[Tj3]

Naw. He loved the Catholic Church, but was excommunicated. TPTB didn't love him. And it all could have ended so differently had politics not been involved. At least the Lutheran Church has kept much from its mother church.

The same is true for Calvin. Both wanted to reform the Roman catholic Church from within, but, as you say, TPTB showed that was not possible.

[450donn]

Where do you find it to ask other church members to pray for you.
prayer circle, prayer lists, phone chains for prayer and more.

So why not include those that have gone ahead, are they also not part of the "Church"

Chuck,
Look at James 5:16. Luke 22:32, for your answer.

[De Maria]

Several denominations believe that it is OK (and even encouraged) to ask Saints to pray for us.
:confused:So, what biblical evidence is there for that? :confused:
:)Peace and kindness,:)
Fred

Hi Fred,

Sorry I missed this discussion. Seems as though it was interesting.

Praying to the Saints comes from the doctrine of the Communion of the Saints which is based on the teaching of the Church as the body of Christ:

Romans 12:5
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

As we know, anyone who is joined to Christ has received eternal life. Therefore, all saints are alive and communicating with one another.

1 Corinthians 12:25
That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

There is no such thing as a dead saint. That is an oxymoron.

Romans 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This is confirmed by Jesus when He says:
Luke 20:38
For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

And we see a clear example of one saint praying to another in Luke 15:
Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Scripture also says:
Matthew 10:41
He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

Thereby showing that we can pray in the name of righteous men and prophets which generally compose the roles of the saints.

I hope that helps.

Sincerely,

[Tj3]

De Maria,

I find it interesting how you conveniently ignored the fact that all of these references are to those alive in the flesh, and ignored the prohibition that God gave against speaking with those who are dead in the flesh.

[sndbay]

Scripture also says:
Matthew 10:41
He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

DeMaria,

The scripture you have referenced in quote is directed as instruction against denying someone to speak as a prophet. He that recieves one who comes in the name of the Lord recieves a prophet's reward. WHEN YOU HEAR THE WORD AND ACCEPT IT THERE IS REWARD.

The opposite would be noted in Jeremiah
Jeremiah 11:21 Therefore thus saith the LORD of the men of Anathoth, that seek thy life, saying, Prophesy not in the name of the LORD, that thou die not by our hand:

Thereby showing that we can pray in the name of righteous men and prophets which generally compose the roles of the saints

If one prays in the name of righteous men and prophets other then Christ, they would be denying Christ and the glory of Our Father..

Christ said to ask in His name, so that the Father is glorified. (John 14:11)

Deny them self and follow me (to affirm that one has no acquaintance or connection with someone other then Christ) Matthew 16:24 Mark 8:34 Luke 9: 23

[sndbay]

And we see a clear example of one saint praying to another in Luke 15:
Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Sincerely,

This teaching was intended awareness about the Pharisees who were turning up their nose, to sneer, and scoff at Christ. (Luke 16:14) The Pharisees were trying to justify themselves before men, and would use the same method of conversation that Christ used against them. An imaginary Father Abraham cried to, being the method in which to example the intended concluded story.

What we can conclude in the teaching was that we are offered every word of help through all that was already heard of Moses and the prophets. And that one raised from the dead would not be accepted..

If we can't see and hear what Christ has given to us, then we are not one with Him... It is His ways, and His exmaple that we are to follow. Christ taught us how to pray...

~in Christ

[sndbay]

There is no such thing as a dead saint. That is an oxymoron.

Romans 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This references to both the spiritual world and earthly world being joined and connected through Christ.

Rightful we live through Christ who freed us from sin, and as servants we live unto God our Father within His house. We must do the will of God and what is pleasing in HIs eye.

Dead and buried in Christ Jesus so that we may raise just as He did. Dead to this world of sin, because we walk in Him,(righteously) and He is in us.(righteousness)
Be ye holy for He is Holy (I Peter 1:16)

Romans 6:7-8 For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Romans 6: 9-10 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Verse 11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This is confirmed by Jesus when He says:
Luke 20:38
For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
,

Rightfully so when we are His... when we do the will of God... when we follow... when we stay in the light.... Open ears and open eyes to see Christ is the Way..

Nothing here would say anything other then Christ being the way... Nothing saying that we should pray to saints.

