[tomder55]

Then again here is the news from Britain about their system :

A plan to bring in managers from the private sector to manage failing hospitals
Private healthcare managers could be sent to turn round failing NHS hospitals - Times Online

Cancer patient given a choice ;take the drug the system permits which gives him a 1 in 6 chance of living or go out of the public system to use a drug that would double his chance of survival... at the price of losing his NHS care for good.
Cancer patients ‘betrayed’ by NHS - Times Online

Nearly all UK hospitals fail hygene standards .
Only five out of 51 hospital trusts pass hygiene test, say inspectors | Society | The Guardian

20% of heart bypass patients dying because of delays in treatment.
The study, funded by the Department of Health, found the shortcomings were not to do with the actual surgery. The problems lay most often in delays in recognising that a patient was deteriorating after the operation, delays in getting senior clinicians to see a patient and failures to recognise that a patient had other, potentially complicating, problems.

Heart patients dying due to poor hospital care, says report | Society | The Guardian

Elderly women forced to pull her own teeth because of a shortage of dentists... and NHS dentists refusal to treat her. Dentists complain the new system forces them to provide "conveyor belt care" and to "drill and fill" to meet meaningless targets..
As the article points out ;this is a common problem
Pensioner, 76, forced to pull out own teeth after 12 NHS dentists refuse to treat her | Mail Online

Lung patients condemned to death because life saving drugs are denied them.
Yet the plans by NICE, the Government's drug rationing body, mean no life-extending therapies will be available to new patients because the cost of the most expensive exceeds its threshold of £30,000 per head.
Only the cheapest drug used to combat the condition will remain available for patients
Lung patients 'condemned to death as NHS withdraws their too expensive drugs' | Mail Online

Women in labour are being refused entry to overstretched maternity units and told to give birth elsewhere
Women in labour turned away by maternity units | Society | The Guardian

61 year old women told by NHS that she is too old to receive a routine heart operation .
NHS chiefs tell grandmother, 61, she's 'too old' for £5,000 life-saving heart surgery | Mail Online

One in eight NHS hospital patients still has to wait more than a year for treatment
One in eight patients waiting over a year for treatment, admits minister | Society | The Guardian

UK lagging behind other western countries in its use of new drugs and survival rates
UK lagging behind on cancer drug access, study finds | Society | Society Guardian

There are many more articles I found like this... but you get the point .

How about Canada ?

Colon cancer patient has to go to US to get needed treatment .
The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care by David Gratzer, City Journal Summer 2007

Women with tricky pregnancies sent to the US for delivery .

Canada, once able to boast about its high rank in the world for low infant-mortality rate – sixth place in 1990 – saw its rank plummet to 25th place in 2005
globeandmail.com: Health

In a report titled The Wait Time Strategy the number of days between decision to treat and treatment is listed. These are the average number of days waiting for December 2006 and January 2007.
Cancer surgury 68 Days
Angiography 28 Days
Angioplasty 17 Days
Bypass surgury 48 Days
Cataract Surgury 183 Days
Hip Relacement 257 Days
Knee Replacement 307 Days
MRI 105 Days
CT 62 Days

http://www.health.gov.on.ca/transfor...ate_032905.pdf

More than 400 Canadians in the full throes of a heart attack or other cardiac emergency have been sent to the United States because no hospital can provide the lifesaving care they require here. Most of the heart patients who have been sent south since 2003 typically show up in Ontario hospitals, where they are given clot-busting drugs. If those drugs fail to open their clogged arteries, the scramble to locate angioplasty in the United States begins.
globeandmail.com: National

Waiting times for surguries are at an all time high .
Wait times for surgery, medical treatments at all-time high: report

While we are heading hell-bent towards a Canadian system ;Canada is moving towards an American like system.
Canada inches toward private medicine | csmonitor.com

[Skell]

So basically what you are saying Tom is that no healthcare system actually works? Your's doesn't, Britains doesn't, Europes doesn't, Canada's doesn't, Australia's doesn't!

Perhaps Africa is the answer...

[tomder55]

Skell ,I began doing my research on your system. Like you said it is a two tiered unequal system. The people with the means have the option to supplement their health care and about a third of the people do so. Our system has it at 1/3 of the people already receiving public run medical care... so ours is already 2 tiered giving massive gvt. Help to select demographics.
I guess it is a matter of debate which system is better . Both are flawed .


Since I have never lived in a system that is run under a free market and consumer choice method ,then all I can advance is theory . The flaws of socialized and semi-socialized methods have already been demonstrated.

[George_1950]

Brown apologises for unacceptable failings at Stafford 'Third World' hospital...
There can be "no excuses" for what happened to patients at Stafford Hospital, the Prime Minister said today as he apologised to families caught up in the scandal.
Gordon Brown promised relatives they would be entitled to an independent review of case notes and said standards "fell far short" of what people could expect from the NHS.
A damning report form the Healthcare Commission yesterday detailed a catalogue of failings at Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust, which runs Stafford and Cannock Chase hospitals.
Dehydrated patients were forced to drink out of flower vases, while others were left in soiled linen on filthy wards.
Brown apologises for unacceptable failings at Stafford 'Third World' hospital | Mail Online

[Emland]

Brown apologises for unacceptable failings at Stafford 'Third World' hospital...
There can be "no excuses" for what happened to patients at Stafford Hospital, the Prime Minister said today as he apologised to families caught up in the scandal.
Gordon Brown promised relatives they would be entitled to an independent review of case notes and said standards "fell far short" of what people could expect from the NHS.
A damning report form the Healthcare Commission yesterday detailed a catalogue of failings at Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust, which runs Stafford and Cannock Chase hospitals.
Dehydrated patients were forced to drink out of flower vases, while others were left in soiled linen on filthy wards.
Brown apologises for unacceptable failings at Stafford 'Third World' hospital | Mail Online

They say the same thing when a local VA hospital is found to have mold covered walls and substandard treatment.

