

6. Priests began to dress differently from the laity in 500AD.

Again, inherited from the Jews.

7. The doctrine of Purgatory was first established by Gregory the Great about the year 593AD.

The doctrine was defined then. But it was always practiced. Refer to the Old Testament book of Maccabees:
2 Machabees 12 46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

8. The Latin language, as the language of prayer and worship in churches, was also imposed by Pope Gregory I. 600 years after Christ... 600AD. The Word of god forbids praying and teaching in an unknown tongue. (1Cor.14:9).

That is precisely why Latin was chosen. At the time that Latin was adopted as the official language, it was the most prevalent language in the world. Therefore it was the most well known of all tongues.

And your interpretation of 1 Cor 14:9 leaves a great deal to be desired. It is not a prohibition, but an observation. If one speaks and teaches in a tongue which no one understands, he won't help anyone but himself. Therefore St. Paul does not forbid it. But he explains that it would be more helpful to the Church if someone could interpret the teaching of the word spoken in a Spiritual tongue.

9. The Bible teaches that we pray to God alone. In the primitive church never were prayers directed to Mary, or to dead saints. This practice began in the Roman Church about 600AD. (Matt. 11:28; Luke 1:46; Acts 10:25-26; 14:14-18)

In essence, the Angel offered a prayer of praise to Mary when he said:
Luke 1 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

A prayer which we imitate and continue. Otherwise known as the Hail Mary.

In addition, we see in Scripture that one saint prayed to another:
Luke 16 24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.

Oh and the term "dead saint" is self contradictory. One is either a saint and alive in Christ. Or one is not a saint and is dead in his sins.

10. The Papacy is of pagan origin... Clement, 3rd bishop of Rome, remarks that there is no real lst century evidence that Peter ever was in Rome."

You've believed a bunch of lies. The truth is that Jesus established the Papacy when He installed Simon as His representative. See Matt 16:18.

Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

But let us proceed to prove that Peter represents God.

Is Moses God? Of course not. But what did God say?

Exodus 7 1 And the Lord said to Moses: Behold I have appointed thee the God of Pharao: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

Why did God call Moses God? Because He appointed Moses as His representative before Pharoa and the people:

Exodus 19 9 The Lord said to him: Lo, now will I come to thee in the darkness of a cloud, that the people may hear me speaking to thee, and may believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people to the Lord.

And what did God do in the New Testament? God also selected a man to represent Him. Simon Bar-Jonah.

Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Who is the Rock?

1 Corinthians 10 4 And all drank the same spiritual drink; (and they drank of the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.

Christ is the Rock!

And the Rock turned to Simon and said, "YOU ARE ROCK and on this Rock I will build my Church"

So God gave Simon the name that represents God.

2 Kings 22 2 And he said: The Lord is my rock, and my strength, and my saviour.

Why? Because Simon now represents God before men.

Therefore Jesus also gave Him the keys to the Kingdom:

Matthew 16 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Thereby giving Simon the authority to save. He can open and close the door to heaven, therefore, he can save.

And so, the Pope, the successor of Peter, is the representative of God before His People.

11. The kissing of the Pope's feet began in 709AD. It had been a pagan custom to kiss the feet of emperors. The Word of God forbids such practices. (Read Acts 10:25-26; Rev. 19: 1 0; 22:9).

As stated in the previous response. The Pope represents Jesus Christ. When we kiss the Pope's feet, we kiss Jesus' feet. Do the Scriptures forbid kissing Jesus' feet?

Luke 7 38 And standing behind at his feet, she began to wash his feet, with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.

12. The Temporal power of the Popes began 750AD. When Pepin, the usurper of the throne of France, descended into Italy, called by Pope Stephen II, to war against the Italian Lombards, he defeated them and gave the city of Rome and surrounding territory to the pope. Jesus expressly forbade such a thing, and He himself refused worldly kingship. (Read Matt 4:8-9; 20:25-26; John 18:38).

But Jesus established the Kingdom of God in our midst.
Matthew 12 28 But if I by the Spirit of God cast out devils, then is the kingdom of God come upon you.

13. Worship of cross, of images and relics was authorized in 788AD. This was by order of Dowager Empress Irene of Constantinople, who first caused to pluck the eyes of her own son, Constantine VI, and then called a church council at the request of Hadrian I, pope of Rome at that time.