Everything saying if we believe in Christ we hold stedfast in faith of HIM and sight of God our Father. And we pray to God for all, and pray to HIM in mentioning of brothers or sisters.

I Th 1:2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;

I Th 1:3-4 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

[sndbay]

,

Praying to the Saints comes from the doctrine of the Communion of the Saints which is based on the teaching of the Church as the body of Christ:

Romans 12:5
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

As we know, anyone who is joined to Christ has received eternal life. Therefore, all saints are alive and communicating with one another.

,

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

It is the Will of God that we be acceptable, proven of good, transformed in our mind to being perfect in the eyes of God. Therefore being many, we all are several that do walk as one in Christ, yet all do not have the same office (Romans 12:4)

The concluded message of this teaching for all is not to live after the flesh, but through the Spirit within us. (Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. )

if anyone is calling upon spirits... The idea of communication with the spiritual world is against the will of God... And I do mean spirits other then the spirit of God, the elected ONE.

[De Maria]

De Maria,

I find it interesting how you conveniently ignored the fact that all of these references are to those alive in the flesh, and ignored the prohibition that God gave against speaking with those who are dead in the flesh.

Do you deny that a saint is one who is alive in Christ?

Do you also deny that one who is not a saint is dead in his sins?

[De Maria]

DeMaria,

Hi sndbay,

I've read all the posts you've addressed to me and it seems there are a few themes with which we disagree or interpret differently.

We agree with prayer of course. What we seem to have a difference of opinion what constitutes prayer.

This probably stems from a difference in our definition of the word prayer.

To a Catholic many actions are prayers. If I ask you to pray for me. That request which I have addressed to you is a prayer. Why? Because prayer means request. Therefore, my requesting a prayer of you is my offering up a prayer in your name.

This is from Scripture:
Judith 8 33 But I desire that you search not into what I am doing, and till I bring you word let nothing else be done but to pray for me to the Lord our God.

3 Kings 13 6 And the king said to the man of God: Entreat the face of the Lord thy God, and pray for me, that my hand may be restored to me. And the man of God besought the face of the Lord, and the king's hand was restored to him, and it became as it was before.

Why do I feel comfortable asking you to pray for me? Well, because I believe you are one of the saints who has given her life to Christ and are therefore part of the body of Christ. Therefore, I feel comfortable asking any Christian to pray for me. Whether that Christian be alive on earth or alive in heaven.

I wouldn't ask Charles Manson for prayer, nor Adolf Hitler.

Though Charles Manson is alive in the flesh, he is, in my opinion, an unrepentant sinner and dead in his sins.

And Adolf Hitler, unless he had a deathbed conversion, is dead, both in the flesh and in his sins.

So, I would not ask prayer of them. Because the prayer of a righteous man availeth much. But God does not listen to the prayer of those who are dead in their sins:

John 9 31 Now we know that God doth not hear sinners: but if a man be a server of God, and doth his will, him he heareth.

The only way you could have trouble with this doctrine is if you believe that the saints die. Do you? Yet Scripture says:

1 John 5 13 These things I write to you, that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God.

So, tell me, do you believe that the Saints die?

1 Corinthians 15 18 Then they also that are fallen asleep in Christ, are perished.19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, the firstfruits of them that sleep:

The scripture you have referenced in quote is directed as instruction against denying someone to speak as a prophet. He that recieves one who comes in the name of the Lord recieves a prophet's reward. WHEN YOU HEAR THE WORD AND ACCEPT IT THERE IS REWARD.

The opposite would be noted in Jeremiah
Jeremiah 11:21 Therefore thus saith the LORD of the men of Anathoth, that seek thy life, saying, Prophesy not in the name of the LORD, that thou die not by our hand:

We believe everything we do is a prayer. Therefore, our offering a cup in the name of a prophet is our offering a cup in the name of a member of the body of Christ. Because every Saint is a member of the body of Christ. Therefore when we pray in the name of a Saint, we pray in the name of Christ Jesus:

Galatians 2 20 And I live, now not I; but Christ liveth in me. And that I live now in the flesh: I live in the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered himself for me.

Galatians 3 27 For as many of you as have been baptized in Christ, have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.

If one prays in the name of righteous men and prophets other then Christ, they would be denying Christ and the glory of Our Father..

You act as though anyone can separate us from Christ?
Romans 8 35 Who then shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation? Or distress? Or famine? Or nakedness? Or danger? Or persecution? Or the sword?