It should never happen - but it does - everyday.

[Wondergirl]

Hello tom:

That IS the line, isn't it? But, if someone shows up at an ER who needs hospitalization or long term care, they give him a band-aid and put him on the street. That is JUST SO!

If we're going to have this discussion, you're going to have to tell the truth. Facts DO count. I promise you, there are NO uninsured patients IN the hospital getting cared for.

excon

I disagree. Our library homeless guy (and my good friend) Jerry has had leg and foot infections over the years, has gone to an area hospital via the ER, was admitted, received IV treatments there for a couple of days, and then was sent to a rehab center for another 6 weeks or so of continuing treatment. Medicaid covered his expenses each time.

[George_1950]

I disagree. Our library homeless guy (and my good friend) Jerry has had leg and foot infections over the years, has gone to an area hospital via the ER, was admitted, received IV treatments there for a couple of days, and then was sent to a rehab center for another 6 weeks or so of continuing treatment. Medicaid covered his expenses each time.

Greenie

[NeedKarma]

Medicaid covered his expenses each time.

Isn't Medicaid a form of socialized medicine?

[George_1950]

Isn't Medicaid a form of socialized medicine?

Socialist, fascist, take your pick.

[NeedKarma]

socialist, fascist, take your pick.

So it should be abolished in your view?

Also could you tell me how you relate Medicaid to fascism (here's the definition)? Thank you.

[excon]

Medicaid covered his expenses each time.

Hello CB:

I disagree with your disagreement. Medicaid IS insurance. I'm sure they found a way to fit him in... I'm equally sure the ones who CAN'T fit it to any insurance program, get thrown to the curb - literally.

I say again, there are NO uninsured patients IN the hospital receiving treatment ANYWHERE in the wonderful free market system that we have.

excon

[George_1950]

Hello CB:

I disagree with your disagreement. Medicaid IS insurance. I'm sure they found a way to fit him in... I'm equally sure the ones who CAN'T fit it to any insurance program, get thrown to the curb - literally.
excon

Too much Kool aid; Medicaid is not insurance; it's an involuntary government transfer program.

[excon]

Too much Kool aid; Medicaid is not insurance; it's an involuntary government transfer program.

Hello again, George:

Nope, it's insurance PAID for by the government, who took it from the taxpayers who have no say in where it's spent. Feel better now?

It's six of one - half dozen of another...

If what you're saying is, that EVERYBODY gets the treatment they need in this country, then I STRONGLY disagree. If you don't think hospitals dump uninsured patients on the street, then I STRONGLY disagree with you again.

excon

[NeedKarma]

...it's an involuntary government transfer program.

Is every government program that provides a service considered "government transfer program"? What is actually being transferred?

[inthebox]

Hello CB:

I disagree with your disagreement. Medicaid IS insurance. I'm sure they found a way to fit him in... I'm equally sure the ones who CAN'T fit it to any insurance program, get thrown to the curb - literally.

I say again, there are NO uninsured patients IN the hospital receiving treatment ANYWHERE in the wonderful free market system that we have.

Excon

Medicaid is taxpayor supported.

As to your last statement prove it!

Yesterday I took care of a 30 something your old male WITHOUT insurance. He was in the coronary care unit because he "unintentionally" took meth. Then he left against medical advice.


You really don't have a clue as to how much free healthcare is actually done.
Why don't you go to your local county hospital or catholic hospital and ask the doctors, nurses, and administrators exactly how much costs they have to eat.
This issue is even more acute along the Mexican border.

Shriners International - Home

Children up to age 18 with orthopaedic conditions, burns, spinal cord injuries, and cleft lip and palate are eligible for care and receive all services in a family-centered environment at no charge—regardless of financial need.

If you know of a child Shriners Hospitals might be able to help, please call our toll-free patient referral line:

In the U.S.: 1-800-237-5055.
In Canada: 1-800-361-7256

Here is another

St. Jude Children's Research Hospital

St. Jude is the only pediatric cancer research center where families never pay for treatment not covered by insurance. No child is ever denied treatment because of the family's inability to pay. St. Jude is financially supported by ALSAC, its fundraising organization.

G&P

[Emland]

My sister had her gall bladder removed and was in the hospital for 3 weeks back in the 80s at Mercy Hospital in New Orleans. She has never had insurance.

I dated a young man that received treatment from St. Jude's for luekemia way back in the day. As far as I know they still treat without consideration of insurance.

[NeedKarma]

My sister had her gall bladder removed and was in the hospital for 3 weeks back in the 80s at Mercy Hospital in New Orleans. She has never had insurance.

So who pays the hospital in that case?

[excon]

Hello again:

Stop with the convincing... You're not going to win this argument by telling me about the exceptions to the rule.

It matters NOT who IS treated. It only matters who ISN'T.

excon

[Emland]

So who pays the hospital in that case?

I have no idea. Maybe the Catholic Diocese of that area? Mercy Hospital was a charity hospital. I don't know if they survived Katrina.

Hospitals treat without insurance and set up payment plans every day. A co-worker's husband tore up his shoulder in a go-cart wreck and was treated in the ER and stayed for a day or two in hospital. They worked out a payment plan. (They paid on it for years, though.)

My sister will be 50 this year and has never had traditional health insurance. She has never been turned away in an emergency, but doesn't go in for routine health checkups or for the arthritis that is setting in her shoulder because she doesn't want to pay out of pocket.

The healthcare is there, but it is getting so expensive that regular working folks can't afford it.

[excon]

Hello again:

YouTube - Anderson Cooper on "60 minutes": Skid Row patient dumping

excon