We only worship God. We venerate the Cross and images and relics in obedience to Scripture:
4 Kings 13 21 And some that were burying a man, saw the rovers, and cast the body into the sepulchre of Eliseus. And when it had touched the bones of Eliseus, the man came to life, and stood upon his feet.

Acts Of Apostles 19 12 So that even there were brought from his body to the sick, handkerchiefs and aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the wicked spirits went out of them.

14. Holy Water, mixed with a pinch of salt and blessed by the priest, was authorized in 850AD.

Directly from Scripture:
Numbers 5 17 And he shall take holy water in an earthen vessel, and he shall cast a little earth of the pavement of the tabernacle into it.

15. The veneration of St. Joseph began in 890AD.

This prayer is among the earliest prayers to St. Joseph, (from around A.D. 50) and also one of the best known:

Oh St. Joseph, whose protection is so great, so strong, so prompt before the throne of God, I place in you all my interests and desires....
Prayers to St. Joseph: To the Most Loving of Fathers

16. The baptism of bells was instituted by Pope John XIV, in the year 965AD.

Baptism means washing. Did you think that bells have souls?

17. Canonization of dead saints, first by Pope John XV in 995AD. Every believer and follower of Christ is called saint in the Bible. (Read Rom, 1:7; I Cor. 1:2).

The term "dead saints" is an oxymoron. Saints are alive in Christ. Anyone who is not a saint is dead in their sins.

18. Fasting on Fridays and during Lent were imposed in the year 998AD.

Imposed by popes said to be interested in the commerce of fish. (Bull, or permit to eat meat), some authorities say, began in the year 7OOAD. This is against the plain teaching of the bible. (Read Matt.15:10 1Cor. 10:25; 1Tim.4:1-3).

Actually this is to remember the multiplication of the fish and at the same to time to fulfill Jesus' prophecy:
Matthew 9 15 And Jesus said to them: Can the children of the bridegroom mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then they shall fast.

19. The Mass was developed gradually as a sacrifice;

You say this because you don't understand Scripture. This is how St. Paul described the Mass:
1 Corinthians 5 7 Purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new paste, as you are unleavened. For Christ our pasch is sacrificed.

attendance made obligatory in the 11th century.

Again, you say this because you don't understand the word of God:

Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in fulness of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with clean water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering (for he is faithful that hath promised), 24 And let us consider one another, to provoke unto charity and to good works: 25 Not forsaking our assembly, as some are accustomed; but comforting one another, and so much the more as you see the day approaching.
26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries. 28 A man making void the law of Moses, dieth without any mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said: Vengeance belongeth to me, and I will repay. And again: The Lord shall judge his people.

In other words, if you forsake the assembly, you trod underfoot the sacrifice of Christ and have esteemed His blood as unclean and have insulted the Holy Spirit.

Can't get much clearer:
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

The Bible teaches that the sacrifice of Christ was offered once and for all, and not to be repeated, but only commerated in the Lord's Supper. (Read Heb.7:27; 9:26-28; 10: I 0- 14).

The Mass makes present the self same sacrifice of Jesus Christ. This is how Jesus applies the graces of His sacrifice ONCE FOR ALL. It is not repeated. Is that even possible? Tell me, how can anyone grab hold of Jesus and put Him on the cross to kill Him again?

cont'd

[De Maria]

cont'd

20. The celibacy of the priesthood was decreed by Pope Hildebrand, Boniface VII, in the year 1079AD. Jesus imposed no such rule, nor did any of the apostles. On the contrary, St. Peter was a married man, and St. Paul says that bishops were to have wife and children. (Read 1st Tim. 3:2,5, and 12: Matt 8:14-15).

Again, this is from Scripture:
1 Corinthians 7 31 And they that use this world, as if they used it not: for the fashion of this world passeth away. 32 But I would have you to be without solicitude. He that is without a wife, is solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please God. 33 But he that is with a wife, is solicitous for the things of the world, how he may please his wife: and he is divided. 34 And the unmarried woman and the virgin thinketh on the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But she that is married thinketh on the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

21. The Rosary, or prayer beads was introduced by Peter the Hermit, in the year 1090AD. Copied from Hindus and Mohammedans 1090AD. The counting of prayers is a pagan practice and is expressly condemned by Christ (Matt 6:5-13).