If we persevere in Christ, we will live in Christ forevermore. The Saints are members of the body of Christ on this earth and in the next life. If we pray in the name of a Saint we pray in Christ's name whom they are in.

Christ said to ask in His name, so that the Father is glorified. (John 14:11)

Deny them self and follow me (to affirm that one has no acquaintance or connection with someone other then Christ) Matthew 16:24 Mark 8:34 Luke 9: 23

1 Corinthians 4 16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ.

Sincerely,

[De Maria]

This teaching was intended awareness about the Pharisees who were turning up their nose, to sneer, and scoff at Christ. (Luke 16:14) The Pharisees were trying to justify themselves before men, and would use the same method of conversation that Christ used against them. An imaginary Father Abraham cried to, being the method in which to example the intended concluded story.

What we can conclude in the teaching was that we are offered every word of help through all that was already heard of Moses and the prophets. And that one raised from the dead would not be accepted..

If we can't see and hear what Christ has given to us, then we are not one with Him... It is His ways, and His exmaple that we are to follow. Christ taught us how to pray...

~in Christ

Where did you get "imaginary"? You do believe that Abraham exists in heaven and is the Patriarch of the Old Testament right?

So lets get past this imaginary business. If Abraham is real, then Jesus if giving us an example of conversations that are possible in the after life. Jesus is giving us insight into what happens after we die.

This is something only He can provide because He came from heaven:
John 6 38 Because I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me.

And this statement, not parable, not imaginary story, but statement of fact recounts how the saints relate with each other in heaven.

And these are some of the insights we can garner from this account:

1. Though the saints have died in the flesh they are alive in the spirit.
2. Not only are they alive but they are aware.
3. Not only are they aware but they communicate with each other.
4. Not only can they communicate with each other but they can influence and help each other.
5. Not only can they influence and help each other but they can influence and help us on earth.

[De Maria]

This references to both the spiritual world and earthly world being joined and connected through Christ.

Rightful we live through Christ who freed us from sin, and as servants we live unto God our Father within His house. We must do the will of God and what is pleasing in HIs eye.

Dead and buried in Christ Jesus so that we may raise just as He did. Dead to this world of sin, because we walk in Him,(righteously) and He is in us.(righteousness)
Be ye holy for He is Holy (I Peter 1:16)

Romans 6:7-8 For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Romans 6: 9-10 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Verse 11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

It seems that you agree that a Christian who has died is alive in Christ. So what is the problem?

Rightfully so when we are His... when we do the will of God... when we follow... when we stay in the light.... Open ears and open eyes to see Christ is the Way..

Nothing here would say anything other then Christ being the way... Nothing saying that we should pray to saints.

Does it say we shouldn't ask the saints to pray for us?

Everything saying if we believe in Christ we hold stedfast in faith of HIM and sight of God our Father. And we pray to God for all, and pray to HIM in mentioning of brothers or sisters.

I Th 1:2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;

I Th 1:3-4 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

This still confirms that we are all the body of Christ. That we are not separated from Christ even by death. And that the saints therefore live in Christ.

So, why do you act as though they have perished?

[De Maria]

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

It is the Will of God that we be acceptable, proven of good, transformed in our mind to being perfect in the eyes of God. Therefore being many, we all are several that do walk as one in Christ, yet all do not have the same office (Romans 12:4)

The concluded message of this teaching for all is not to live after the flesh, but through the Spirit within us. (Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. )

if anyone is calling upon spirits... The idea of communication with the spiritual world is against the will of God... And I do mean spirits other then the spirit of God, the elected ONE.

You are wrong. Communication with spirits through mediums of satan are prohibited.
Communication to evil spirits, satan and his demons, is abominable in the eyes of God.

But we are supposed to communicate to God, the Holy Spirit, through any medium which He has provided for us. Christ is that medium. The Church which is His body is that medium. His Saints which are His members are that medium.

John 4 24 God is a spirit; and they that adore him, must adore him in spirit and in truth.

[Tj3]

Do you deny that a saint is one who is alive in Christ?

Do you also deny that one who is not a saint is dead in his sins?

I would deny that a saint who has died in the flesh is alive in the flesh and that is the point.