No it isn't.
1. Jews were counting their prayers and using beads as aids in praying the 100 psalms since back in the Old Testament times.
2. The Rosary is a meditation on the life of Christ.
3. Neither of which is forbidden by Christ anywhere in Scripture.

The only way you can come to that conclusion is if you are twisting the Scriptures to your own condemnation.

22. The Inquisition of heretics was instituted by the Council of Verona in the year 1184. Jesus never taught the use of force to spread His religion... 1184AD.

The Inquisition was a defense against Jews and Muslims who were attacking the Church of Jesus Christ.

23. The sale of Indulgence, commonly regarded as a purchase of forgiveness and a permit to indulge in sin, began in the year 1190AD. Christianity, as taught in the Bible, condemns such a traffic, and it was the protest against this traffic that brought on the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century.

Indulgence is the word for keeping your treasure in heaven:
Luke 12 33 Sell what you possess and give alms. Make to yourselves bags which grow not old, a treasure in heaven which faileth not: where no thief approacheth, nor moth corrupteth.

Mark 12 43 And calling his disciples together, he saith to them: Amen I say to you, this poor widow hath cast in more than all they who have cast into the treasury.

Note that Jesus is advising that we should give the Church money (ie alms).

24. The dogma of Transubstantiation was decreed by Pope Innocent III, in the year 1215AD. By this doctrine the priest pretends to perform a daily miracle by changing a wafer into the body of Christ, and then he pretends to eat Him alive in the presence of his people during Mass. The Bible condemns such absurdities; for the Lords Supper is simply a memorial of the sacrifice of Christ. The spiritual presence of Christ is implied in the Lord's Supper is simply a memorial of the sacrifice of Christ. The spiritual presence of Christ is implied in the Lord's Supper. (Read Luke 22:19-20; John 6:35; I Cor. 11:26).

Spiritual truths are understood by the Spiritual man. Apparently your carnal mind has not believed what Jesus taught:
John 6 52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.

That is the precise description of transubstantiation. Jesus said it.

25. Confession of sins to the priest at least once a year was instituted by Pope Innocent III, in the Lateran Council, in the year 1215AD. The Bible commands us to confess our sins direct to God. (Read Psalm. 51: 1 - 10; Luke 7:48; 15:21; John 1:8-9). 26. The adoration of the wafer (Host), was decreed by Pope Honorius in the year in 1220AD. So the Roman Church worships a God made by human hands. This is plain idolatry and absolutely contrary to the spirit of the Gospel. (Read John 4:24).

How, I wonder, will the Church be able to forgive sins, if one does not confess them to a Priest?
John 20 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

27. The Bible forbidden to laymen and placed in the Index of forbidden books by the Council of Valencia in 1229AD.

A mixture of truth and lies.

Were Bibles forbidden to the laity? Yes. Bibles which weren't interpreted correctly.
Bible Burning and other Allegations

Jesus commanded that the Scriptures should be read by all. (John5:39: lTim.3:15-17).

No He didn't. He was challenging the Jews to check the Old Testament to see that He was there described. But He acknowledged that they didn't understand the Scriptures, that is why they didn't believe Him.

lTim.3:15-17

You mean 2 Tim 3:15-17. 1 Tim 3:15 says that the Church is the Pillar of Truth.

2 Tim is about St. Paul teaching St. Timothy to teach and preach the word of God. 2 Tim 3:15-17 merely says that the Scriptures are profitable but not necessary for such a task.

28. The Scapular was invented by Simon Stock, an English monk, in the year... 1287AD. It is a piece of brown cloth, with the picture of the Virgin and supposed to contain supernatural virtue to protect from all dangers those who wear it on naked skin. It is fetishism.

Not so. It is recognizing that God works through even material things. Just as St. Paul could pass on his blessings though handkerchiefs and aprons.

29. The Roman Church forbade the cup to the laity, by instituting the communion of one kind in the Council of Constance n 1414AD. The Bible commands us to celebrate the Lord's Supper with unleavened bread and the fruit of the vine. (Read Matt. 26:27; I Cor. 11:26-29).

The Scriptures also recognizes the Church's authority to bind and loose (Matt 16:19). It is by means of this authority that the Church forbade the cup to the laity in order to identify the heretics who believed the same heresy which you are repeating in that statement.

But Scripture is clear:
1 Corinthians 11 27 Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.

In other words, if we eat the bread unworthily, we are guilty of the body and the blood.
If we drink the chalice unworthily, we are guilty of the body and the blood.

The converse is therefore also true. If we eat the bread worthily, we have partaken the body and the blood. If we drink of the chalice worthily, we have partaken of the body and the blood.

30. The doctrine of Purgatory was proclaimed as a dogma of faith by Council of Florence in 1439AD. There is not one word in the Bible that would teach the purgatory of priests. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sins. (Read I John 1:7-9; 2:1-2; John 5:24; Rom. 8: 1).

Purgatory is clearly explained in 1 Cor 3:15
11 For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 13 Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

31. The doctrine of 7 Sacraments affirmed in 1439AD. The Bible says that Christ instituted only two ordinances, Baptism and the Lord's Supper. (Read Matt. 28:19-20; 26:26-28).

Since you already believe in Baptism and the Lord's Supper (Eucharist), I only need to prove five more:

CONFESSION
John 20 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

CONFIRMATION

Ephesians 1 10 In the dispensation of the fulness of times, to re-establish all things in Christ, that are in heaven and on earth, in him. 11 In whom we also are called by lot, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things according to the counsel of his will. 12 That we may be unto the praise of his glory, we who before hoped Christ: 13 In whom you also, after you had heard the word of truth, (the gospel of your salvation;) in whom also believing, you were signed with the holy Spirit of promise, 14 Who is the pledge of our inheritance, unto the redemption of acquisition, unto the praise of his glory. 15 Wherefore I also, hearing of your faith that is in the Lord Jesus, and of your love towards all the saints,

MARRIAGE

Matthew 19 6 Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder.

HOLY ORDERS
1 Tim 4 14 Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophesy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood.

ANOINTING OF THE SICK
James 5 14 Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

32. The Ave Maria, part of the last half in 1508AD. It was completed 50 years afterward and finally approved by Pope Sixths V, at the end of the 16th century.

The Ave Maria, in English, the Hail Mary is a prayer directly from Scripture.

Luke 1 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Luke 1 42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

Luke 1 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Mother of my Lord is mother of God.

33. The Council of Trent, held in the year 1545, declared that Tradition is of equal authority with the Bible 1545AD. By tradition is meant human teachings. The Pharisees believed the same way, and Jesus bitterly condemned them, for by teaching human tradition, they nullified the commandments of God. (Read Mark 7:7-13; Col. 2:8; Rev. 22:18).

I guess Scripture misunderstood that part. Let's see what St. Paul says:
2 Thessalonians 2 14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

Looks as though the Catholic Church is teaching Scripture. Whereas you seem to be rejecting Scripture.

34. The apocryphal books were added to the Bible also by the Council of Trent in 1546 These books were not recognized as canonical by the Jewish Church. (See Rev. 22:8-9).

Actually, Jesus taught from the Septuagint Old Testament which contains the Deuterocanon which you call the Apocrypha.

Luther took those seven books out in his attempt to discard anything which contradicted his teachings. He also attempted to throw out the book of Hebrews and the Epistle of James which he called the epistle of straw.

35. The Creed of Pope Pius IV was imposed as the official creed 1560 years after Christ and the apostles, in 1560AD. True Christians retain the Holy Scriptures as their creed. Hence their creed is 1500 years older than the creed of Roman Catholics. (Read Gal. 1:8).

I have no idea what you are talking about. The Nicene creed is a summary of Christian beliefs which is universally held by Catholics and Protestants. It was defined in the council of Nicea in the year 325 ad.

36. The Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary was proclaimed by Pope Pius IX in the year 1854AD. The Bible states that all men, with the sole exception of Christ, are sinners. Mary herself had need of a Savior. (Read Rom. 3:23; 5:12; Psalm. 51:5; Luke 1:30,46,47).

Although it was defined in the year 1854 in response to the objections of many Protestants over the doctrine which has always been held by the Church. The Bible does not say that all men without exception are sinners. Otherwise it would contradict itself:
Romans 5 14 But death reigned from Adam unto Moses, even over them also who have not sinned after the similitude of the transgression of Adam, who is a figure of him who was to come.

And it would also contradict logic which says that children before the age of reason can't sin since they don't know what they are doing.

We can confirm this truth because Enoch and Elijah went to heaven without experiencing death. Yet Scripture says, "the wages of sin is death." Therefore, neither Enoch nor Elijah sinned.