You cannot alter scripture to say what you want it to say when it disagrees with your theological system

[sndbay]

Hi sndbay,

To a Catholic many actions are prayers. If I ask you to pray for me. That request which I have addressed to you is a prayer. Why? Because prayer means request. Therefore, my requesting a prayer of you is my offering up a prayer in your name. Why do I feel comfortable asking you to pray for me? Well, because I believe you are one of the saints who has given her life to Christ and are therefore part of the body of Christ.

Hi De Maria,

Prayer to the Father whether in gathering of people, or private... I feel we do no agree entirely... And the reason is that I feel comforatable when we are praying for one another, or for others of the bodily flesh that walk this earth. Praying is a righeous act of faith and belief in God. It establishes love and trust as the unity between servant and master. And any request in praying for another, is a fulfillment in brother or sisterly love.

Whether that Christian be alive on earth or alive in heaven.

Praying to saints whether to mean the spiritual saint or the angel saint, I feel it comes into the line of joining like the charmer.
Or consulter of communication,and favors with familiar spirits is a dangerous step toward an abomination unto the Lord.

Deu 18:10-11There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
Deu 18:12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

The only way you could have trouble with this doctrine is if you believe that the saints die. Do you? Yet Scripture says:

1 John 5 13 These things I write to you, that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God.

So, tell me, do you believe that the Saints die?

Clearly saint as you have mentions are absence from the flesh body and present with the Lord. They have returned to the spirit form. A living spiritual soul... Saints on earth within the flesh body I have referenced earlier. Dead of this world in Christ....

This does not confirm or suppose communicate with saints that are in spiritual souls.

[sndbay]

You are wrong. Communication with spirits through mediums of satan are prohibited.
Communication to evil spirits, satan and his demons, is abominable in the eyes of God.

But we are supposed to communicate to God, the Holy Spirit, through any medium which He has provided for us. Christ is that medium. The Church which is His body is that medium. His Saints which are His members are that medium.

John 4 24 God is a spirit; and they that adore him, must adore him in spirit and in truth.

So again what would your intended reason be? Christ is the the principle power and He too is the communication medium to the Father, why would you leave Christ?

[sndbay]

Where did you get "imaginary"?

The word is my choice in descripion of the Pharisees, who with their own teaching methods made up in their minds the teaching in which Christ rebuked. The Pharisees would use Abraham to justify their means of teaching.

So lets get past this imaginary business. If Abraham is real, then Jesus if giving us an example of conversations that are possible in the after life. Jesus is giving us insight into what happens after we die.

YES

This is something only He can provide because He came from heaven:
John 6 38 Because I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me.

YES

And this statement, not parable, not imaginary story, but statement of fact recounts how the saints relate with each other in heaven.

And these are some of the insights we can garner from this account:

1. Though the saints have died in the flesh they are alive in the spirit.

YES

2. Not only are they alive but they are aware.

YES

3. Not only are they aware but they communicate with each other.

YES

4. Not only can they communicate with each other but they can influence and help each other.

NO... No one gave him a drink, and scripture instead shows the intention being denied for sending help to his brothers.. For the reason known to us, that we all hold stedfast in The Word being all..
(Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.)

NOTE: We have to see that a period of time after this teaching, it was Christ who raised from the dead. It is He that is the answer to the plea of help .. A much better chosen One, then what Lazarus would be..

5. Not only can they influence and help each other but they can influence and help us on earth.

NO ... And in fact the scriptures go on to state that the disciple knew "It is possible... that the offence will come: but woe unto him through whom it comes!"

The offence they speak of is to make someone believe they can rely on anyone other then Christ..

[Wondergirl]

I would deny that a saint who has died in the flesh is alive in the flesh and that is the point.

But he is alive in spirit -- and can hear us?

[De Maria]

So again what would your intended reason be?

To ensure that God listens to my prayer. We believe that God listens to holy people. Who is more holy than they who have been perfected?

Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Christ is the the principle power and He too is the communication medium to the Father, why would you leave Christ?

Nothing separates us from Christ. The Saints are alive in Christ. Communication with the saints is to communicate with Christ through the Saints.

[De Maria]

I would deny that a saint who has died in the flesh is alive in the flesh and that is the point.

Do you deny that a saint who has died in the flesh is yet alive in the spirit?

You cannot alter scripture to say what you want it to say when it disagrees with your theological system

Where did I alter Scripture?