37. In the year 1870 after Christ, Pope Pius IX proclaimed the dogma of Papal Infallibility 1870AD. This is a blasphemy and the sign of the apostasy and of the antichrist predicted by St. Paul. (Read II These. 2:2-12; Rev. 17:1-9; 13:5-8,18). Many Bible students see the number of the beast (Rev. 13:18). 666 in the Roman letters of the Pope's title: "VICARIVS FILLII DEI." -V.5, I-1; C-100, l-l: v-5, 1-1; L-50, 1-1; 1-1-Total, 666.

Nah. You're letting your demon inspired imagination run away with you. The Pope as representative of Jesus Christ must be infallible. Jesus sent him to teach His truths:

John 20 21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you.

The Father sent Jesus to teach infallibly. Therefore Jesus sent His Church to teach infallibly.

38. Pope Pius X, in the year 1907, condemned together with 'Modernish", all the discoveries of modern science which are not approved by the Church... 1907AD. Pius IX had done the same thing in the Syllabus of 1864.

I never heard of this. Perhaps you could show an example. Otherwise we can relegate it to your warped imagination.

39. In the year 1930 Pius XI, condemned the Public Schools... 1930AD.

We can see why today in the United States where Humanism reigns supreme as the institutional religion of the Public Schools.

cont'd

[De Maria]

Cont'd

40. In the year 1931 the same pope Pius XI, reaffirmed the doctrine that Mary is "the Mother of God... 1931AD. This doctrine was first invented by the Council of Ephesus in the year 431AD. . This is a heresy contrary by Mary's own words. (Read Luke 1:46-49; John 2:1-5).

It is from Scripture:
Luke 1 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

And it is logically explained.

Mary is Jesus' mother.
Jesus is God.

Therefore Mary is the Mother of God.

41. In the year 1950 the last dogma was proclaimed by Pope Pius XII, the Assumption of the Virgin Mary... 1950AD

From Scripture:
Apocalypse 12 1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars:

42. (Revelation 17:9)The Roman Catholic Church is the Woman of seven hills

Another error which you make because you don't understand Scripture.

The Catholic Church is headquartered in the Vatican. On Vatican Hill. Only one hill.

Rome is associated with the Catholic Church because it is right across the Tiber. Rome sits on seven hills. But if we add Vatican Hill, that makes eight.

Compton's Pictured Encyclopedia, 1948, Volume 12, page 144, also tells us about the city of seven hills.
... the "City of Seven Hills."... the Capitoline, Palatine, Aventine, Quirinal, Viminal, Esquiline, and Caelian hills.. . the seat of the papacy, the head of the great Roman Catholic Church.

You forgot Vatican Hill. That makes eight.

In addition, the Protestant Bible, the King James says that the city upon which the whore sits itself sits upon seven mountains. Only one city meets that description:

Jerusalem. Lets look at this question in more detail:

Babylon described as a whore:

Revelation 17 1And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

Israel is described as a whore:

Hosea 9 1Rejoice not, O Israel, for joy, as other people: for thou hast gone a whoring from thy God,
Thou hast loved a reward upon every cornfloor.

Jerusalem described as a harlot (which is another word for whore):

Isaiah 1 21How is the faithful city become an harlot! It was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

Ezekiel 16 1Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations, ….15But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.

Babylon is clothed in finery:

Rev 17 4And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Jerusalem clothed in finery:

Ez 16 10I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk. 11I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck. 12And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head. 13Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom. 14And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord GOD. 15But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.

Babylon kills the prophets and saints:

Rev 17 6And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs
Of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Jerusalem kills the prophets and saints:

Matthew 23 33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. 37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Babylon is described as "that great city":

Rev 17: 18And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Rev 18: 10Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour is thy judgment come.

The "great city" is the city in which Jesus was crucified:

Rev 11: 8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. . The Kings of the earth gathered in Jerusalem to crucify Christ.

Rev 17: 2With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication

Acts 4: 26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. 27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

Babylon and Jerusalem are built on seven mountains:

Revelation 17: 9And here is the understanding that hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, upon which the woman sitteth, and they are seven kings:

Jerusalem is built on seven mountains: Mt. Goath, Mt. Gareb, Mt. Acra, Mt. Bezetha, Mt. Zion, Mt. Ophel, and Mt. Moriah.

Babylon is destroyed by fire:

Rev 18: 8Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire

Jerusalem is destroyed by fire:

Ez 23: 25And I will set my jealousy against thee, and they shall deal furiously with thee: they shall take away thy nose and thine ears; and thy remnant shall fall by the sword: they shall take thy sons and thy daughters; and thy residue shall be devoured by the fire.


God calls His people out of that city:

Rev 18: 4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Paul calls people out of Jerusalem:

Heb 13: 12Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. 13Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. 14For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

The harlot, Jerusalem is redeemed:

Isaiah 2 1The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Revelation 21: 10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

All of that is directly from Scripture. . Try as I might, I couldn't find any reference to Rome as a whore or harlot in Scripture. Try as I might I could find no reference to the Catholic Church as a whore or a harlot in Scripture.

43 THE PAPACY 8th head of the beast

1Egypt
2Babylon(Lion)
3Medo-Persia (Bear)
4Greece (Leopard)
5 Pagan Rome
6 Empirial Rome
7 Papal Rome(little horn power see daniel) 538AD vigiluis 2 - 1870 AD
8 Vatican- 1929 Lateran treaty Under Mussolini ( The beast that received wound on the head but healed will to perdition)

You are simply taking liberties with Scripture. You have absolutely no support for any of your conclusions. It is simply your Satan inspired imagination run amok.

12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

7Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Amen! It is the Catholic Church which made it possible for you to have the Bible which you so cherish. Remember that.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Curlyben]

Oh dear Lenox, seems people have been shopping for you...

[RickJ]

Ben, is that stuff MSG Free? If so, please tell me where to get some! :)

[JoeT777]

If this is true then you have a problem.

The RC traditions written in the Bible do not support the later RC traditions, and in some cases actually contradict them.

What now?

I don't understand, who says the Scriptures don't support RC Traditions? And which cases would those be that contradict them?

Yeah, what now?

JoeT

[galveston]

No, it does not...IF we presume that "later traditions" conflict with what was written there.

Do you believe there is a conflict?

Galveston, what do you believe about "Papal Infallibility? What do you believe that this term means?

Are you saying that when the Pope speaks "Ex cathedra" that is not equal to Scripture?

And as to some conflicts, I see that Jesus specifially said that NO apostle would exercise rule over the others.

Also Jesus told us to not call any man FATHER upon this Earth.

Jesus made it plain that His mother did not take precedence over any other believer.

And there is that thing about forbidding to marry.

I can give you Scripture if you want, but we have plowed this field before, so there's not mich point in it.

[Fr_Chuck]

First I will address marriage, it is not scripture or doctrine for Priests not to marry, it is merely a church rule, Like some protestant churches only having communion once a year, that rule can be changed anytime.

The fact is there are married catholic Priests and were even a married Bishop at Vactican II.
Only the Roman Rite within the catholic church has this rule, and even then, many priests who are married but come from Lutheran, Anglican, and Orthodox are allowed into the Roman Rite as a married priest, From my own line of succession, is one of the married Bishops who went back to Rome.

Also all of the Eastern Rites that are in communion with Rome allow married Priest. This is only a rule that is used in administration, as the Methodist require their pastors to go to the churches, the district order them to go, with the local church having little say,

Next the term Father is not a real title, it comes from common usage, and is used by Anglican, Orthodox, Epispial and more. In fact I would almost think there are more christian pastors called father than are not.
The actual title is priest or rector but the title father is used as a title of love and respect.

So the issue of marry is silly since it is not a issue, it has not part of their scripture, it is merly a church management tool, and the issue of father was one of title and giving them special status because of their title. Read the rest of the verse not just the one line.

[De Maria]

I can give you Scripture if you want, but we have plowed this field before, so there's not mich point in it.

Bring it, please. I'd like to compare the Scripture upon which you base your belief to the one upon which we base ours.

Are you saying that when the Pope speaks "Ex cathedra" that is not equal to Scripture?

Yes. The Pope speaks in the service of the Word of God to explain the Word of God. He is the servant of the Word of God. Not Its equal nor Its master.

Ex Cathedra means from the Chair. We find that Jesus made this statement when speaking to the Jews:

Matthew 23:2
Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

Why did Jesus' make this statement? Because God had appointed Moses' as His representative before the people:

Exodus 19:9
And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.

Note that Moses' understood and would SIT before the people that they might know God's will:
Exodus 18:14
And when Moses' father in law saw all that he did to the people, he said, What is this thing that thou doest to the people? why sittest thou thyself alone, and all the people stand by thee from morning unto even?

Exodus 18:15
And Moses said unto his father in law, Because the people come unto me to enquire of God:

This role has now been given to Simon Peter by Jesus Christ:

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus is the Rock. And by giving Simon His name, Jesus has signified that Simon is His representative to the people:

John 21:16
He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Also Jesus told us to not call any man FATHER upon this Earth.

The commandment says, honor thy father...

How does one honor his father if he can't acknowledge him.

Apparently the Apostles did not have any problem acknowledging fatherhood:
Philippians 2:22
But ye know the proof of him, that, as a son with the father, he hath served with me in the gospel.

Here St. Paul describes himself as a father to Timothy.

1 Thessalonians 2:11
As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children,

Here he describes himself and the other elders as fathers to their flocks.

Jesus made it plain that His mother did not take precedence over any other believer.

Please provide the Scripture. Because Jesus did not contradict Scripture and Scripture says that Mary is blessed above women.

Luke 1:28
And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

And there is that thing about forbidding to marry.

The Church forbids no one to marry. Anyone who wants to be a priest has a choice. He can marry or do whatever. But if he is to be a priest, he must keep God first:

1 Cor 7 32But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: 33But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

[Wondergirl]

Are you saying that when the Pope speaks "Ex cathedra" that is not equal to Scripture?

Do you know when any pope has spoken "ex cathedra" and what he said?

[De Maria]

Do you know when any pope has spoken "ex cathedra" and what he said?

Yes.

[Wondergirl]

Yes.

I was speaking to gal. I know you know, De Maria.

[Athos]

I was speaking to gal. I know you know, De Maria.

Interesting topic. Maybe a new one. However, the only two ex cathedra statements I have been able to find are the Assumption and the Immaculate Conception.

What strikes me about these two pronouncements are 1) their minutiae, and 2) the impossibility to challenge them.

One longs for ex cathedra statements re important matters.

[JoeT777]

Are you saying that when the Pope speaks "Ex cathedra" that is not equal to Scripture?

Ex Cathedra was defined by the first Vatican Council, Sess. IV: "We teach and define that it is a dogma Divinely revealed that the Roman pontiff when he speaks ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals, and that therefore such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves and not from the consent of the Church irreformable."

The only declaration made Ex Cathedra regarding doctrine that comes to mind immediately is that of is Ineffabilis Deus by Pope Pius IX on December 8, 1854. If my memory serves me right it may be the only case.

Pope Pius declared:

Accordingly, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, for the honor of the Holy and undivided Trinity, for the glory and adornment of the Virgin Mother of God, for the exaltation of the Catholic Faith, and for the furtherance of the Catholic religion, by the authority of Jesus Christ our Lord, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own: "We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful."

Speaking Ex Cathedra shouldn’t be confused with the infallibility of the teaching authority of the universal Church, magisterium universale et ordinarium. In speaking Ex Cathedra those words are taken to be infallible. The doctrine of infallibility is found in the following verses, Matthew 28:18-20; Matthew 16:18; John 14, 15, and 16; I Timothy 3:14-15; and Acts 15:28 sq. Infallibility of the Magisterium is based on Christ’s commissioning of His Church as a visible organ, with the universal authority to impose solemn obligations in order to be a member of a corporate unity in faith and morals taught, and governed in official service to the Church. We hold that Divine assistance protects the Pope from the liability of error in the doctrine of morals and faith.

Practically speaking, Christ does not leave us without establishing a means by which we can infallibly rely on matters of faith. Thus in commissioning His Church we receive a Tradition taught by Christ Himself through the Apostles and their successors, Holy Scriptures memorializing firsthand accounts of witnesses along with a theology and the Holy Church itself to infallibly teach and govern over the faithful. What’s at stake is the eternal disposition of the soul and the Catholic Church gives us that absolute assurance of salvation so often touted by others.

And as to some conflicts, I see that Jesus specifically said that NO apostle would exercise rule over the others.

Peter was specifically made the first Pope, a rock of a Pope in Matt 16:18.

Also Jesus told us to not call any man FATHER upon this Earth.

This argument is as counterfeit as they come. I suppose you don’t call your dad ‘father’. What’s suggested in Matthew 23:7-8 is to avoid those who would ask for obedience of faith as the Father in Heaven asks for obedience. Do you realize how just plain dumb this argument is?

Jesus made it plain that His mother did not take precedence over any other believer.

If Hevenly Angels give the deference of an obedient servant, I’ll certainly do no less. Refer to Luke, Chapter 1; “Hail Mary full of Grace blessed art thou among women, blessed is the fruit of thy womb.”

Tell me who in Scripture, besides Christ, is addressed by a Heavenly figure with such veneration, respect, and honor?

And there is that thing about forbidding to marry.

Marriage is not forbidden in the Church, rather marriage is encouraged. Unlike many Protestant Churches, devoice is strongly discouraged.

I can give you Scripture if you want, but we have plowed this field before, so there's not mich point in it.

We’ll do as many fields as you have time for.

JoeT

[De Maria]

...
And as to some conflicts, I see that Jesus specifially said that NO apostle would exercise rule over the others....

I just noticed that I missed this in my previous response.

That's not exactly what Jesus meant however:
Matthew 20
25 But Jesus called them to him, and said: You know that the princes of the Gentiles lord it over them; and they that are the greater, exercise power upon them. 26 It shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be the greater among you, let him be your minister: 27 And he that will be first among you, shall be your servant.

What did Jesus mean?

As I understand it, Jesus is telling the Apostles not to exhalt themselves over others, not to become bullies who throw their weight around. This is how I understand the term lord it over them

And Jesus says that if one of us is greater, he must be our minister. The one who is first must be our servant.

And this is the title of the Supreme Pontiff. He is the Servant of the Servants of Christ.

He serves Christ by serving Christ's flock:
John 21 17 He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep.

[Wondergirl]

Originally Posted by galveston -- And there is that thing about forbidding to marry.

De Maria said: Marriage is not forbidden in the Church, rather marriage is encouraged. Unlike many Protestant Churches, devoice is strongly discouraged.

I think (without going back to look at the context) that gal is talking about priests not being allowed to marry. Having grown up in a family with a minister father, I understand that as a very important "rule" -- very practical. I remember how absorbed my dad was in the life of his parishes. In fact, he told my mother when he asked her to marry him that his life, his first reponsibility, would be the church, and their marriage and family would have to come second. Amazingly, he was able to balance all three of those very well. Church members, wife, and children rarely felt neglected. He was an unusual man.

Btw, the mainstream Protestant churches are very much against divorce, but like the Catholic Church, do their best to reach out to divorced and cohabiting parishioners.

[galveston]

Are you saying that when the Pope speaks "Ex cathedra" that is not equal to Scripture?

And as to some conflicts, I see that Jesus specifially said that NO apostle would exercise rule over the others.

Also Jesus told us to not call any man FATHER upon this Earth.

Jesus made it plain that His mother did not take precedence over any other believer.

And there is that thing about forbidding to marry.

I can give you Scripture if you want, but we have plowed this field before, so there's not mich point in it.

Since there were so many replies to this post, I quote it again and give Scripture.

Matt 20:25-27
25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
(KJV)

[I]I see where you use the arguent that the Pope is a minister to the priesthood. Are you saying that he does not exercise authority over them, and over all the faithful Catholics? I think he does. Apostolic authority is ONLY in the spiritual realm, and Papal authority goes beyond that as proven by just how far it was extended just a few hundred years ago.[I]

Do you really think Jesus was refering to your NATURAL father when He said call no man father? He also told them not to be called "rabbi". Jesus was teaching against the human desire for titles.Do you not refer to the Pope as HOLY FATHER? That title belongs to God alone.

Matt 12:48-50
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? And who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
(KJV)

With these words, Jesus declared that not even His mother held a position superior to that of those who believe in Him.

I will concede that there are married priests, since Chuck says that it is so.

Now the tradition that conflicts with Scripture.

Matt 12:47
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
(KJV)

Matt 13:55-56
55 Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
(KJV)

John 7:3-5
3 His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.
4 For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.
5 For neither did his brethren believe in him.
(KJV)

The tradition of the perpetual virginity of Mary flies in the face of these Scriptures.

Thank you for giving us the "Ex Cathedra" statements. The immaculate conception and the assumption of Mary. What basis is there for either one of these ideas, other than in the mind of a Pope? There is no tradition written or otherwise to support them, and they are both of recent origin.